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Xechon

"Organic" Knapping and moar tools

21 posts in this topic

Meant to be used in conjunction with this, this, and this, and probably a few other things I forgot about.

The Issue:Knapping is too easy and efficient, and tool types are limited. It is a bit boring and repetitive to have to keep drawing the exact same tool head over and over. It is also very difficult to play this game with just survival knowledge, and not wiki knowledge, because the recipes must be exact.

The Solution:A knapping system that bases a tool’s function on it’s shape, instead of static models. More types of tools could be made in this way, and testing designs for efficiency would be a part of learning to make stone tools. Rocks could be generated differently, so that you don’t (normally) find perfect rocks that can be used to make any type of tool head.

The Idea:A new knapping interface that would either allow for 3d knapping or add “properties†to certain squares.

  • Isolated rocks parts may become additional tool heads.
  • When you hit a rock with another, you do not always take a perfect 1x1 chunk out of it. This adds a bit of luck, or perhaps skill instead (don’t know how right now).
  • Found rocks are not always perfect, and when you open the knapping interface, the initial shape of the rock should be randomly generated.
  • Rocks, at least ones suitable for making tool heads with, should (perhaps) be a bit more rare, as I believe they are too easy to get, so you won’t run out.
  • Breaking a stone or cobble block should always give a rock, and give many most of the time. I know this conversion ratio is planned to be fixed, but this would be a sufficient patch for the time being.
  • Stones should behave like vanilla paintings, as entities so that they can generate underwater too (might cause too much lag, but would be nice otherwise).
  • Stones used as the hammer in knapping are not broken down (unless you really want to), so no damage bar will need to be used.
  • When stone tools are used, instead of a durability bar, the item could have a chance, depending on the hardness of material being hit, get chipped or broken off, and would need to be repaired (re-knapping) or replaced, or just used as is with the item’s new properties. Handle is a vulnerable area, being made of sticks.
Terms:

Base- The area behind the feature being discussed. Affects weight/power, and sturdiness of the material.

Area- Largest surface area of a tool, used for calculating blocking capability.

Structure- The material, and how it is arranged, to determine how sturdy it is and how long it will last.

Weight- Pretty obvious, used to calculate swing speed, power, and structure (especially at the handle)

Template-3d model shape (2d property equivilent)- Effect & examples

  • 1 block hole, 1 or 2 deep (handle area)- The area a handle is attached to, that side’s properties cannot be used, except for weight and sturdiness.
  • 1-4 block tip with a larger base (point area)- A sharp point, used for poking things. Javelin/spear-heads, arrowheads, hooks, pick, propick
  • 1 wide long end, with a larger base. (edge area)- A sharp edge, used for hacking things. Axe, sword, (hoe?), chisel,(possible woodworking, stone-crafted version), scythe (if implemented with stone)
  • 1 wide long end, with a larger base, but with indents at certain intervals. (serrated area) Knife, Saw (if there’s ever a stone version)
  • Large flat end, heavy base. (blunt area)- A blunt area, used for bashing things. Hammer, shovel, mace(if implemented with stone)
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Different shaped rocks would be tricky to do with the MC data format. They wouldn't stack with each other. And if they did, how would you go about looking for one that is "appropriately shaped for an axe"?

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Yep you are definitely not the first one to think of this...

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/1502-additional-chisel-functions/page__st__20__p__16048__hl__knapping__fromsearch__1#entry16048

It probably deserved its own thread anyways so, ya.

Anyways though remove GUI use microblocks instead. Stones should have a damage bar depending on what rock they are and what they are hitting, this makes better tools tougher to make. My later idea was that when right clicked with your bare hand would check to see if it was a tool and then drop itself as that tool if so.

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I really like these ideas, especially the 3D knapping, if it's possible (since that might also open possibilities for 3D smithing, woodworking, and maybe even a few other things?)

I only wonder how much is possible in the code, without becoming laggy or clunky or buggy? Even the 2D system of microblocks sounds like it'd be cool, I just wonder how possible automatic tool detection is?

It'd probably be made easier if the 2D system could have a pseudo-3Deffect, where different blocks could have different states the player might be able to assign them to represent thickness, or to simply make the blocks have two states; sharpened, or unsharpened. The play could toggle between sharpening and regular hitting with a button, and sharpening would also, of course, have its own random element as well.

I also think only the out-most blocks should be hittable, and possibly adding a "power bar" for your strikes. Holding down the mouse button would increase the amount of power behind the strike, and thus destroy more blocks (Or greater reduce the thickness of more blocks) with less control then a lighter, more controlled hit.

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Different shaped rocks would be tricky to do with the MC data format. They wouldn't stack with each other. And if they did, how would you go about looking for one that is "appropriately shaped for an axe"?

A rock with a defined shape (has been in the knapping screen) would no longer stack with other rocks. However, undefined rocks (ones you've just picked off the ground) would stack normally.

To search for a rock that is suitible for an axe head, look for rocks. A rock would have a semi-random shape, but you could still create a hacking edge (axe) with most rocks, just with varying weight/structure/area. Rocks under water could be, on average, more rounded than rocks found on the surface.

Yep you are definitely not the first one to think of this...

http://terrafirmacra...h__1#entry16048

It probably deserved its own thread anyways so, ya.

Anyways though remove GUI use microblocks instead. Stones should have a damage bar depending on what rock they are and what they are hitting, this makes better tools tougher to make. My later idea was that when right clicked with your bare hand would check to see if it was a tool and then drop itself as that tool if so.

I'm sorry, I didn't even see this. I did do a search for it, but I didn't read every post, so sorry about taking your idea.

Are microblocks confirmed? I can see this causing lag for some, so I wouldn't think it would be implimented, but It'd be awesome if it were. Definitly use of microblocks if they are implimented.

With the stone's damage bar, you're talking about differing hardness of types of rocks, right? If so, good idea, and the hammer rock would lose more random blocks if ever used for a tool head, based on the health bar.

To check a rock, you could just put it in your crafting grid and open the knapping GUI, and see what it is. Then you can drop it (place it on the ground or throw the item) if it is bad, and move on, or use it as a hammer stone.

I really like these ideas, especially the 3D knapping, if it's possible (since that might also open possibilities for 3D smithing, woodworking, and maybe even a few other things?)

I only wonder how much is possible in the code, without becoming laggy or clunky or buggy? Even the 2D system of microblocks sounds like it'd be cool, I just wonder how possible automatic tool detection is?

It'd probably be made easier if the 2D system could have a pseudo-3Deffect, where different blocks could have different states the player might be able to assign them to represent thickness, or to simply make the blocks have two states; sharpened, or unsharpened. The play could toggle between sharpening and regular hitting with a button, and sharpening would also, of course, have its own random element as well.

I also think only the out-most blocks should be hittable, and possibly adding a "power bar" for your strikes. Holding down the mouse button would increase the amount of power behind the strike, and thus destroy more blocks (Or greater reduce the thickness of more blocks) with less control then a lighter, more controlled hit.

Yes, that is what I hoped was implied by the 2d tool properties, but I forgot to specify. Middle blocks should be able to be broken, just maybe harder than the thinner edges, because that way one rock could become two tool heads if it is big enough. Different shades could indicate different layers of thickness of the rock, and sharpness would be a quality for serrated, but could be seperate as a different shade of the color, but wears off quickly.

Different power hits + random(ish) breakage gets my yes, and everything else looks good.

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ahahaha no

You know Bioxx would be working for a million billion years to accomplish this right?

This is the work of a mod all on its own

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^

3D design in Minecraft? Do you understand the simple constraints that require millions of line sof code to simple build the "Line Tool"

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ahahaha no

You know Bioxx would be working for a million billion years to accomplish this right?

This is the work of a mod all on its own

^

3D design in Minecraft? Do you understand the simple constraints that require millions of line sof code to simple build the "Line Tool"

I knew it would be some work, but I presented a 2d version that would work just the same for all intents and purposes. I am just learning Java right now, and I understand it is difficult, but I didn't figure it would be that bad, considering all of the changes that have been made already.

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Microblocks have been confirmed almost for sure, I'm curious how is this that much different from the current knapping GUI? It would just check for shapes it recognizes when someone right clicks. I also know very little about coding although i have tried before so obviously I must be missing something.

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ahahaha no

You know Bioxx would be working for a million billion years to accomplish this right?

This is the work of a mod all on its own

For the 3D suggestion, yes.

However, the 2D improvements suggested are pretty much the system we have now, but with more, smaller blocks, different states those blocks could be in, random shapes, and probably also variable strike power so you remove more and more blocks at a time, but at the cost of more randomness, and possibly even completely ruining the rock if you hit hard enough.

EDIT:

Microblocks have been confirmed almost for sure, I'm curious how is this that much different from the current knapping GUI? It would just check for shapes it recognizes when someone right clicks. I also know very little about coding although i have tried before so obviously I must be missing something.

It's actually, in terms of gameplay, surprisingly different. Randomly generated rock shapes would mean sometimes, you might not be able to easily make the tool you're after with the rock you have, and smaller blocks would allow there to be an additional random component added to the strikes themselves, where, as I suggested, you could have risk/benefits decisions going on about how hard you want to hit. Do you want the tool to take forever to make? Or would you rather risk making a poor tool, or even no tools at all?

On top of this, adding different microblock states, such as 'sharpened' or 'unsharpened', might give way to more organic or dynamic tool detection or creation, and might also, if Bioxx wants to spend the time developing it, give the possibility of your tools and stones maintaining their knapping shape after being created, and using stone tools might 'knap' away at that shape, making it gradually less and less effective unless you bring up the tool's shape with another rock in the crafting grid, and sharpened or reshaped it in the grid.

Of course, just having the closeness of the knapping GUI's shape to the 'ideal' shape determine the tool's durability is perfectly fine, rather then having to maintain the tool after it's made.

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Microblocks have been confirmed almost for sure, I'm curious how is this that much different from the current knapping GUI? It would just check for shapes it recognizes when someone right clicks. I also know very little about coding although i have tried before so obviously I must be missing something.

It's actually, in terms of gameplay, surprisingly different. Randomly generated rock shapes would mean sometimes, you might not be able to easily make the tool you're after with the rock you have, and smaller blocks would allow there to be an additional random component added to the strikes themselves, where, as I suggested, you could have risk/benefits decisions going on about how hard you want to hit. Do you want the tool to take forever to make? Or would you rather risk making a poor tool, or even no tools at all?

On top of this, adding different microblock states, such as 'sharpened' or 'unsharpened', might give way to more organic or dynamic tool detection or creation, and might also, if Bioxx wants to spend the time developing it, give the possibility of your tools and stones maintaining their knapping shape after being created, and using stone tools might 'knap' away at that shape, making it gradually less and less effective unless you bring up the tool's shape with another rock in the crafting grid, and sharpened or reshaped it in the grid.

Of course, just having the closeness of the knapping GUI's shape to the 'ideal' shape determine the tool's durability is perfectly fine, rather then having to maintain the tool after it's made.

This^

It seems I may have been less specific with the 2d model for organic knapping, which is the most supported form. Let me explain:

When you hit a rock, it would shave off a "layer" of rock, making the item thinner both effectively (lighter, weaker, sharpness or point) and visually (lighter or darker shades of the same color, indicating that this layer is separated from the top layer). A rock that becomes defined would not only have chips off the sides, but also layers down. When you hit a rock with a light hit, it has a chance of breaking off a small area (light hits breaks none randomly), and a hard hit would have a higher chance of breaking off a larger (and more random) area. This breaking would, of course, occur in both the 2d and thickness directions. For all purposes, a tool's thickness is considered even on both sides (symmetrical), and the effect zones may be applied or determined the same as the 3d models. (That is, if you apply zones, a "sharpness" zone would be applied via a button to an edge of the tool, and that end would act like a hacking weapon/tool; For the 3d-2d method, a tapering thickness to an edge would give the same effect)

Hope that cleared up any confusion about my ideas. Any on making this less programming or ram intensive, please tell.

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Any on making this less programming or ram intensive, please tell.

This is actually why I keep saying there should only be two block states; sharpened, and unsharpened. less points of data, and it's just simpler.

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This is actually why I keep saying there should only be two block states; sharpened, and unsharpened. less points of data, and it's just simpler.

Oh.

OOHHH!

*facepalms*

I misinterpreted your first post about that, I though you meant a quality to add to a pixel to make it sharper, not to just define a sharp point and keep it all 2d.

Honestly, if this idea is implemented in any way, I will be happy(er). I would like to see layers better, but keeping it pure 2d and just adding sharpness quality (and perhaps some thinning quality, for more variance) would be fine. A 1 block tip with sharpness would be a pointed end. Please still consider the rest of my first post though, even if you like abculatter_2's model better.

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Of all of this, the part I found viable and that would add a bit of challenge to the game without requiring a team of coders would be that when you knap a rock it wouldn't be a perfect square but would have edge bits missing, like a randomly shaped rock. Would mean to craft the tool you want you may have to go through a rock or two to find one big enough and with the right shape for that axe.

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3d coding is a bit never-plausible-possible occurrence in Java.... CAD software has to written in high-level binary, or it's own language. Trust me. Even at my low-level of understanding robotic and manufacturing engineering, i do use CAD a lot. Especially 3d cad, and it is super complicated. The geometric restraints are simple laws, but each must be applied to adapt to the design: Example, I used 3d cad to design a dragon light plate. The geometry restraints didn't allow me to make it physically impossible. This year, i will work with a laser mill, in which it uses 2d cad that reads out A LOT of constraints. AKA, it is extreme geometry, the bane of all existing life forms.

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How bout, the knapping grid is increased to 10x10 or 15x15, and the general crafting recipe is the same, but there could be more detail, like sharpness and size.

Depending on how many blocks are left in the grid after a full craft, the tool can have different efficiency or durability. Small toolhead = higher speed, lower durability, big toolhead = slower speed, higher durability.

Or some other good 2-D jazz like that.

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How bout, the knapping grid is increased to 10x10 or 15x15, and the general crafting recipe is the same, but there could be more detail, like sharpness and size.

That'd only make the process more tedius, without increasing....any beneficial game effect.

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That'd only make the process more tedius, without increasing....any beneficial game effect.

hey, hey, hey. WHAT IF, There was the normal 5x5 squares, for "the rough cut," but if you wanted a more better-er tool, there would be subsquares within each square for a finer cut. That way, it's not tedious, and finer tools are an OPTION.

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3d coding is a bit never-plausible-possible occurrence in Java.... CAD software has to written in high-level binary, or it's own language. Trust me. Even at my low-level of understanding robotic and manufacturing engineering, i do use CAD a lot. Especially 3d cad, and it is super complicated. The geometric restraints are simple laws, but each must be applied to adapt to the design: Example, I used 3d cad to design a dragon light plate. The geometry restraints didn't allow me to make it physically impossible. This year, i will work with a laser mill, in which it uses 2d cad that reads out A LOT of constraints. AKA, it is extreme geometry, the bane of all existing life forms.

Yeah, I figured that. My original 3d model idea was for 2d, just clicking a button to flip the grid to a different view, but even that would be necessarily complex. 2d is definitely the way to go.

How bout, the knapping grid is increased to 10x10 or 15x15, and the general crafting recipe is the same, but there could be more detail, like sharpness and size.

Depending on how many blocks are left in the grid after a full craft, the tool can have different efficiency or durability. Small toolhead = higher speed, lower durability, big toolhead = slower speed, higher durability.

Or some other good 2-D jazz like that.

That'd only make the process more tedius, without increasing....any beneficial game effect.

hey, hey, hey. WHAT IF, There was the normal 5x5 squares, for "the rough cut," but if you wanted a more better-er tool, there would be subsquares within each square for a finer cut. That way, it's not tedious, and finer tools are an OPTION.

Up above it was stated that this system would use microblocks (pixel-sized), and wouldn't be tedious unless you wanted a perfect result, because you could hit with different strengths. So yeah.

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I feel like, even if we were to make knapping "organic", the function determining what a tools does best will still have optima. These will, at some point, be in the wiki. "Need an axe that doubles as a shovel and weapon? Do exactly this:"

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I feel like, even if we were to make knapping "organic", the function determining what a tools does best will still have optima. These will, at some point, be in the wiki. "Need an axe that doubles as a shovel and weapon? Do exactly this:"

An axe is a weapon, as is a shovel. Yes, there will be optimum designs. It's the same as smithing has optimum patterns. However, they will not show on the wiki because bioxx doesn't want them to, and there is a certain uncertainty when trying to knapp a stone such that the optimum result is not always possible. Also, there are different qualities of an item presented that could balance that out, the shape vs. Area/Structure/Weight. I say, Axe-Spades? Sure. Pick-hammers? Yes please.

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