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Bioxx

Kingdoms Brainstorming

899 posts in this topic

I think this system is too strict.

First of all, it depends on finding already established NPC cities, instead of allowing people to found their own. Secondly, it enforces taxes and offers no model of a city without it.

This system could offer that the player build his own city or buy a NPC city. If the player chose live on NPC city, he need pay the city tax, but if the player found a city, he could add his laws and tax.

An city (player or NPC), may attack, trade or ally with others NPC/player cities. Even, if a city has low tax or better goods that others, the NPC population increase in this city. NPC population could defend, attack, trade, build a house, marry…

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has anyone planned out how people could get there hands on good land ?

what if we added claim posts ?

in irl, miners, prospectors and land speculators use land claim posts to mark out what plot of land you wish to control

there would be some limits though

1) a person could only "own" 4 "1" by "1" km area

2) the property must be noted at a government office (or with an server admin)

3) groups of people and corporations can control land to a limit (set by the admin)

4) a land claim must have at least a 1000 of what ever currency is used on the server to remain controlled by the owner

any other ideas? just spouting ideas :)

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i have to say just one thing so far really i regards to buying plots of land or claims if you will for mining out, basically how do we ensure it doesn't just facilitate another type of griefing whereby the griefer simply buys up all the land plots around each newly constructed town block and does nothing with them thereby rendering making towns pointless.

maybe if the town center or structure had a communal inventory that everyone with a plot of owned land nearby could contribute to and then when the materials stored by the town center got past a certain threshold it'd provide a nicer environment in and around the town, or heck maybe it could give a bonus that reduces the time to produce charcoal or something like that, of course something really small like 5% or 10% but something that'd incentivize being a cohesive part of a town instead of just staying on your own.

as far as theft and crime goes....

/me points to eve online, have fun with your research ;)

yeah i know, not much useful to say on it, it's early.

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i have to say just one thing so far really i regards to buying plots of land or claims if you will for mining out, basically how do we ensure it doesn't just facilitate another type of griefing whereby the griefer simply buys up all the land plots around each newly constructed town block and does nothing with them thereby rendering making towns pointless.

maybe if the town center or structure had a communal inventory that everyone with a plot of owned land nearby could contribute to and then when the materials stored by the town center got past a certain threshold it'd provide a nicer environment in and around the town, or heck maybe it could give a bonus that reduces the time to produce charcoal or something like that, of course something really small like 5% or 10% but something that'd incentivize being a cohesive part of a town instead of just staying on your own.

as far as theft and crime goes....

/me points to eve online, have fun with your research ;)

yeah i know, not much useful to say on it, it's early.

simple way to stop a greifer form buying everything could be to simply double the taxes on the person after the alotted 4 claims in one area are used up. claims also could have a limited life span of a year, before needing to be renewed

you could though have problems with land speculators buying large areas of land, but if you simply claim the land they don t want, than there land depreciates in value.

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yeah i have to admit, even unintentionally just people starting to buy up all the land with intent to resell it for a profit could become troublesome too.

as far as taxes go.... well... that should work, IF the griefer can't afford to pay the taxes and honestly in that case i'd argue that he probably would have more trouble affording to initially buy it up, the point i was making was under the assumption that's not the case and they can afford it, indefinitely.

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This system could offer that the player build his own city or buy a NPC city. If the player chose live on NPC city, he need pay the city tax, but if the player found a city, he could add his laws and tax.

An city (player or NPC), may attack, trade or ally with others NPC/player cities. Even, if a city has low tax or better goods that others, the NPC population increase in this city. NPC population could defend, attack, trade, build a house, marry…

What about cities that doesn't want taxes? Are taxes optional or required for a city to be a "legitimate" city? I would like as many options as possible in this new addition, and I am positive towards NPC cities, as long as they don't grow too big.

Perhaps NPC cities should have a cap in how much they can grow? That way, they are attractive in early game and can be subjugated in later game, in later game only other player-built or owned cities can rival player-built or owned cities? Although that's quite a longshot considering the amount of people needed for such grand scales. I digress.

Firstly, I think focus should be on cities founded by players. NPC-cities can come later, imo.

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heres my idea about locks/protection/towns/factions/war/pvp/griefing

make levels have them scale from killing players/mobs, have them scale by an achievment system(like finding ore/making ingots)

have combat levels where you have to be within a certain range to fight other players

have an achivement level requirement for making a town/home protected area

have a town level where you can't expand/use certain town perks untill you reach a certain level. have combat levels for tows

allow pvp to be turned on or off for those of us who take a long time to start up/ have a laggy computer and would be unable to even see the other person in real time

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about curancy I think there should be a block/machinethingy/npc placed by the admin at spawn that trades gems and ingots form curancy which is digital since inventory management currantly takes up alot of space

which I would wish for that to be changed for smp atleast

with the currant chests the protected area if any is allowed would be filled with the chests since they only hold 18 items and with the material requirements for town being sugested that would eat up you space

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about curancy I think there should be a block/machinethingy/npc placed by the admin at spawn that trades gems and ingots form curancy which is digital since inventory management currantly takes up alot of space

I'm against the idea of making spawn a necessary hub to travel to.

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i am thinking through which other mods (with some fine tweeks) could go well with this mod

the best one i ve found is the trains and zepplins mod which adds a massive amount of modern and historical trains for transporting goods :)

any others anyone can think of ?

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I'm against the idea of making spawn a necessary hub to travel to.

maybe add the curancy exchange thingy to large town or nations

or make it craftable

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craftable would be good

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So, the griefing, thieft and assasination should be - because it adds spice to teh gameplay, and it should be limited - because nobody want to wake up in complete ruins every damn day.

I like idea of reinforcement - not for crazy 1 hour of wall-penetration, but lets say, 5-10 min for a man with a black/higher pickaxe and not-ever-try for others. I also like an idea of hired guards patrooling the walls and trying to deal hardly with a suspicious person, attacking that walls. Are you tough enouth to withstand 10+ guards in steel making you a hedgedog with their long bows?

I also vote for idea of locks. They were the real way to stop intruders (by jamming, lol).

The limitation should be based on time. If a master of some house is inside - he should repel marauders by himself, which is fair enouth. If he went out, the house starts a 20-30 minute timer. After it counts to zero - game does locking of all the unbroken content (doors, chests, blocks) in the house.

The mercenaries is the good solution, I think - a pack of heavy armored guys defending key points of the house - as living (and regenerating!) traps with simple AI. They could get orders and nust be paid well.

The word about sniffing the explosives: they could be carried in in form of precursors and built to bomb just inside the building. And that the hell "explosive sniffing system" could be in <1600 years? The explosives could, npo doubt, but no sniffing.

Attackers could use bombs/explosives to break obstackles - break wall underneath, as instance, and it will break being turned to cobble.

The wise attacker could divert attention of guards (if they aren't trained well - twere hired on the street) by throwing a piece of rock or, if he knows that master of house is a greedy bastard, throw a small gem and pull the guards by one. All that operation must be done for a 20-30 munites - or house locks and guards become (almost?) immortal.

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What about cities that doesn't want taxes? Are taxes optional or required for a city to be a "legitimate" city? I would like as many options as possible in this new addition, and I am positive towards NPC cities, as long as they don't grow too big.

Perhaps NPC cities should have a cap in how much they can grow? That way, they are attractive in early game and can be subjugated in later game, in later game only other player-built or owned cities can rival player-built or owned cities? Although that's quite a longshot considering the amount of people needed for such grand scales. I digress.

Firstly, I think focus should be on cities founded by players. NPC-cities can come later, imo.

Each city has it own laws. These laws include or not the taxes.

I suppose that the cities grow depending of population. A city <50 npc is smaller than another >100 npc. The city ratio increase depending of population but, all in this life has a limit :P

I think that npc city could attack to other city if relationship down very much. The npcs occupy the player place. In single player is only one player, then npc occupy the player places, but in a server you could choose if your city will or will not npcs.

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So, the griefing, thieft and assasination should be - because it adds spice to teh gameplay, and it should be limited - because nobody want to wake up in complete ruins every damn day.

I like idea of reinforcement - not for crazy 1 hour of wall-penetration, but lets say, 5-10 min for a man with a black/higher pickaxe and not-ever-try for others. I also like an idea of hired guards patrooling the walls and trying to deal hardly with a suspicious person, attacking that walls. Are you tough enouth to withstand 10+ guards in steel making you a hedgedog with their long bows?

I also vote for idea of locks. They were the real way to stop intruders (by jamming, lol).

The limitation should be based on time. If a master of some house is inside - he should repel marauders by himself, which is fair enouth. If he went out, the house starts a 20-30 minute timer. After it counts to zero - game does locking of all the unbroken content (doors, chests, blocks) in the house.

The mercenaries is the good solution, I think - a pack of heavy armored guys defending key points of the house - as living (and regenerating!) traps with simple AI. They could get orders and nust be paid well.

The word about sniffing the explosives: they could be carried in in form of precursors and built to bomb just inside the building. And that the hell "explosive sniffing system" could be in <1600 years? The explosives could, npo doubt, but no sniffing.

Attackers could use bombs/explosives to break obstackles - break wall underneath, as instance, and it will break being turned to cobble.

The wise attacker could divert attention of guards (if they aren't trained well - twere hired on the street) by throwing a piece of rock or, if he knows that master of house is a greedy bastard, throw a small gem and pull the guards by one. All that operation must be done for a 20-30 munites - or house locks and guards become (almost?) immortal.

Great idea, I think that locks should be manual but still +1 to you
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i have to say just one thing so far really i regards to buying plots of land or claims if you will for mining out, basically how do we ensure it doesn't just facilitate another type of griefing whereby the griefer simply buys up all the land plots around each newly constructed town block and does nothing with them thereby rendering making towns pointless.

maybe if the town center or structure had a communal inventory that everyone with a plot of owned land nearby could contribute to and then when the materials stored by the town center got past a certain threshold it'd provide a nicer environment in and around the town, or heck maybe it could give a bonus that reduces the time to produce charcoal or something like that, of course something really small like 5% or 10% but something that'd incentivize being a cohesive part of a town instead of just staying on your own.

as far as theft and crime goes....

/me points to eve online, have fun with your research ;)

yeah i know, not much useful to say on it, it's early.

In my eyes, the mayor of the town, would control the sales of the individual plots. At least the initial sale. The current owner, would be able to sell to anyone. The mayor could prevent anyone from buying up all the land or mineral rights initially. The likelihood of someone coming in and buying out all the current owners is small but possible. That would be incentive for the mayor to not overcharge in taxes, to use the tax revenue for the betterment of the town. (Hiring guards, buying supplies, paying people to mine, paying people to build roads, building community bloomeries, etc)

A mayor, that overcharges, or doesn't use the funds to better the city, would find himself voted out, or in an abandoned city.

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i like the lock pick stress thing plus the lock combo thing

I think their should be levels of lock based on material+how wil its crafted

picks should have to be a higher level to not get buffed, if they are same or lower they have an exponetial buff against durability

the locks should be either number combo or a pusle type thing that the maker creates, for every level above basic add one more number slot, for every level above the base one to start their should be a clue or auto gues one of the numbers

and their should be a random alarm for stress on lock picks and if one should snap their should be a alarm on a larger scale and the lock should jame till it is opened and if it jamed a in game mesage should be sent to the player while he is online/when he logs on

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I am ttk2, I created and administrate http://reddit.com/r/Civcraft, as far as I know we are the only server dedicated to being a political melting pot. Our player base is over a thousand strong, in many ways TFcraft and Civcraft are each other reversed, you started with an expanded tech tree and environment and now move to politics, we started with politics and are working on moving to an expanded tech tree.

But what you are thinking about here is a cardboard cutout of politics. You are trying to design the political aspect of this game as if it where the same as any other, you are writing outcomes, goals, objectives before the players even have a chance to think about it. The resulting game will be about only one type of politics, yours. After all when the socialists argue that no single man should be able to own a town it will fall on deaf ears, the server code defines reality for this game and when god says private property exists who are the socialists to ague with him?

In one fell swoop an attempt at traditional game design with the hope of creating a politics centered game has destroyed the possibility of a thousand different ideologies. By saying what is and is not property you exclude all those who disagree. By creating a system that enforces taxation you are excluding those who think it should not be enforced. The only thing you will get out of this is predictable conflicts with predictable reasons, all of the possibilities offered by a game truly driven by the players, with their ideas and ideologies removed when you decided you wanted to define the word property.

To build a game around politics you have to think differently about game design, about administration, about players, and most importantly about your own beliefs to prevent yourself from making a single assumption beyond the constraints of physical reality. You must not design outcomes, instead create tools to act as in game analogs to real world functions.

We designed PrisonPearl and Citadel as the core tools required to simulate politics and with them we have done what someone just earlier in this thread claimed was impossible, not that he is in bad company, saying we have beat griefing is a tall order, but we have. Instead of defining property instead we focused our protection system, Citadel, around a real world mechanic, mainly that buildings are actually pretty hard to take down and expensive to put up. Players can pay a resource cost to protect an individual block that must then be broken a given number of times before it is removed, this means players can not only protect doors and chests, but entire houses, no more digging through a wall to get inside. Griefing becomes very difficult when leveling a players house can take hours, but when a griefer tries leaving protected blocks all over a city the population can team up to remove them in seconds apiece as effort to remove protected blocks stacks. PrisonPearl is an analog for the use of restraining force on an individual, when one player kills another they can capture them in an Ender Pearl, forcing them to spawn in the end with no ability to leave, a sort of prison. Players can summon their prisoners to work as slave labor or negotiate release.

Players have worked together to build societies, where they create and enforce laws using the PrisonPearl mechanic, we are an open server, no white-list without any admin interference in griefing or attacks and yet the players enforce better order than I have seen on many white-listed servers with teams of moderators. More often than not even cheaters running combat enhancement mods galore and holding nothing back are in player custody long before I ever see the report. An unbelievable political diversity exists, with almost every type of society imagined or real represented by an in game faction. All we miss is a complex tech tree that players must work together to utilize.

The players define property, enforce taxes and shape the world. Players are not stuck trying to go for a goal that I defined but free to write in their own and use the tools we have created in constantly improving ways. Players create currencies, they fail, fluctuate in value, and change in the blink of an eye. We have seen Governments dissolved in ways that server defined cities never could, where players exploited a loophole to say the constitution of a city was abolished, without the server to define the world pro and anti government forces rallied debates and protests ensued, the police force of the city unjustly arrested protesters claiming rioting and fullness. The ensuing court case was fascinating, all of these things are lost if you decide to so much as define what constitutes a town.

If you go the direction this thread is headed you will do what has been done before, create a poor facsimile of what you think politics should be and turning it into a game, where others play what you think politics is. Or you could rethink game design and set players free.

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Each city has it own laws. These laws include or not the taxes.

I suppose that the cities grow depending of population. A city <50 npc is smaller than another >100 npc. The city ratio increase depending of population but, all in this life has a limit :P

I think that npc city could attack to other city if relationship down very much. The npcs occupy the player place. In single player is only one player, then npc occupy the player places, but in a server you could choose if your city will or will not npcs.

How are these laws enforced? Automatically or are they just set up so they are easily readable? I don't want players be physically limited by ridiculous laws, and I don't want these laws to be set in stone, only to be used as basis for a judicial system. Of course NPC's (if implemented at all) will follow whatever laws made up automatically - which by the way would open up for potential abuse of the soulless masses :P

Would population be fixed? Wouldn't it be more prudent if population grew (first) and the city grew accordingly?

That's an interesting idea lol! As it is now, NPCs regard anything with a door and roof as a house, so the only thing that needs to be added housing-wise would be some sort of mechanism that makes them disregard houses designated as player-houses (this could be done by the city mayor (even though I dislike the idea of a sole ruler, but that's for another post) or by some implemented law)

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In my eyes, the mayor of the town, would control the sales of the individual plots. At least the initial sale. The current owner, would be able to sell to anyone. The mayor could prevent anyone from buying up all the land or mineral rights initially. The likelihood of someone coming in and buying out all the current owners is small but possible. That would be incentive for the mayor to not overcharge in taxes, to use the tax revenue for the betterment of the town. (Hiring guards, buying supplies, paying people to mine, paying people to build roads, building community bloomeries, etc)

A mayor, that overcharges, or doesn't use the funds to better the city, would find himself voted out, or in an abandoned city.

what whould the initial byuing of land look like?

I think their should be a substantial area around a town where another town cannot build except with permision from the first town(kindof a first come first serve thing). their could also be a system where you could fight it out for the space between towns if the levels are close enought and bothe sides consent

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How are these laws enforced? Automatically or are they just set up so they are easily readable? I don't want players be physically limited by ridiculous laws, and I don't want these laws to be set in stone, only to be used as basis for a judicial system. Of course NPC's (if implemented at all) will follow whatever laws made up automatically - which by the way would open up for potential abuse of the soulless masses :P

Would population be fixed? Wouldn't it be more prudent if population grew (first) and the city grew accordingly?

That's an interesting idea lol! As it is now, NPCs regard anything with a door and roof as a house, so the only thing that needs to be added housing-wise would be some sort of mechanism that makes them disregard houses designated as player-houses (this could be done by the city mayor (even though I dislike the idea of a sole ruler, but that's for another post) or by some implemented law)

I think adding a craftable item that allows npcs to spawn in houses would be good in my opinion( I just don't like relying on meyors)
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I think this should be divided into multiple forums posts so that it can be better organized by subject

its kind of cluttered and dificult to reat at the moment

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I think adding a craftable item that allows npcs to spawn in houses would be good in my opinion( I just don't like relying on meyors)

Current NPCs "breed" in housings overnight. The ability to create life by using an item seems out of place!

I think this should be divided into multiple forums posts so that it can be better organized by subject

its kind of cluttered and dificult to reat at the moment

Agreed, this is a subject that spawns varied discussions.

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I am ttk2, I created and administrate http://reddit.com/r/Civcraft, as far as I know we are the only server dedicated to being a political melting pot. Our player base is over a thousand strong, in many ways TFcraft and Civcraft are each other reversed, you started with an expanded tech tree and environment and now move to politics, we started with politics and are working on moving to an expanded tech tree.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's possible on a certain server(s), under the right conditions, indeed you may have done it on your server. But TFC isn't being designed for, or atleast my ideas aren't for, a single server with 1000's of players like you have. A system in TFC needs to be designed for multiple servers of varying sizes. A server with 50 members won't be able to mount as strong of a defense vs the griefers.

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Don't get me wrong, I think it's possible on a certain server(s), under the right conditions, indeed you may have done it on your server. But TFC isn't being designed for, or atleast my ideas aren't for, a single server with 1000's of players like you have. A system in TFC needs to be designed for multiple servers of varying sizes. A server with 50 members won't be able to mount as strong of a defense vs the griefers.

Its much easier to create order with these systems than most people think. Mainly because it relies on strength in numbers griefers are usually isolated and tend to not work together or be a cohesive group. We have had situations where small groups working together have defeated waves of disorganized griefers without much effort. And the organized griefers have to stay around long enough to build up equipment to be on even footing with the regular players. In the end you are correct, the players can fail and the server fall to chaos, but that's what makes it fun, that's what makes it worth doing. It makes every battle so much more significant an exciting with so much riding on it. If players are not interested in this risk than they simply do what they do now, ban griefers and/or add a white-list then those players can practice the flexibility offered by this approach in safety.

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