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Jed1314

Combat Overhaul cont. (2/3)

118 posts in this topic

After my relatively successful ranged overhaul thread, I present part 2 of my 3 part “combat overhaul†idea. This was developed off the back of many suggestions and conversations with users including: Boea, Daxx367 and Srgnoodles, so my thanks (and some of the credit ;) ), goes to them :) ​As per usual, images will be uploaded as and when I can complete them :)

A prologue:

There is a misconception amongst some, that the sword was the tool for any job (if that job was killing). This is not true. The sword (especially in the period from the beginning of the bronze age right through to the middle ages) was a slashing weapon, made to be swung, as opposed to thrusted. This meant that other weapons were used to defeat armoured knights, before thrusting swords became more viable due to advancements in heat treatment and armoring techniques. The mace was one of these weapons, used because the damage was transmitted through the armor, as it relied on crushing force, not sharp cutting. As technology advanced towards the beginning/middle of the 15th century, two handed weapons gained popularity as plate armor improved, allowing the knight to drop the shield and opt for more power, safe in his strong plate, yet the mobile and light infantryman retained relevance through this period, such as at the battle of agincourt, where the French aristocracy were massacred by english “commonersâ€. It is this sense of change in military tactics, and the weapons used, I hope to capture with this suggestion

:)

Basic Premise: Change melee combat to bring equipment selection and skill into the equation more than the ability to spam mouse clicks.

New Features: Shields Three types of shield will be added, buckler (small round shield), Heater (stereotypical knight shield) and a scuta (or “roman style†tower shield)

Shield Bashing I feel this is self explanatory

Shield Infrastructure Including a shield slot, block button and block bar/stamina

Distinction between blunt and sharp weapons Swords will now be classed as a sharp weapon, while maces will be classed as a blunt weapon

Two Handed Weapons Essentially larger versions of the other weapons, with one addition

Use of existing features: The sword and mace used will be the same, with added features

One Handed Weapons:

The Sword:
The sword has been altered and set out as a sharp weapon (i.e. it relies on the cutting action of the sharp edge to do damage). All damage values will remain the same, however, as a sharp weapon, it will cause additional bleed damage against unarmoured (or lightly armoured) foes. Against heavily armored foes, the sword will do ¾ damage and will not cause bleeding

The Mace:

The mace has been set as a blunt weapon. It’s damage will be reduced to below that of the sword. However, the mace has two benefits. It has a chance to stun on hit (due to winding the opponent) and ignores 60% of the opponents armor. This will be balanced to ensure armor is not rendered obsolete by the mace

Two Handed Weapons:

There will be 3 two handed weapons. A sharp (claymore/bastard sword), blunt (warhammer) and reach (spear) weapon. These will have the same features as their one handed equivalents (spear will be elaborated on later). Two handed weapons will have 1.5x the reach of the regular weapon, apart from the spear which has 2x. Their damage will be balanced to be rougly 1.3 - 1.5x one handed damage. I had initially toyed with implementing different attack speeds, but this is overcomplicated.

Bastard Sword:

The bastard sword was a mid to high medieval weapon, designed to be used with two hands. It is the two handed equivalent of the sword. It causes more bleed damage and more hit damage, but cannot be used with a shield.

It is crafted similarly to a regular sword, but with a slightly different pattern. This will give Bastard Sword 1: Posted Image

The second step is to craft Bastard Sword 2. This has a different pattern to Sword 1 shown here, and is crafted with a double ingot:

Posted Image

These must then be combined as shown with a stick in the crafting bench to give a bastard sword:

Warhammer:

The warhammer was a blunt weapon, similar to a sledgehammer, which was used to combat armor in the medieval era, right up until the mid 16th century. It will be similar to the mace, but with 70% armor negation and a higher chance to stun. Additionally, the base damage will be higher, but still less than that of the bastard sword, a shield cannot be used.

It is crafted using this pattern and a double ingot. This will give Unfinished Warhammer 1: Posted Image

This must then be welded to give a warhammer head. This warhammer head must then be placed in the crafting bench with two sticks as shown to give a warhammer:

Spear:

The spear is neither a blunt, nor a sharp weapon. It does just less damage than a sword of equivalent metal, but more than a mace. It has no additional damage or debuff effects, but does not suffer additional damage reduction against armor. The spears advantage is its reach, as it has the longest attack range of any melee weapon, at 2x normal. Additionally, the spear can be used 1 handed with a shield, which reduces its damage by ½.

It is crafted with this pattern and a double ingot, to give a spear head: Posted Image

This spear head is then combined with two sticks as shown here, to give a spear:

Shields:

Note:
In real life, large shields are not made of metal. They are, at best, metal banded. However, for the sake of reasonable game progression, I have decided to incorporate metal shields. Apologies to those of you out there who acknowledge the flaws with this move.

The shield will act as a defensive barrier, as it has done for thousands of years. It will not add to your armor value, but will absorb damage before it reaches the player, with increasing effectiveness as the material advances. Blocking only works if the attack hits the shield, so if the attack hits Steve past the shield, no damage is avoided. The first thing to be established is the concept of a “block bar†which limits the time Steve can block for. How quickly this degrades will depend on the shield. Shield bashing will further drain this bar, preventing “spammingâ€. Here is a mock up of the block bar (Note-other possible methods, see “stamina†section):

The second is the concept of a shield bash. This is necessary to break out of “defensive loops†where shield users must break free of a relentless attack. This could be done by right/left clicking while blocking.

Buckler:

The buckler will be the smallest of the shields, not much larger than Steve’s hand, perhaps covering half of his torso. This shield will be the “lightest†so will drain the block bar slowest, however, as it is so small, chance to block attacks is only 40%. The player can still move at full speed while blocking with this shield. The shield bash of the buckler will be the MOST powerful (I know this seems counter intuitive, but it is possible to use far more effective “shield bashing†techniques with smaller shields, such as aiming for the visor of the opponent etc.). The bash will cause damage and have a chance to stun.

The buckler will be made with this pattern and a double sheet or with this pattern of planks: Posted Image

This will give a finished buckler (as they are small).

Heater:

The Heater shield will be the middle shield, which will cover all of Steve’s torso, but little/none of his legs, because of this, chance to block is 60%. The player can’t sprint with this shield but is not slowed down. Its weight is more than the buckler, so the block bar will drain faster.

The shield bash will be less powerful than the buckler, causing knockback and damage (less damage than the buckler). The Heater will be made with this pattern and a double sheet to give Unfinished Shield 1, or this pattern of planks to give a finished wooden Heater: Posted Image

This must then be welded with another single sheet to give a finished Heater Shield (for metal shields).

Scuta/Tower Shield:

The Scuta will be the largest of the shields, covering ¾ of Steve’s body, meaning the chance to block is 80%. The player moves at crouching speed constantly when blocking with this shield, whether crouched or not. It is the heaviest of the shields, so it drains the block bar quickly.

The shield bash is weak, due to the weight of the shield, and only causes knockback.

The Scuta will be made with this pattern and a double sheet to give Unfinished Scuta 1, or this pattern of planks to give a finished wooden Scuta: Posted Image

This must then be welded with another double sheet to give a finished Scuta (for metal shields).

Stamina:

Stamina is actually the only part of this mod I would consider “non essential†to the balance. The basic concept is replacing the “block bar†with a “stamina bar†which would control both blocking and attacking. Swinging weapons would take a small amount of stamina, with two handed weapons using more per swing. I was considering this problem and came up with a solution. Could stamina be tied in with smart moving mods stamina bar for sprint I wonder ?

Just_Another_Guy_ :) has been very active in helping support/develop this suggestion, and has now compiled a list of different "classes" you could be in this suggestion. It's worth noting that you aren't forced to pick any of these, as you can change "class" with a simple equipment change, no skills, no attributes, no grinding :D

Link: http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/1101-combat-classes/

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Buckler Crafting (wood):

Posted Image

Heater Crafting (wood):

Posted Image

Tower Crafting (wood):

Posted Image

Bastard Sword Crafting:

Posted Image

Warhammer Crafting:

Posted Image

Spear Crafting:

Posted Image

Block Bar: This one is particularly bad, sorry guys :S

Posted Image

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Looks amazing, but only the first and last spoilers will open :(

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I'd love to see this implemented. Maybe, you can have an extra slot for the shield/second weapon* and another for the weapon -I know this already exist in other mod, but i can't remember which xDU-.

*by this i mean, one could of course choose to use a sword/mace and a shield, but also you could choose using two swords, two maces or one of each. This way, even if you can't block -which is pretty bad sometimes...- you could attack at the double hit rate, and if you use both at the same time, with no damage lost -technically- and with both the side effects of the weapons.

In order to balance this, it could be harder to get those bonuses when using both weapons at the same time.

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Looks amazing, but only the first and last spoilers will open :(

Should be fixed ?

I'd love to see this implemented. Maybe, you can have an extra slot for the shield/second weapon* and another for the weapon -I know this already exist in other mod, but i can't remember which xDU-.

*by this i mean, one could of course choose to use a sword/mace and a shield, but also you could choose using two swords, two maces or one of each. This way, even if you can't block -which is pretty bad sometimes...- you could attack at the double hit rate, and if you use both at the same time, with no damage lost -technically- and with both the side effects of the weapons.

In order to balance this, it could be harder to get those bonuses when using both weapons at the same time.

Dual wielding in MC is too overpowered , as with heavy armor and two weapons, you'd be unstoppable in melee. It is a possibility actually, lets see what other people think :)

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JDCollie had a similar thread to this, which was shot down- believe it or not- for being too good.

This is almost the same, but a little more feasible I think.

Also, I am in love with your formatting.

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JDCollie had a similar thread to this, which was shot down- believe it or not- for being too good.

This is almost the same, but a little more feasible I think.

Also, I am in love with your formatting.

For being too good ? As in creating issues with game balance ? (because I have a cunning plan to solve that :))

Thanks ! I just decided to come up with a good format for all my suggestions posts and stick to it to make it simple for everyone ;)

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Dual wielding in MC is too overpowered , as with heavy armor and two weapons, you'd be unstoppable in melee. It is a possibility actually, lets see what other people think :)

If it's wearing heavy armor it would lose the hit rate bonus, as it would slow him down as much as the fact of having two weapons speeds him up. That, plus slow movement speed beacuse of the armor, and no possibilities to block, make the player, though pretty resistant, pretty easy as well to defeat. So, another player in leather armor and using a composite bow, could take down the first player before it even reaches it.

The idea of a dual wielding player is to be as fast as possible in both attack and movement. As he attacks faster, even if his weapons do little damage, it can give a good hit to the enemy. As he moves faster -due to light armor, if he has it at all-, he can avoid hits by simply moving out of the way of the attack, this covering the function of the blocking. Due to this, a heavy armored player with a good crossbow can take the first player down with a good shot, since the crossbow could easily break any armor the enemy has and still make good amount of damage. And if the ammunition was in any way poisoned, even worse.

Yep, right now, around what you have already showed up about your combat overhaul, i'm making here a chart with something like "classes"... The only differences are:

-You can -with some effort- change from one of them to other, or even have your own class -your own combat style, that is-.

-It's not based on some kind of statistic you can make Steve train and level up, but in logic and tech level. For example, what you saw up there were a Warrior4 player and an Archer3 player. In the case exposed, both were supposed to be at their max tech level; however, if the W4 player were at max tech level, and the A3 player was a newbie in his class -this meaning he just reached the tech level for being able to have a crossbow-, the W4 player would take the victory.

EDIT: yey, reached a hundred post :D

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If it's wearing heavy armor it would lose the hit rate bonus, as it would slow him down as much as the fact of having two weapons speeds him up. That, plus slow movement speed beacuse of the armor, and no possibilities to block, make the player, though pretty resistant, pretty easy as well to defeat. So, another player in leather armor and using a composite bow, could take down the first player before it even reaches it.

Firstly, I love the fact you linked up the two overhauls already :) You are quite right, I am trying to base this on classic "rock, paper, scissors" RTS games, so you have hit the nail on the head :)

Yep, right now, around what you have already showed up about your combat overhaul, i'm making here a chart with something like "classes"... The only differences are:

-You can -with some effort- change from one of them to other, or even have your own class -your own combat style, that is-.

-It's not based on some kind of statistic you can make Steve train and level up, but in logic and tech level. For example, what you saw up there were a Warrior4 player and an Archer3 player. In the case exposed, both were supposed to be at their max tech level; however, if the W4 player were at max tech level, and the A3 player would be a newbie in his class -this meaning he just reached the tech level for being able to have a crossbow-, the W4 player would take the victory.

Pretty much mate :) The idea is that people will go down a certain route with their tech and you'll end up with people all tailoring themselves to different situations, it makes for much more dynamic combat :)

I will possibly add duel wielding after I have finished all the pics for what's already here :)

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For being too good ? As in creating issues with game balance ? (because I have a cunning plan to solve that :))

Thanks ! I just decided to come up with a good format for all my suggestions posts and stick to it to make it simple for everyone ;)

No no, it was actually VERY well balanced. I was highly impressed by that thread.

No, it was simply so well thought out and detailed that it would have taken months for bioxx to code, and more closely resembled the D&D battle system than minecraft. It was brilliant, but unfortunately just too much.

What you have here seems to be a sort of marriage of the two. Me Gusta.

incidentally, that thread is where my sig is from

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No no, it was actually VERY well balanced. I was highly impressed by that thread.

No, it was simply so well thought out and detailed that it would have taken months for bioxx to code, and more closely resembled the D&D battle system than minecraft. It was brilliant, but unfortunately just too much.

What you have here seems to be a sort of marriage of the two. Me Gusta.

incidentally, that thread is where my sig is from

I remember that thread ! You weren't allowed to use non weapons for attacking etc. I was a fan myself and I think I actually remember seeing your comment :P

I hope you like the third and final part of the overhaul, I'll probably have it done before the end of work tomorrow. Either that, or I could do it now and finish the pictures for both this and the 3rd part later. Thoughts ?

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One thing i forgot to point out in the upper post, it would be resource expensive, inventory space inefficient and nearly impossible to have everything prepared to change from one class to other in matter of seconds, as, firstly, there are no classes which combined can defeat anything which walks in their way, so you should need to bring with you 3, 4 or even more different sets for every class -as some of them use totally different equipments-, and secondly, while you change your set, the opponent has a perfect oportunity to hit you, which could end in you dying before being able to hit back.

I'd prefer you to finish the pictures first and then posting the second part... just a preference :)

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Thats all the crafting pics done :)

I will have the block bar up ASAP, however, I had a thought: to quote the post -

Stamina is actually the only part of this mod I would consider “non essential†to the balance. The basic concept is replacing the “block bar†with a “stamina bar†which would control both blocking and attacking. Swinging weapons would take a small amount of stamina, with two handed weapons using more per swing. I was considering this problem and came up with a solution. Could stamina be tied in with smart moving mods stamina bar for sprint I wonder ?

Could that be implemented ? I am aware of the implications r.e. forcing people to install a different mod and getting permission from the author etc. Just a thought :)

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I like the stamina concept... now, if it can or can not be implemented, i don't really know ._.

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I like the stamina concept... now, if it can or can not be implemented, i don't really know ._.

I feel your pain, I know nothing about programming, so I can never tell where the line between "easy" and "9 weeks coding spree" is :S
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I feel your pain, I know nothing about programming, so I can never tell where the line between "easy" and "9 weeks coding spree" is :S

Well I did Visual Basic (and a little bit of Java, Minecraft's code language) in high school, so I get the basic concepts... and I'm learning Forth cuz of Eloraam... but as you said, it is hard to tell. Some of this stuff tho (mostly in part 3) is just nightmarish

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Should be fixed ?

Only the two handed weapons spoiler, and only the first paragraph.

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Well I did Visual Basic (and a little bit of Java, Minecraft's code language) in high school, so I get the basic concepts... and I'm learning Forth cuz of Eloraam... but as you said, it is hard to tell. Some of this stuff tho (mostly in part 3) is just nightmarish

I have/am (depending on when you read this) restructured combat overhauls 2 and 3. This is to make everything a bit easier to code. I will list the changes here:

Removed the concept of "shield size". This has been replaced with %chance to block to make it easier to code.

Removed the "attack speed" of 2 handed weapons. Attack will now be balanced to give less damage per hit (still more than 1h) than before, but the same dps.

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After my relatively successful ranged overhaul thread, I present part 2 of my 3 part “combat overhaul†idea. This was developed off the back of many suggestions and conversations with users including: Boea, Daxx367 and Srgnoodles, so my thanks (and some of the credit ;) ), goes to them :) ​As per usual, images will be uploaded as and when I can complete them :)

Yay I'm in there!! :)

I'm liking all of this, just look at my post on the first one. :)

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Thanks a lot man :)

I really appreciate the support,

Yay I'm in there!! :)

I'm liking all of this, just look at my post on the first one. :)

Thanks a lot man :)

I really appreciate the support :P

And of course you're in there :) You were instrumental in the development of the shields :P

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wow no offence but this is almost exactly like the sheilds post i made

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wow no offence but this is almost exactly like the sheilds post i made http://terrafirmacra...s-and-blocking/

I know it is similar, but I changed a lot of things.

For example, I added 3 types of shield instead of 1, the shield works totally differently because it doesn't add to your armour and also it deals with weapons as well, shields were just one part of it.

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This is funny, because back in february, I was working through this exact mechanic. I will be implementing it. Maces will have an advantage in certain aspects over swords, such as shooting skeletons. There will be 3 types of weapon damage and certain elemental damages. There will be slash, stab and smash. Slash is from swords, and is effective against zombies, spiders, (things with skin, basically) and leather armour, (it gets cut up). Stab is from knives, arrows, and javelins. Stab is effective against leather armour and things with skin, but horribly useless against skeletons. Chain armour is resistant to it, and it is mildly ok against plate armour. (I forget if chain armour was added in... was it? It might, idk). Finally, crush. Crush is inflicted minorly by swords, but predominantly by maces.

As far as mobs go, wolves deal stab and crush damage (teeth), bear deal crush and slash damage (claws). Most other animals deal crush damage. Zombies are crush, as well as endermen. Skeletons are obviously stab. Spiders are crush.

Another thing that must be accounted for is armour damage. Armour will not take damage as it currently does, nor will it maintain its full use as if it were fully repaired, although the amount of protection will not deminish as it does in vanilla. Instead, armour will have a certain chance to protect you. If your armour is at 50% health, than there is roughly a 50% chance it won't protect you (imagine theres a big gaping hole in your armour. At 50% health, half the armour is gone and 50% of attacks will hit YOU instead of the armour)

Armour will also withstand certain attacks better than others, but will not necessarily protect you from these attacks. For example, leather armour will take a hefty bit of damage from slash and stab attacks, but you will be mostly shielded from these attacks, whereas crush damage does very little to it, as it is soft and can be compressed, but in turn, does little more than provide a thin padding between you and the attack.

Much the same, mail armour (assuming it exists) would protect you from slash very well, while taking only moderate damage, would protect you from stab very well while taking slightly more damage, and would protect you from crush quite poorly while taking minimal damage.

Plate armour will protect you from stab VERY well, (although we might add a small chance for the stab to go between the armour plates and hit you) while taking nearly no damage, would protect you from slash very well while taking minimal damage and would protect you from crush very well, but sustaining a fair amount of damage (imagine the metal being bent)

Obviously, this means we will have to implement a weight factor as well (another suggestion), which means that heavy plate armours will be quite a hindrance, slowing your walking and running speed, exhausting you faster, and might also have an effect on how much you can pull your bow back or the distance you can throw your javelin.

I did mention elemental damage, so I will go over that. (explosions will probably count as a very high degree of crush damage) Elemental damage represents damage in the form of cold, fire, electrical, and poison.

(cold damage will probably be implemented in the future). These elemental damages will probably be part of weapon enchantments, such as fire aspect. Anyway, fire obviously inflicts fire damage, which is minorly blocked by leather armour, although does significant damage to it. Metal armour generally increases the damage fire does, but does little damage to the armour itself. Cold damage is blocked significantly by leather armour, and might be intensified by metal armour. Neither takes damage from cold armour. Certain metals will protect you from electrical damage more than others. Some will act as Faraday cages, while others might electrocute you. Leather offers reasonable protection, but not much. Currently, electrical damage will only be inflicted by lightning.

Finally, to go over tools. Pick axes will deal stab and crush damage. Axes will deal slash and crush damage. Random items will deal crush damage. Shovels will deal crush damage. Pro picks will deal stab and crush damage. Hammers will deal crush damage. Chisels, hoes and saws won't do any extra damage at all, but chisels will be stab and hoes will be stab/crush. Scythes will be slash.

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This is funny, because back in february, I was working through this exact mechanic. I will be implementing it. Maces will have an advantage in certain aspects over swords, such as shooting skeletons. There will be 3 types of weapon damage and certain elemental damages. There will be slash, stab and smash. Slash is from swords, and is effective against zombies, spiders, (things with skin, basically) and leather armour, (it gets cut up). Stab is from knives, arrows, and javelins. Stab is effective against leather armour and things with skin, but horribly useless against skeletons. Chain armour is resistant to it, and it is mildly ok against plate armour. (I forget if chain armour was added in... was it? It might, idk). Finally, crush. Crush is inflicted minorly by swords, but predominantly by maces.

As far as mobs go, wolves deal stab and crush damage (teeth), bear deal crush and slash damage (claws). Most other animals deal crush damage. Zombies are crush, as well as endermen. Skeletons are obviously stab. Spiders are crush.

Another thing that must be accounted for is armour damage. Armour will not take damage as it currently does, nor will it maintain its full use as if it were fully repaired, although the amount of protection will not deminish as it does in vanilla. Instead, armour will have a certain chance to protect you. If your armour is at 50% health, than there is roughly a 50% chance it won't protect you (imagine theres a big gaping hole in your armour. At 50% health, half the armour is gone and 50% of attacks will hit YOU instead of the armour)

Armour will also withstand certain attacks better than others, but will not necessarily protect you from these attacks. For example, leather armour will take a hefty bit of damage from slash and stab attacks, but you will be mostly shielded from these attacks, whereas crush damage does very little to it, as it is soft and can be compressed, but in turn, does little more than provide a thin padding between you and the attack.

Much the same, mail armour (assuming it exists) would protect you from slash very well, while taking only moderate damage, would protect you from stab very well while taking slightly more damage, and would protect you from crush quite poorly while taking minimal damage.

Plate armour will protect you from stab VERY well, (although we might add a small chance for the stab to go between the armour plates and hit you) while taking nearly no damage, would protect you from slash very well while taking minimal damage and would protect you from crush very well, but sustaining a fair amount of damage (imagine the metal being bent)

Obviously, this means we will have to implement a weight factor as well (another suggestion), which means that heavy plate armours will be quite a hindrance, slowing your walking and running speed, exhausting you faster, and might also have an effect on how much you can pull your bow back or the distance you can throw your javelin.

I did mention elemental damage, so I will go over that. (explosions will probably count as a very high degree of crush damage) Elemental damage represents damage in the form of cold, fire, electrical, and poison.

(cold damage will probably be implemented in the future). These elemental damages will probably be part of weapon enchantments, such as fire aspect. Anyway, fire obviously inflicts fire damage, which is minorly blocked by leather armour, although does significant damage to it. Metal armour generally increases the damage fire does, but does little damage to the armour itself. Cold damage is blocked significantly by leather armour, and might be intensified by metal armour. Neither takes damage from cold armour. Certain metals will protect you from electrical damage more than others. Some will act as Faraday cages, while others might electrocute you. Leather offers reasonable protection, but not much. Currently, electrical damage will only be inflicted by lightning.

Finally, to go over tools. Pick axes will deal stab and crush damage. Axes will deal slash and crush damage. Random items will deal crush damage. Shovels will deal crush damage. Pro picks will deal stab and crush damage. Hammers will deal crush damage. Chisels, hoes and saws won't do any extra damage at all, but chisels will be stab and hoes will be stab/crush. Scythes will be slash.

I just had an awesome-gasm :P

I'm so exited by this :D

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'We're going with the D&D damage system'

^paraphrase

Fuckin A <3

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