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dabman10

Suggestions to make learning Terrafirmacraft easier.

15 posts in this topic

I've created this post to recognize the fact that in vanilla minecraft AND tfc, there is an inherent design to the game that makes it nearly impossible to learn how to play without help or seeking outside knowledge (such as a wiki). In game design, this is generally regarded as being a negative aspect. However, providing direct instruction is also frowned upon as well (e.g. HINT: "Place three sticks on the ground and right click with a firestarter to make a fire!!!!" Achievement: You made a fire!) So this thread is a place for suggestions on how to make Terrafirmacraft more intuitive and possible to learn without sacrificing complexity.

1. More Solutions or Indicators to show Success in Knapping

The greatest barrier to the game right now is that no one could ever expect to know how to make an axe, shovel, hoe, knife or hammer, because there are over 50,000 knapping combinations and only 5 correct solutions. Compare this to blacksmithing, where you get an actual indication that you're making progress to completing an item. Therefore, knapping needs to somehow show you're progressing towards actually creating something.

  • Partial/Crude stone heads. One idea would be that if your knapped item is very similar to the correct plan, you would still be able to create the stonehead, but it would be crude or already damaged. This would be similar to how creating a metal item without having the green and red arrows lined up leave it slightly damaged. So, take for example this simulation of successfully completing a stone axe:

  • Sound effects are always a great well to indicate progression. A rock-breaking sound could be played every time you break one piece of rock in the knapping screen. Any time you break a square in the grid that will progress to an actual item, the rock-breaking sound could go up in pitch. Any time you break a square in the grid that is less like an actual item, a sound would go lower in pitch, or indicate to the player that click was a poor choice. Here's another example showing the contrast of unsuccessfully completing an item:

2. More intuitive ways to make a firepit

Making your first firepit is a necessity, and yet it requires a very precise way of doing it that makes it incredibly difficult to ever discover on your own. What could make firebuilding more intuitive? Well, right-clicking places sticks on the ground similar to stacking logs would be a start. If it requires a number of sticks to make a fire, why not make a sound effect that plays for each stick you place which increases in pitch until you have the correct number of sticks? Anything that can indicate to the player they are on the right track is a good idea.

It's also difficult to realize that a firestarter is actually working. A sound effect is also needed here. Currently, even if you do figure out how to use a firestarter, there is no indication from the game that you are doing it correctly! If I've already right clicked sticks 3-4 times, why would I continue trying when it seems like nothing is happening? Again, something must indicate to the player that their actions are leading to the right direction, and that they should keep trying what they are doing.

TFC did a great job giving sticks for punching leaves, since it's actually more intuitive than making sticks from wood. What if a player placed logs or planks on the ground, and thought a firestarter could light them? It seems logical they could be lit on fire, so how can the game hint to the player that they're on the right track, but should use sticks instead? Again, sound effects could indicate that logs and planks might be burnable, but too difficult to light with simply a firestarter.

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That sound bit is an interesting idea, but I'm just wondering how the client would "know" which tool you're trying to make. (This might get a little messy.)

Posted Image

Sorry it's so small, it never occurred to me to expand the image until i was about halfway done.

A = Axe (blue)

S =Shovel (pink)

Kn/K (I changed my mind, not sure why) = Knife (green)

Ha = Hammer (black)

Ho = Hoe (red)

As you can see, there are only four spots (the three on the bottom right, and the one on the top left) that are "empty", as in, only four spots that are "definitely" not a tool. The rest are just like "well, maybe you aren't making a _____ but making a ____ instead? So I think I'll just give you a high ding, here you go". And that seems sorta..odd. (To be honest, I'm not sure where I was going with this diagram..)

Also, I'm probably not the only one, but when I knap, I just spamclick. It's not pretty. As in, adding sfx would just sound like noise to me, after so many repeated plays, and I probably wouldn't notice a change in pitch (or when I do, it would be like 5 stones ago).

Also, about the stick thing, well if you put more than 3 then it still works (not sure if the chance goes down or up, but I just know that it still works), so again, sfx may not be necessary. I may sound like I'm ripping your SFX idea apart (...okay I am), but in all honesty I do like it, it's just that it has quite a number of loopholes.

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Bioxx (I think; loosely) said that he the he imagined Steve (you the player) would be a native inhabitant of this world, and would instinctively and already possess the knowledge to do such actions. Intending that you, the player, would have some knowledge about what your doing and not just hopping in blind (though it was fun). Since it's a mod, you had to have some knowledge of the game before hand before you could even start playing. So the wiki would be the best place to start to get yourself familiarized with Steve's world, before taking over his mind and body.

Though I do see where you're coming from, and it certainly couldn't hurt (depending).

Also when you compared stone-working to blacksmithing, you still need to know the plans for the tools before you can do anything of worth, the only difference is the amount of prepping the materials and finishing the product.

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I've created this post

[...]

simply a firestarter.

This mod is not oriented for 10 years old kids, quite the opposite. And after playing it so many times, I don't think that I will forget how to knap an axe head or how to start a fire if I make a new world
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Axis:

That is an amazing picture you have created. There are certainly hurdles to developing a learning-based approached to knapping, as it shows, but there are possibilities.

Salvatos:

Sure, that is fine. but I will reiterate my point that game design principles (the principles you would learn about if you decided to pay for an education in game design) say that the better the game is at intuitively teaching the player how to play, the more enjoyable experience the game will be. I don't mean that the game should directly teach you how to play it, but that there is intuitive logic to how things are done, and there are ways to figure out how to get there even if you don't get it at first.

Here's an example of commentary about intuitive game design that helps elaborate my point:

EstebanL You completely misunderstood my post. I know you aren't going to forget how to make a firepit once you learn how to do it. The problem is learning how to do it in the first time is currently a highly-difficult endeavor that requires luck, knowledge from friends, or an outside source of knowledge. Relying on this is not good game design.

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The knapping has already been suggested in my tiny tweaks thread,

As for the fire pit, TFC is not a handholding mod. It is not a forgiving mod. If you're too thick to be able to make a fire, the creepers will remove your inferior genes from the pool. That's how RL works, that's how TFC works.

If TFC starts guiding baby's first steps through settling down, I'll flat out stop playing it until that gets fixed. I play this mod because I like a challenge, not because I'm a retard that needs bright shiny helper text and loud noises to keep me occupied.

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I'm a wiki updater now, considering how much I post on all my forums I'll have most of it fixed in a week. I updated the getting started guide if you are having trouble getting out of the stone age, still needs a bit of detail at the end but it works. I don't think this is a good way to learn, a wiki is probably the best way. The achievements are good but nobody looks there for help and if you have Mo' Creatures installed you get an instant crash and Mo' Creatures has to be reinstalled and reset.

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lol nope.

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mane craft is not a intuitive game

yes in vanill if you punch somthing you get rewarded and learn to do it again but unless you look up the basics of crafting geting planks then crafting bech are just accidents then the grafting gride is mildky intuitive but other that the basic tools how do you know how to make a pressure plate, jukebox...

tfc is hard to start out

you have to put 2 rocks in the rafting guide..... huh?

you have to make an axe to get wood....not like vanilla

in order to play tfc you have to learn how to play its not a simple game its a survival game and in order to survive well, with out the hundreds of people dieing, you have to look up what food is ok to eat, how to tie knots, how to start a fire...

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From the last few responses, it is clear I have not properly described what I am intending to say. I never said anything about holding your hand to learn how to play in my post. In fact, I made it clear that this is a bad idea for game design.

EternalUndeath, did you read anything I said at all? Did you watch the video I posted that actually made fun of games that use strategies like this to teach you how to play? I expected more from your reply because I've seen lots of great posts from you in other threads.

Bad game design is creating a game that makes it nearly impossible to learn how to play unless you're getting help outside a game. However, bad game design is also directly teaching to player how to play the game.I enjoy playing TFC because it is complex and it's difficult even struggling to survive. But there are parts of TFC that are do not do a good job conveying to the player how it should be done, and this thread is for suggestions on how to improve that.

Complexity and Conveyance/intuitive design are compatible.

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From the last few responses, it is clear I have not properly described what I am intending to say. I never said anything about holding your hand to learn how to play in my post. In fact, I made it clear that this is a bad idea for game design.

EternalUndeath, did you read anything I said at all? Did you watch the video I posted that actually made fun of games that use strategies like this to teach you how to play? I expected more from your reply because I've seen lots of great posts from you in other threads.

Bad game design is creating a game that makes it nearly impossible to learn how to play unless you're getting help outside a game. However, bad game design is also directly teaching to player how to play the game.I enjoy playing TFC because it is complex and it's difficult even struggling to survive. But there are parts of TFC that are do not do a good job conveying to the player how it should be done, and this thread is for suggestions on how to improve that.

Complexity and Conveyance/intuitive design are compatible.

I'm pretty sure I grocked your jive bro.

Unfortunately, we don't feel this adds anything to the game than an extra layer of confusion. If you mess up when knapping, that's on you bro.

Thanks for the input, but i don't think this will be added to the game.

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An extra layer of confusion? Then I didn't properly explain to your what conveyance really means, and why it's important in games. If I did, you definitely would be agreeing with me at least in principle.

Heck, why even have a gui screen for knapping at all? Why not make it invisible, I mean as long as the wiki page tells you which portion of the screen to click on, you'll be able to memorize it and you'll have no problem at all!

I'm very aware there is are strong sentiments among fans of minecraft about conveyance. The minecraft fan base generally attracts people who enjoy reading and searching for solutions online when they are having issues, and I'm very much the same way. I knew I would get some resistance here when I started talking about this. But the biggest criticisms about minecraft from reviewers is its poor conveyance of how to play.

At any rate, I'm going to have to revise this post because I'm pretty sure I am not stating the message properly. I've already started by posted youtube animation examples of how sound effects and partially-completed stoneheads would improve the knapping game element. Links below if you don't care to scroll up:

Edit: Hah, now I know why people are coming to this thread with a closed mind. I made pretty much the worst title ever.

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An extra layer of confusion? Then I didn't properly explain to your what conveyance really means, and why it's important in games. If I did, you definitely would be agreeing with me at least in principle.

Heck, why even have a gui screen for knapping at all? Why not make it invisible, I mean as long as the wiki page tells you which portion of the screen to click on, you'll be able to memorize it and you'll have no problem at all!

I'm very aware there is are strong sentiments among fans of minecraft about conveyance. The minecraft fan base generally attracts people who enjoy reading and searching for solutions online when they are having issues, and I'm very much the same way. I knew I would get some resistance here when I started talking about this. But the biggest criticisms about minecraft from reviewers is its poor conveyance of how to play.

At any rate, I'm going to have to revise this post because I'm pretty sure I am not stating the message properly. I've already started by posted youtube animation examples of how sound effects and partially-completed stoneheads would improve the knapping game element. Links below if you don't care to scroll up:

Edit: Hah, now I know why people are coming to this thread with a closed mind. I made pretty much the worst title ever.

Don't tell me "you'd agree with me if you understood". Maybe I didn't make myself clear: no.
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I'm a teacher by trade, and I really enjoy this game. I've taught 10 players over skype how to knap, forge, and have encountered the same issues with players nearly every time. Tell me, how does this add an extra layer of confusion? How does this differ to a lot of new mechanics implemented in the game, such as the green/red progress bar in the forge gui, prospecting devices that give you hints about the general locations of ores, or a charcoal pit lighting on fire as an indication it is burning? All of these mechanics are ways of giving information to the player that they are doing something right.

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I'm a teacher by trade, and I really enjoy this game. I've taught 10 players over skype how to knap, forge, and have encountered the same issues with players nearly every time. Tell me, how does this add an extra layer of confusion? How does this differ to a lot of new mechanics implemented in the game, such as the green/red progress bar in the forge gui, prospecting devices that give you hints about the general locations of ores, or a charcoal pit lighting on fire as an indication it is burning? All of these mechanics are ways of giving information to the player that they are doing something right.

Either you're bad at teaching over skype, you didn't have the brightest crop of students, or TFC is designed to be difficult at first.

(hint: it's the third one)

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