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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
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Bioxx

Encumberance Inventory system

144 posts in this topic

I think perhaps what might be missing is mass. Mass is the most important factor in weight, not size. By the formula W=m*g, weight = mass * gravity. Therefore a relatively small object such as an ingot of iron weighs more than a piece of wood of similar size. Size however is certainly a challenge to movement of objects as anyone who has tried to move any large non-heavy object can attest to. Perhaps a total solution might be a total weight carrying limit that can be increased with more experience while having objects take up certain number of spaces in your inventory might be a fair compromise. I guess you have to go back and think why humans invented all the transportation devices we have. Logically, we needed to move more things than we could carry with our two hands and strong back.

 

One thing that concerns me so far in reading all the comments in this thread is what Kittychanley stated about despawning of objects. I like the idea of having barrels/backpacks/vessels open inventory slots. That would add to the believably that you can only carry so much with two hands. As far as what Kitty said about despawning, building a vessel or barrel or a chest keeps things from despawning. But at the same time, it lends to the logic that if you can't carry it, don't mine/harvest/gather more than you can carry at one time.

 

That being said another concern of mine would be what devices could be crafted that could facilitate the carrying of larger/heavier objects. Since wheels supposedly did not come around (no pun intended) until later, what did people use to move things? For one, the American Indians used to use sledges - a simple two long branches with some leather stretched between them that dragged on the ground on one end. They even used dogs and horses to pull them:

 dog_travois_web.jpgimage206.jpg

I suppose that people could pull them too (Is that a child riding a dog? lol). Anyway, the encumbrance factor lends to co-operative play which is exactly the reason why humans gathered in groups then formed communities, villages, towns, cities, etc. Necessity is the mother of invention.

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 having objects take up certain number of spaces in your inventory might be a fair compromise.

That's been suggested more than once.  I'm curious if that's even realistically possible within the scope of things.  It seems to me like it would be a very, very huge change to the code (my apologies to the actual coders for inserting my uneducated opinion here).  Is there any other MC mod out there that has done this?

 

I still think the current system of assigning a size to each item, and restricting what sizes of items fit in what containers, works just fine.  It's just a matter of how logical to make it, vs how convenient for the player. This can exist right alongside a weight system, thereby incorporating both weight and volume.   A fishing pole is light, but you can't fit it in anything (is how it should be).

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OK this is a great idea in the sake of role play how ever i hope we can get a backpack for adventuring early on the slightly increase inv. or make there be more options than mule/donkeys to make stronger mounts and move more at the expense of speed or health or size for this i recommend the ideas in my post "zone based wildlife" with bigger/ large animal that can carry loads but move slower.

 

also CJHKing2, i like the idea of the sledge. it seems good in terms of making everything able to carry more. even dogs

Edited by snaketokill
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On the subject of units and the weight limit, there's a handy ratio:

16 Ounces to a Pound, 16 Pounds to a Stone. (Since 16 is a Minecraft-y number it rather justifies changing the ratio between the units.)

The average man can lift around 8 stone (another Minecraft-y number), or in this case 128 pounds, or 2048 Ounces. By capping the carry limit at this top point, it incentivises players to progress technologically, but doesn't force them to drag a cart around their base with them; you can easily transfer a sack of flour between chests, or carry a few rocks over to the build site from a cart. However, it's small enough that the player can't just lug 400+ logs around in their inventory. Suddenly the stone age feels harsher.

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I kind of like Bioxx's "let's not use real world weights" plan. So what if instead of using stone and all that we just use the word "weight" and use "wt." for short. 

So a single piece of straw might weigh 1wt. and everything else is just weighted relative to that.

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I, for one, would advocate for blocks (and logs) having quite small weight and volume. You see that blocks in item form is small, right? Let's just assume that it's light. A stone block would be lighter and smaller than a metal tool. Please do care about those who care about building.

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Miner, building will be a lot more gratifyinfg and interesting, for me at least, if I can carry only one stone block at time, or 4 planks at time.

Now in minecraft you can build a small refuge in literally 1-2 minutes.

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2 hours ago, Diego il Catanico Jr said:

Miner, building will be a lot more gratifyinfg and interesting, for me at least, if I can carry only one stone block at time, or 4 planks at time.

Now in minecraft you can build a small refuge in literally 1-2 minutes.

Well, I'm a miner and a fighter, so don't quote me on that.

Making players only be able to hold 1 stone block at a time would make even simple construction take days, days that quick-players like me usually don't have.

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13 hours ago, Konlii said:

I kind of like Bioxx's "let's not use real world weights" plan. So what if instead of using stone and all that we just use the word "weight" and use "wt." for short. 

So a single piece of straw might weigh 1wt. and everything else is just weighted relative to that.

I just took the name of the real-world weights, the main point was the ratio. Though if you only use one unit you're going to run into "10000 wt." at some point, for super-heavy materials like gold a stack of ingots would be unbearable.

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I'm with Miner - having to do more schlepping will in no way increase my enjoyment of my builds.  I ultimately dropped my argument with it though, because I'm sure that if building material weights are not made easily configurable, one of the first mods out for TFC2 will be a mod which reduces the weights of building materials to a sane number.  I could see there being two modes: a hardcore mode where building materials weigh a ton, and a builder mode where they're more like currently.  The hardcore mode would definitely make island hopping and survival more challenging.  And if you're looking more for the adventure and less for the epic builds, so you just need a basic home, that's probably appropriate.  Me, I like building big, and it's already enough of a grind collecting the materials as it is in TFC1.

As for weights, I think it would be justifiable to make some items - straw, flowers, powders, and feathers for instance - weightless.  The basic unit of weight should probably be a stick.  Which should be renamed a branch, btw.

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You can't have weightless items, lugging around 300 sticks is just as ridiculous as several metres cubed of stone. And since they're adding carts and such you probably won't be carrying much on your person anyhow.

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I did not suggest sticks be weightless, I suggested they could be a base unit of weight - 1.  Though if they were branches maybe they'd weigh like, 5.  There's nothing ridiculous about making minor things like straw, feathers, and flowers weightless.  Feathers are in fact basically weightless - I can in real life carry thousands.  Straw and flowers are such minor and easy to get items - or useless in the case of flowers - who cares if the player can carry hundreds?  Same with dyes.  Now if TFC2 makes these things more important, then maybe that's rethought.  But in the current game context, they'd be fine candidates for weightlessness.  There's no reason for the game to get all OCD about this and try and keep track of every gram.  When you get down to that fine of weight, the actual inventory space is more a limiting factor anyway.

As for carts, we don't know how they'll work.  I'd assume you can't run with one, or climb ladders.   I'd hope that jumping is greatly reduced so you can only jump up a block, not jump across chasms.  I'll probably still carry as much as I can on my person, so I can travel faster.

Edited by Darmo
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3 hours ago, PlatinumAltaria said:

I just took the name of the real-world weights, the main point was the ratio. Though if you only use one unit you're going to run into "10000 wt." at some point, for super-heavy materials like gold a stack of ingots would be unbearable.

Keep in mind these are completely arbitrary weights and Bioxx can set an arbitrary upper and lower limit for anything.  I really really hope no one is proposing we use a realistic weight for gold ingots and the like.  A standard gold bar weighs 27.5 pounds and TFC ingots look to be at least double the height of one of those.  A gold double sheet would just be stupidly heavy.

Also, weightless items should not be dismissed out of hand.  Obviously these women have their entire inventory filled up with sticks.

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44 minutes ago, Konlii said:

Keep in mind these are completely arbitrary weights and Bioxx can set an arbitrary upper and lower limit for anything.  I really really hope no one is proposing we use a realistic weight for gold ingots and the like.  A standard gold bar weighs 27.5 pounds and TFC ingots look to be at least double the height of one of those.  A gold double sheet would just be stupidly heavy.

Also, weightless items should not be dismissed out of hand.  Obviously these women have their entire inventory filled up with sticks.

Not gonna lie, those women seem pretty overburdened.

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1 hour ago, PlatinumAltaria said:

Not gonna lie, those women seem pretty overburdened.

lol

Anyway, if playability and believability are at odds I think you should err on the side of playability. 1 stone block taking up your entire encumberance is taking things too far, but depending on how well carts (or sledges at tier-0?) are implemented it may work that you can carry maybe a single full stack of stone blocks at a time on your person without hitting your weight limit.

Edited by Konlii
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Not forgetting the possibility of using pack animals or animal-driven carts, which would reduce the need to carry around stones. And I'd be quite thrilled with the idea of quarries for construction materials :)

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8 hours ago, Donjons said:

Not forgetting the possibility of using pack animals or animal-driven carts, which would reduce the need to carry around stones. And I'd be quite thrilled with the idea of quarries for construction materials :)

That is if you have animals in the first place. If you can only carry 1 stone block, then by density you can only carry 3 logs. We're talking early game here, when people scurry around looking for materials, ores, crops, and animals because they have none, and if they find it but can't carry it then... what? Settle here and there? TFC ain't Civilization, mate. You've got more islands to conquer and more fancy building to build.

Though now TFC2's going to have hex tiles too... Hmmm...

However, I kinda like the idea because it almost forces you to build a base to progress. Familiarizing an animal without a base is very difficult if you don't pen the animal or be there all the time for weeks, but once you get a pack animal, you could continue with the nomadic lifestyle (if you choose one).

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Magic might hold some possibilities for instance maybe you can craft pouches that can hold a half chest worth stuff but only one kind of item like a stone pouch that can only hold stone and maybe the more stuff is in the pouches the more magic it uses.

Also you could cast a spell on your donkey/mule that would temporarily allow them to hold more or move faster.

Maybe you could make item portals for when your mining you could just throw your items in the portal and they would come out the other side into a minecart/wooden cart.

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4 hours ago, Miner239 said:

That is if you have animals in the first place. If you can only carry 1 stone block, then by density you can only carry 3 logs. We're talking early game here, when people scurry around looking for materials, ores, crops, and animals because they have none, and if they find it but can't carry it then... what? Settle here and there? TFC ain't Civilization, mate. You've got more islands to conquer and more fancy building to build.

Though now TFC2's going to have hex tiles too... Hmmm...

However, I kinda like the idea because it almost forces you to build a base to progress. Familiarizing an animal without a base is very difficult if you don't pen the animal or be there all the time for weeks, but once you get a pack animal, you could continue with the nomadic lifestyle (if you choose one).

A cart isn't exactly advanced technology, you can make a sled with just sticks and logs. And it makes absolutely no sense to be able to lug a metric tonne of stone around on your back with no ill effects. For the sake of realistic gameplay there needs to be a burdensome limit on carry weight, because if there isn't there will be no reason to advance; the exact reason people tamed horses in real life was to drag stuff around. Also, not to be rude but people in the stone age were not known for their fancy building.

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2 hours ago, PlatinumAltaria said:

realistic

Ah.

Ah.

AH.

On 11/13/2015 at 9:58 PM, Bioxx said:
  • So one granite block is equal to 1 stone. Lighter stones such as Shale might be 0.8 stone per unit. Other lighter items such as a ceramic jug might only be 0.1 stone.
  • Player has some number as the default carry capacity. Lets use 256 as our max capacity just for discussions sake.

Bioxx said that.

Edited by Miner239
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14 minutes ago, Miner239 said:

Ah.

Ah.

AH.

The whole point of a weight limit is realism...

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2 hours ago, PlatinumAltaria said:

The whole point of a weight limit is realism...

Actually the whole point of a weight limit is to add a challenge and incentive to advance to higher and higher levels of technology or work together even more everyone helping to carry big stuff to their base.

the point as I understand was and is all about having fun playing a awesome mod.

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12 minutes ago, Wackypat said:

Actually the whole point of a weight limit is to add a challenge and incentive to advance to higher and higher levels of technology or work together even more everyone helping to carry big stuff to their base.

the point as I understand was and is all about having fun playing a awesome mod.

And how would one be incentivised to advance if the limit isn't swaddling? If I can get by lugging rocks around on my own there's no reason to go any further.

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I didn't say that realism wouldn't be involved I said that in this case realism isn't the main point

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4 minutes ago, Wackypat said:

I didn't say that realism wouldn't be involved I said that in this case realism isn't the main point

Ok fair enough. To be honest the best solution would be to make the weight limit configurable.

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