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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Devlin

Dragons, ideas. community collaberation page

209 posts in this topic

As pointed out earlier, here on the forums there is a distinction (perhaps a bit unique) between "realism" and "believability". Walking skeletons aren't being removed as far as I know, and the game is heavily influenced by Dwarf Fortress, so use it as a basis for what is "believable" but still not realistic.

http://dwarffortress.../v0.31:Creature

1) Vanilla minecraft has magic potions, those have been removed, along with other magical effects (enchanting, redstone)

2) Dwarf Fortress has magic, it just hasn't been coded yet

3) Just because the base mobs haven't been replaced, doesn't mean a whole lot (absense of evidence is not evidence of absense).

For anyone with time to waste there is a show about dragons from Animal Planet. Here are some previews:

http://animal.discov...-of-dragons.htm

Guh, Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real. Had almost zero scientific backing. Hell, they even used the Hydrogen Balloon theory (see point #4, above) to explain both flight and fire breath.

Worst "documentary" ever made.

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Just FYI, dragons are not believable.

1) Size. I forget the exact measurements above which it would impossible for the creature to fly, but I think it was 3 meters.

2) Skeletal structure. They have six limbs so unless it's an insect, it can't exist.

3) Breath weapons. Go on, rationalize that one. I'll wait.

4) Heading this off at the pass: Hydrogen Sack. In order to have enough lift to carry a critter the size of a small child, the hydrogen sack would need to be 30 feet in diameter.

well neither is a world made of perfectly metre cubes, but im not complaining about that

and responses to your stuff

1. technically no, its relative wing size compared to bosy size that setermines the ability to fly, if the dragons were to be huge, their wings would be massive too

2. who says that there cant be six limbs? and if there cant, then the front limbs would double as wings

3. does it even matter if they can breathe fire or not? overworld dragons wouldnt need fire, they would just step on you if you piss them off, and the aggressive dragons would be in the nether so some fiery characteristic o the nether would let them do that

4. hydrogen sac? are you suggesting that dragons would be hot air baloons?

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Just FYI, dragons are not believable.

1) Size. I forget the exact measurements above which it would impossible for the creature to fly, but I think it was 3 meters.

2) Skeletal structure. They have six limbs so unless it's an insect, it can't exist.

3) Breath weapons. Go on, rationalize that one. I'll wait.

4) Heading this off at the pass: Hydrogen Sack. In order to have enough lift to carry a critter the size of a small child, the hydrogen sack would need to be 30 feet in diameter.

You didn't even look at the link, did you? If you had, you would have realized that that post was sarcasm.

You don't need scientific evidence to disprove dragons, because that would be delving into the realm of realism, not believability. Believability is the average layman going "Hm, this seems like it could exist under the right conditions", not "This is physically impossible and here are my reasons why". Also I don't understand why six limbs is a problem. Just because there are no living reptiles with six limbs doesn't mean it's impossible. Other than that, I won't try to rationalize because it's quite obvious to someone scientifically minded that dragons wouldn't exist in their popular depiction in reality. But they could in a game, because it is a game.

edit: I quoted the wrong post and then when I went to quote the right one I didn't realize it overwrote my existing post so I essentially left a blank post for about two hours. Sorry.

edit2: actually my original post was still there how do I delete posts

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Just FYI, dragons are not believable.

1) Size. I forget the exact measurements above which it would impossible for the creature to fly, but I think it was 3 meters.

2) Skeletal structure. They have six limbs so unless it's an insect, it can't exist.

3) Breath weapons. Go on, rationalize that one. I'll wait.

4) Heading this off at the pass: Hydrogen Sack. In order to have enough lift to carry a critter the size of a small child, the hydrogen sack would need to be 30 feet in diameter.

Proof dragons are real:

1. Reptiles are well known for their ability to continue growing as long as they have enough food to sustain and more.

2. There have been archeological finds which show hollow boned flying reptiles did exist.

3. Legends tend to stretch reality into fiction, I personally think this legend should instead say "Their bites burn like fire."

4. What non-sense is this I hear about "hydrogen sacks?"

5. We as a race tend to conceal the faults we have in the actions we have committed. Nobody finds dragons anymore due to the fact that when there was enough food for certain reptiles to gain their legendary sizes we banded together and for the safety of society killed them. Why do we not see dragons anymore? Not enough food in the areas we drain and when they get big enough to become a problem we kill them before they do.

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1) Vanilla minecraft has magic potions, those have been removed, along with other magical effects (enchanting, redstone)

2) Dwarf Fortress has magic, it just hasn't been coded yet

3) Just because the base mobs haven't been replaced, doesn't mean a whole lot (absense of evidence is not evidence of absense).

Guh, Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real. Had almost zero scientific backing. Hell, they even used the Hydrogen Balloon theory (see point #4, above) to explain both flight and fire breath.

Worst "documentary" ever made.

1. Dragons aren't necessarily magical, just fictional. Unless your first point is directly connected to your second point I don't see how that is relevant.

2. So? We're not talking about magic here.

3. Don't misrepresent what I'm saying. I said that as far as I know, skeletons aren't planned on being removed (as in, won't be removed in the future). I could be wrong though. But if they, as fictional and "non-realistic", can fit in TFC, so can dragons.

Yes. It wasn't an argument for dragons, it was just an anecdote for people interested in the "science" behind what-would-be dragons. Besides, I think you've misunderstood the point of the show. The point of the show wasn't to prove that dragons exist, but to examine if they could exist, based on what has been written about them in historical (mythological) records.

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they already have mods for this, the animations are a bit hard to get right, but it is actually very simple to code the player onto a dragon, it would basically be a stack effect like with skeletons and spiders, or players and pigs. hell i used spc (single play commands to put a skeleton on an enderdragon once, looked pretty good until the skeleton shoot the enderdragon and the dragon killed him

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4. hydrogen sac? are you suggesting that dragons would be hot air baloons?

I do believe that was an argument against such a thing. Posted Image

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Just FYI, dragons are not believable.

1) Size. I forget the exact measurements above which it would impossible for the creature to fly, but I think it was 3 meters.

2) Skeletal structure. They have six limbs so unless it's an insect, it can't exist.

3) Breath weapons. Go on, rationalize that one. I'll wait.

4) Heading this off at the pass: Hydrogen Sack. In order to have enough lift to carry a critter the size of a small child, the hydrogen sack would need to be 30 feet in diameter.

You didn't even look at the link, did you? If you had, you would have realized that that post was sarcasm.

1. its a game, as long as the wings look big enough it is believable.

2. ever heard of evolution? there are many creature constantly evolving and changing. in fact many scientists believe that the idea of a mammal with more then 4 limbs is a likely possibility. oh and they are lizard/amphibians which are know to have the most diverse and easily rewritten genetics. in fact there are many cases where lizards have been born "mutated" with more then 4 limbs, albeit most often they are not able to use them but it shows that have the potential for such a step in the evolutionary chain. oh and to further the idea of reptilian DNA being flexible and diverse, when exposed to outside influences like radiation and such most reptile will rapidly mutate in the middle of their life to accommodate new variations in their DNA. meaning rapid growth and changes are possible. in fact reptiles are more closely related to insects on the evolutionary chain then mammals and most other types of animals. take frogs into consideration and how they go through a metamorphosis from a tadpole to a frog. this process could easily be applied to a dragons life cycle, starting off as large lizards and as they grow older their genetic code alters to allow them to grow exponentially and develop wings. there are creatures who already go through a similar process, albeit most are insectiod in nature, but again reptiles and amphibians are the closest to insects on the evolutionary chain.

3. this is already an existing natural weapon in nature, again mostly in insects but i go back to the evolutionary chain and state how dormant traits from previous evolutionary stages often carry over, just waiting for when they are needed or become dominant again.

4. again this is focused on believability, not realism, you are confusing the two, which anyone with half a brain would not due. believability is that it looks possible and feels possible. NOT that it is real or possible, just so it feels real and natural. you can go off and act like a big know it all but the fact is that this is supposed to be a fun game focused not on reality in anyway but believability and i cannot stress that enough. Bioxx himself has stated this time and again, has stated that magic and mythology will have its place in this overhaul as long as he can make them fit into this world. oh and i have a bachelors in biology, not molecular biology, not neural biology, not microbiology, general biology, meaning i study it all, so go fuck yourself, dragons may not be possible IRL but they are sure as hell possible in evolutionary theory.

i know my grammar is terrible, but deal with it, its the bleeding internet, and i could not care less about my grammar online.

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1. its a game, as long as the wings look big enough it is believable.

My point behind #1 is that there is an upper limit on how big the critter can be. Square Cube Law.

As body length doubles, wing size needs to double again (so four times larger) and there is a point where the wings become so large as to collapse under their own weight.

Anything large enough for a human to ride would need titanium bones in order to spread its wings.

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1) Vanilla minecraft has magic potions, those have been removed, along with other magical effects (enchanting, redstone)

2) Dwarf Fortress has magic, it just hasn't been coded yet

3) Just because the base mobs haven't been replaced, doesn't mean a whole lot (absense of evidence is not evidence of absense).

Guh, Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real. Had almost zero scientific backing. Hell, they even used the Hydrogen Balloon theory (see point #4, above) to explain both flight and fire breath.

Worst "documentary" ever made.

1. yes they have been removed but Bioxx also plans on reimplementing them at a later point in the overhauls development. and redstone has not been removed, it is still apart of the game, you just can't make certain redstone items yet because he has not found a believable recipe/ way to make them.

2. i just got DF 3 days ago and can't really figure it out plus this comment is not exactly clear on what you mean so no comment.

3. Bioxx has already stated that he plans to keep the current mobs, just redo how they spawn, maybe make them spawn in caves and graveyards only, IDK but it still stands, you want a perfectly realistic game and this is not going to be that kind of mod so get over yourself or find a new mod.

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Just FYI, dragons are not believable.

1) Size. I forget the exact measurements above which it would impossible for the creature to fly, but I think it was 3 meters.

2) Skeletal structure. They have six limbs so unless it's an insect, it can't exist.

3) Breath weapons. Go on, rationalize that one. I'll wait.

4) Heading this off at the pass: Hydrogen Sack. In order to have enough lift to carry a critter the size of a small child, the hydrogen sack would need to be 30 feet in diameter.

You didn't even look at the link, did you? If you had, you would have realized that that post was sarcasm.

*cracks knuckles* Hoo, lemme sink riiight on into this.

1) Sufficient wingspan would allow any creature to fly as long as they were tough enough and had powerful enough Pectoral and Supracoracoideus muscles, as well as a secondary ambulative pair of scapula.

2) Really? You must show us these stone-graven commandments of skeletomuscularity you're working from, they'd make my job much much easier.

3) Ignitable gas in the GI tract and a spark from a metallic element in the jaw if you want to go the Discovery Channel way, or if you want to emulate NASA or bugs, you could have snake-like venom glands in the mouth that spray highly reactive chemical mixtures

4) We all agree that Flight of Dragons was a good movie, but I sincerely doubt they had a bio department working for them. Few if any people are going to base their 'research' off of that.

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*cracks knuckles* Hoo, lemme sink riiight on into this.

1) Sufficient wingspan would allow any creature to fly as long as they were tough enough and had powerful enough Pectoral and Supracoracoideus muscles, as well as a secondary ambulative pair of scapula.

2) Really? You must show us these stone-graven commandments of skeletomuscularity you're working from, they'd make my job much much easier.

3) Ignitable gas in the GI tract and a spark from a metallic element in the jaw if you want to go the Discovery Channel way, or if you want to emulate NASA or bugs, you could have snake-like venom glands in the mouth that spray highly reactive chemical mixtures

4) We all agree that Flight of Dragons was a good movie, but I sincerely doubt they had a bio department working for them. Few if any people are going to base their 'research' off of that.

ah, just one of the many reasons you're awesome

this guy definitely knows whats up

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*cracks knuckles* Hoo, lemme sink riiight on into this.

1) Sufficient wingspan would allow any creature to fly as long as they were tough enough and had powerful enough Pectoral and Supracoracoideus muscles, as well as a secondary ambulative pair of scapula.

2) Really? You must show us these stone-graven commandments of skeletomuscularity you're working from, they'd make my job much much easier.

3) Ignitable gas in the GI tract and a spark from a metallic element in the jaw if you want to go the Discovery Channel way, or if you want to emulate NASA or bugs, you could have snake-like venom glands in the mouth that spray highly reactive chemical mixtures

4) We all agree that Flight of Dragons was a good movie, but I sincerely doubt they had a bio department working for them. Few if any people are going to base their 'research' off of that.

1) Muscles add weight. A lot of weight. In fact, they're probably the densest organ in the entire body.

2) To counter, feel free to work out where all the musculature goes such that the wings and the forelegs are in the same relative body position (go on, I'll wait here for you to figure out that you need two sets of pectorals and that there's only one place to attach the not-a-limb end, and that the two limbs start interfering with each other)

3) Because the Discovery Channel way was backed by real science (cough, hydrogen balloon, cough)

4) I mentioned that film...where, exactly? (Red Herring Alert!)

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3) Because the Discovery Channel way was backed by real science (cough, hydrogen balloon, cough)

because the discovery channel people were totally being sertious when they made that film
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because the discovery channel people were totally being sertious when they made that film

No, they weren't. But people point to it as if they were.

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No, they weren't. But people point to it as if they were.

i wasnt, i was just stating things i previously knew about dragons

if you're gonna try and refute something, at least learn a bit about that thing before you go off on it

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why are you even fighting about this:D

i mean...dunk already said they MIGHT be implemented so he's not totally against this, which means that the level of believability he gives to dragons seems to be okay with the goal that he wants to achieve with TFC ...

Also Dragons are a fictional creature, therefore ALL of it's biological details are or can be fictional too...so it's not really important if they fit with REAL biology...

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Also Dragons are a fictional creature, therefore ALL of it's biological details are or can be fictional too...so it's not really important if they fit with REAL biology...

This.

What i see here is that those who are against dragons in the game -only Draco*, i think :- are trying to use scientifical, real life facts to counteract their addition. No, no, no, no, no...

We are not talking about creating real life dragons and releasing them in the world to see what happens, we are talking about adding a mithical creature, with it's own mithical biology, to a game which already as and will keep having mithical aspects which don't really make that much sense -magical moving and arrow-firing skeletons which can see you even with their complete lack of eyes-. It doesn't needs to make sense in real life, 'cause they are not going to be "added" to real life. If you want to argue against an addition to a game, do it from that game's perspective, not real life perspective. Anything added to a game can make sense, as long as it works in the way everything else in the game works.

*By the way, i find it a little ironic that a guy which's username is "Draco" -In latin, "Dragon"- is against the addition of dragons to a game... :

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*By the way, i find it a little ironic that a guy which's username is "Draco" -In latin, "Dragon"- is against the addition of dragons to a game... :

And that is ... irony.
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Deep in the heart of a cold mountain in the far north, where crops can no longer grow and only wolves and bears prowl the night, lies a sleeping monster. It is powerful beyond belief and guards untold treasures and secrets.

Hope this wets your appetites ;)

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*By the way, i find it a little ironic that a guy which's username is "Draco" -In latin, "Dragon"- is against the addition of dragons to a game... :

Not "into a game" but "into this mod." I don't feel as if dragons fit the theme of this mod.

Keep in mind that I enjoy fantasy, I enjoy science fiction, I can even get behind a blend of the two (*drools* Shadowrun), but I feel as if this mod is trying to be...not realistic (we've had this discussion) but towards the "real" end of the "real <---> fantasy" gradient.

There are no fantasy metals, no magic wands, no transmutation, and so on.

(Zombies and skeletons I see as "generic enemies" that fit almost any genre, not specifically magical necromancy--afterall, a zombie film can have zombies without them being undead, right?*)

Dragons, in my book, fall a little farther towards the "fantasy" end of the spectrum. They don't have to be magical creatures persay, but their mere presense shifts that balance. It's still the dev's final decision, of course, but I just feel that suggesting dragons is like suggesting magic wands.

*I Am Legend qualifies

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1) Muscles add weight. A lot of weight. In fact, they're probably the densest organ in the entire body.

2) To counter, feel free to work out where all the musculature goes such that the wings and the forelegs are in the same relative body position (go on, I'll wait here for you to figure out that you need two sets of pectorals and that there's only one place to attach the not-a-limb end, and that the two limbs start interfering with each other)

3) Because the Discovery Channel way was backed by real science (cough, hydrogen balloon, cough)

4) I mentioned that film...where, exactly? (Red Herring Alert!)

1) Correct. Birds must therefore be incapable of flight due to their fucking enormous muscles in the areas I mentioned. I've obviously been hallucinating all these years.

2) It's already been done for me and illustrated by Todd Lockwood in the 3.5 edition D&D Draconomicon, but I actually did it myself a few years ago for shits and giggles. Cake, as long as you know basic A&P

3a) And yet I'm not hearing a cogent argument about how it's impossible -protip, it isn't-. 3b) I also mentioned a non-discovery method backed by RL biology that you completely glossed over

4) Well you implied that the gas balloon was the sole (or t least major) source of lift, which was the explanation in the cited film. You were obviously not talking about the discovery show, which depicted the bags as just being an extra little boost of buoyancy to help it bridge the meager lift requirement left after the wings

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Not "into a game" but "into this mod." I don't feel as if dragons fit the theme of this mod.

Keep in mind that I enjoy fantasy, I enjoy science fiction, I can even get behind a blend of the two (*drools* Shadowrun), but I feel as if this mod is trying to be...not realistic (we've had this discussion) but towards the "real" end of the "real <---> fantasy" gradient.

There are no fantasy metals, no magic wands, no transmutation, and so on.

(Zombies and skeletons I see as "generic enemies" that fit almost any genre, not specifically magical necromancy--afterall, a zombie film can have zombies without them being undead, right?*)

Dragons, in my book, fall a little farther towards the "fantasy" end of the spectrum. They don't have to be magical creatures persay, but their mere presense shifts that balance. It's still the dev's final decision, of course, but I just feel that suggesting dragons is like suggesting magic wands.

*I Am Legend qualifies

Fantasy or not, dragons have played a major role in the cultures and lives of peoples all over the world, and regardless of their biological integrity or how legitimate they feel, they've had a huge impact on the development of society and civilization, merely because people believed they were real. In TFC, they just might be.
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Deep in the heart of a cold mountain in the far north, where crops can no longer grow and only wolves and bears prowl the night, lies a sleeping monster. It is powerful beyond belief and guards untold treasures and secrets.

Hope this wets your appetites ;)

Ó_Ò..... oh...my...god. No matter how many exclamation points I use, no matter how many capital letters, no matter how many omg's, I can not sum my feelings about this in words.

I am at a loss.

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