Content: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Background: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to TerraFirmaCraft Forums

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

  • Announcements

    • Dries007

      ATTENTION Forum Database Breach   03/04/2019

      There has been a breach of our database. Please make sure you change your password (use a password manager, like Lastpass).
      If you used this password anywhere else, change that too! The passwords themselves are stored hashed, but may old accounts still had old, insecure (by today's standards) hashes from back when they where created. This means they can be "cracked" more easily. Other leaked information includes: email, IP, account name.
      I'm trying my best to find out more and keep everyone up to date. Discord (http://invite.gg/TerraFirmaCraft) is the best option for up to date news and questions. I'm sorry for this, but the damage has been done. All I can do is try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
    • Claycorp

      This forum is now READ ONLY!   01/20/2020

      As of this post and forever into the future this forum has been put into READ ONLY MODE. There will be no new posts! A replacement is coming SoonTM . If you wish to stay up-to-date on whats going on or post your content. Please use the Discord or Sub-Reddit until the new forums are running.

      Any questions or comments can be directed to Claycorp on either platform.
Bioxx

Official Death Penalty Discussion

262 posts in this topic

A new underlying stat (sort of like saturation for hunger) would be "general health" versus the visible "health points". This has been suggested before, but always with other things added on that aren't that needed for a simple system.

General health is a pool that can be capped out at 1000, starting a fresh game with a new character starts you at 500 general health.

At maxed points you would receive 25% faster heal rate, 20% faster sprint, and 3 extra breath bubbles.

At at 90-100% you have max current stats. each 10% threshold below that removes half a heart/drumstick/air bubble, till you effectively have half stats at 0% general health. This means even after starving for a crazy long time and dying several times, the game is still playable, there's just a penalty for consistently playing badly. On the flipside, those who prepare, keep healthy and survive well will get a nice bonus.

General health would be promoted in several ways:

- Keeping fatigue above a certain point by eating food, like > 80%, would promote a gradual addition to general health. +1 per minute

- Eating high content food (3 or more drumsticks) would give a slight boost to general health. (aka bonus for meats and, hopefully eventually, prepared foods) +5 each

- Don't get injured for extended periods of time, kicks in after 5 minutes of not getting injured, but isn't turned off until taking at least 1 heart of damage so you're not punished for walking over floating dirt or a single small jump that's just a bit too far. +1 per minute

- Sleeping in a bed at night would give either a flat bonus if you fastforward to day or a gradual bonus if you just hang in bed like on SMP. +10 for fast forward, +1 per minute for simply "resting" at night while on SMP.

General health would be detracted from by the following:

- Taking damage also damages your general health, at 1 point per half heart lost. This means consistently going out and getting your body torn apart will gradually harm your health.

- Having < 20% of your hunger bar left will start to decrease your general health. -1 per minute

- Starving (no hunger bar left) will only take you to half of your max health, but your general health will start decreasing rapidly. -10 per minute.

- Drowning, poison, and fire causes you to lose 1 point of general health per half heart lost in addition to the point lost due to loss of health.

- Death cuts your general health in half. Meaning you technically start from ground zero in regards to general health if you die while at max general health. If you just started and you die, you're general health would be 250, still livable but not game over. This would mean the initial death would always suck the worst and subsequent deaths, while bad, won't cause you to become exponentially worse.

I think this gives a viable reason to live a healthy life, survive well, be cautious, eat good and prepared food, and in general avoid setting yourself on fire.

TLDR: Hobbits have stolen the precious and are currently roflcoptering their way into Mordor due to not being able to simply walk into it.

i propose combining this with the suggestion involving experience points.

so, as you all know, you start at level 0 on any new world or after you die. after accomplishing some physical labor, steve gets a bit stronger. also. this is the basis of the experience point system suggested earlier.

first, what should be affected by experience? first, nothing that can be improved by getting better items. increase digging speed? nope, that's what better picks and shovels are for. more health? nope, armor artificially increases health. longer lasting hunger? eat steak.

so what does that leave? well, off the top of my head, movement speed, jumping height, safe falling distance, length of underwater breathing (since you can't get the breathing enchant on a helmet), maximum weight carried if it is implemented,, and probably a few other things i can't think of.

next, gaining experience should be rebalanced. there should be more ways to gain experience, and the current way (i think it is only killing things?) should be limited to hostile mobs and the amount gained should be decreased. ways to gain experience should be by doing things that require strength or dexterity on Steve's part, like killing hostile mobs, cutting trees, mining ore, and successfully smithing ingots and tools/armor (debatable, due to exploitablility in smithing then melting an ingot). NOT digging out blocks whose tool is the shovel, mining stone, or using the hoe. (due to exploitability) as well as by maintaining overall good health (read the quoted post for info on that.)

so what happens when you level up? I'm glad you asked, reader! you gain a very small increase to the affected stats, maybe an increase of 1% of what the current standard is, so if steve can jump one block high now, at level 10 he would jump 1.1 blocks. not a large increase, but combined with the movement speed increase, he would jump farther as well, he would also be able to hold his breath 10% longer, and safely land a drop of a longer distance (i think you take damage at a 3 block drop, so at lvl 10 you would only take damage at a drop of 3.3 blocks) so if you are hit off of a cliff by a mob, you might take a little less damage upon landing.

likewise, as detailed in the quoted post, you would also LOSE experience by doing things that would potentially weaken or cause illness to you. this includes taking damage, having low food, starving, burning, and drowning. dying would reset your level to 0, with the possibility of collecting a few levels of experience if you find your death spot in time.

to prevent the "superhuman complex" issue raised earlier, there should be a level cap of 50 or 100. this way, you are maxed out at having 150%-200% of the current stats.

experience required per level should be static, since the stats gained are also static (a percent of your lvl 0 stats, not your current)

lastly, all numbers suggested are for demonstration purposes only, and i expect them to be changed to balance if implemented.

that's everything i have as an original idea.

other things that i DO SUPPORT

basic level up system. (if mine isn't used)

respawning after dying with same hunger amount (if you (can) die of starvation, then respawn with a minimum of 3 or so drumsticks, to prevent death ruts)

things that i DO NOT SUPPORT

skill specific levelling up. there are three major reasons for this. first, it makes players go into an "experience farming" mindset. i do not want to see people hopping in place because they want to be able to jump higher, yes it is realistic, but it is also exploitable. second, technical reasons. it requires a lot more work on bioxx's part to make those kinds of cause and effect rules, and would be more straining on a server to track 5 or 10 different experience values per player. third, it creates player expectations that are a nightmare for a mod author. if there is experience for running speed and jumping height, why isn't there one for damage resistance, weapon and tool proficiencies, etc.

the "corpse chest" not only does this actually help people who would rather die than make food, but the potential for it turning into what is essentially a "super zombie" could lead to creative griefing and cause a "death rut" if it happens to be near your spawn point.

tl;dr version.

experience points are worth less individually, can be gained multiple ways, affect some base stats, can be lost, and amount required per level is static, rather than exponential.

this is my long term idea, short term solution would be to have hunger after death reflect hunger at time of death, to a minimum of 3 drumsticks to prevent "death ruts"

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keys and food variety have already been suggested and shot down in different threads, good ideas though.

Henricus: I'm not sure if its quite believable to make your health boosted by artifacts, and potions have never seemed like a good need for anything they are more of a if you need a slight boost thing though. I suppose that extra could be given as a small boost however we would probably want a "natural" way to boost health. If we want experience to drop from a kill it should drop not randomly gather into nonexistent bottles.

Alright, so I'm not so sure that how much health they spawn with truly matters as long as it is small enough to force a recovery time. Same deal with hunger. Now the problem we have is that we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either we do no teleporting and keep it "believable" and risk a death rut or necromancy. Or we teleport home and completely remove them from all danger. Neither of these are effective at preventing the problems of death. So we just go to the last page and take a nice look at my previous suggestion.

We teleport to remove from danger and remove from "battle" as to not cause anymore issues, but we don't teleport all the way home so they don't gain immediate protection. We teleport them to either their position two-five minutes ago or the last time they had a line of sight to the sky which ever happened the furthest back in-time. We also would require a certain distance to be teleported to prevent from people easily returning to long battles or people teleporting directly into their house. If they had not traveled that far in their time playing it would teleport them the remainder of the distance.

This system make sure no one gets lost, no one can keep respawning over and over if they have died in a deep hole or a trap, no one could stay in a battle indefinitely, no one would enter a death rut, no one gets to teleport to complete safety. Any other issues anyone can see? Does anyone have a suggested time or distance required for the teleport?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-snip-

i don't believe teleporting when you die should be touched at all. the reason being, if you worked to make a safe place to spawn in, then you deserve that place. and it is completely irrelevant to the original issue at hand, which is removing situations where death is preferable. it is not viable as fast travel because you cannot take items with you when you die. meaning if you had anything valuable with you, you either need to go back and get it or risk losing it. if this were terraria, where you could take items with you when you died, then your suggestion would hold validity.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry I should have further explained that. The problem is "protection" can be nothing more than about 22 pieces of wood, three pieces of wool and a handful of sticks. That creates absolute and total protection, unless you are an idiot. And that set up doesn't even require digging if you made a bunker you would need even less. It takes almost no work.

Death is not preferable but it almost never creates one of those "No, I beg of you, don't die now" moments. Death should be feared not accepted. Also the bed makes no sense at all no matter how you try to explain it. If it represents people crawling back with very little health then I should see people crawling. My death scheme is at least explain by the dream theory which is better than nothing considering we can't model actual death, without playing on Hardcore mode.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry I should have further explained that. The problem is "protection" can be nothing more than about 22 pieces of wood, three pieces of wool and a handful of sticks. That creates absolute and total protection, unless you are an idiot. And that set up doesn't even require digging if you made a bunker you would need even less. It takes almost no work.

Death is not preferable but it almost never creates one of those "No, I beg of you, don't die now" moments. Death should be feared not accepted. Also the bed makes no sense at all no matter how you try to explain it. If it represents people crawling back with very little health then I should see people crawling. My death scheme is at least explain by the dream theory which is better than nothing considering we can't model actual death, without playing on Hardcore mode.

you could easily say that in your dream theory, when you die in the dream you return to the dream at the last point where you either slept in a bed or where you started when you entered the dream. (spawnpoint)

also, the "not fearing death" point holds little validity, IMO. I've had a few instances where i was lost in a cave, found awesome ore, then saw a creeper rushing at me. After I finished cursing at the screen, I knew I wouldn't get back to the vein in time to recover my mining, if i was even able to find my way back. I honestly don't see how having a short range backtrack teleport from your point of death is a progressive change in the death system. although it is true that it is easy to make a basic shelter, as soon as you walk out, you are potentially in danger again, unless you have a forest of torches. the new spawn mechanics only affect a single chunk, which is tiny and mobs will wander in from adjacent chunks.

finally, with my suggestion seen a few posts up, the player character would actually die, and you could be said to be a new character, albeit one who conveniently woke up in a house. in gameplay, this makes sense, because i've never seen a game where when you die, you don't wake up either at a centralized spawn point, a place of your choosing, or your last save point. this mod is intended for more believability, not total realism at the cost of gameplay enjoyability.

EDIT: also i think it would be quite taxing on the servers to track everyone's last viable respawn position. no more taxing than my suggestion, but it has far less gameplay value for the resources required, again, IMO.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could but that hasn't been the traditional, view of things of you die in a dream you wake up if you manage to come back its going to be where you were a bit ago. Although I suppose there is no real way to tell for an average that is just how my dreams work.

There is almost never a point like that and if there is it is a oh shoot, guess I'm going to have to go looking for my stuff. Rather than that moment when you realize you are going to need to spend a ton of time (if all goes as I would like it to at least a day) recovering and knowing that it s going to be even tougher to find as it fades from memory.

The world is dangerous that is why we put people out in the middle rather than snug in their cozy little impenetrable cottage. Third paragraph I'm confused on are you saying that we have a new character everytime? I have seen that once but hopefully you don't have the same idea. Please explain. It seems somewhat, random and unexplainable or should I say unbelievable?

Your final thoughts were a very good point so I have simplified my idea slightly as you are right that would take far too much memory. So what do we do? Save points. It just saves one every now and then as long as you have a sight line to the sky. It saves only the last four and after you have managed to die five times because of your horrible luck then you will spawn in your bed/ spawn point. A fair compromise as I see it, I even tied in someone elses idea. Who came up with that originally the idea of respawn a couple and then teleport to base?

Edit: It was JAG

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know it's a good discussion when you're not even sure who you agree with more! I'm not going to get to into the way of this great, civilized conversation you guys are having to much, I just want to raise a point about the experience suggestion; when a new player enters a PVP server, they would be even more at a disadvantage, besides just lacking in tools. however, this is not a bad thing, as dying is easy enough that the advantage of the senior player would have been long ago negated if he/she were not skilled enough to keep it.

I think I am leaning towards Keliks side despite being at first repulsed by the word "XP". I had "RPG" flash through my mind right away. But with ockhams razor, this solution acomplishes the most while being the least complex. It's quite streamlined. However, I am a bit leery of it, this could turn into something bad if not balanced properly! Of course, Bioxx would most certainly balance whatever he did add wonderfully.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The world is dangerous that is why we put people out in the middle rather than snug in their cozy little impenetrable cottage. Third paragraph I'm confused on are you saying that we have a new character everytime? I have seen that once but hopefully you don't have the same idea. Please explain. It seems somewhat, random and unexplainable or should I say unbelievable?

my idea mixes one of the suggested experience points ideas with the suggested "overall health" hidden stat idea, give it a read over if you haven't already, it's on page 6. essentially, by playing well and living for a long period of time, your character gets small benefits to speed, jumping ability, fall damage resistance, and underwater time. when you die, you lose all of your experience like in vanilla, so it is essentially a complex "discourage death by rewarding longevity" idea. when you die you lose what could have been a significant benefit and have to play for in-game days to earn it back. in my original idea post, i tried to prevent any ideas that would lead to experience being farmable quickly, instead trying to reward the player as they play normally.

edit in response to:

You know it's a good discussion when you're not even sure who you agree with more! I'm not going to get to into the way of this great, civilized conversation you guys are having to much, I just want to raise a point about the experience suggestion; when a new player enters a PVP server, they would be even more at a disadvantage, besides just lacking in tools. however, this is not a bad thing, as dying is easy enough that the advantage of the senior player would have been long ago negated if he/she were not skilled enough to keep it.

I think I am leaning towards Keliks side despite being at first repulsed by the word "XP". I had "RPG" flash through my mind right away. But with ockhams razor, this solution acomplishes the most while being the least complex. It's quite streamlined. However, I am a bit leery of it, this could turn into something bad if not balanced properly! Of course, Bioxx would most certainly balance whatever he did add wonderfully.

yeah i was worried that it would be close to rpg ideas, thats why i stressed that the benefits would be slow-building and that i did not approve of the "individual experience types" ideas. i want it to be something quiet that builds up as you play, that you might not even notice until you die and lose the benefits all at once, not a change that suddenly has people mining pointlessly to get higher levels or to improve their pickaxe proficiency or something. mcmmo already does that, i don't want it in tfc.

Edited by kelik
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We just need to discourage people from killing themselves because it is the easier way out.

When I worked in the Army as Behavioral Health, I'm pretty sure I was given a class with this as the title.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I worked in the Army as Behavioral Health, I'm pretty sure I was given a class with this as the title.

Thanks, now I snorted my cola all over the keyboard...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, now I snorted my cola all over the keyboard...

You mean, you snorted coke? (C wat I did there...)

I laughed at first from sheer surprise, but that is really, profoundly, sad...

Kelik, that's it, you've won me over. You atleast have my vote. I like the idea of a really experienced player siding and then being a little "out of it" because it seems like he/she can't sprint jump as far or dive as deep... +1!

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mean, you snorted coke? (C wat I did there...)

I laughed at first from sheer surprise, but that is really, profoundly, sad...

Kelik, that's it, you've won me over. You atleast have my vote. I like the idea of a really experienced player siding and then being a little "out of it" because it seems like he/she can't sprint jump as far or dive as deep... +1!

I looked up "snort" in the dictionary, and found out that it is the opposite of what I meant. So no, it wasn't a hidden joke. It was just me pretending to be a native English speaker, which I'm not. What I meant was that the coke (the drink, not the drug) came out of my noise from, like you said, sheer surprise. It's funny, but in a sad way.

I wonder what Bioxx's view on our ideas is. I'm eagerly waiting on a reply from him.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm waiting for word from him too, I'd love to see what his thoughts on all this are so far

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kelik, that's it, you've won me over. You atleast have my vote. I like the idea of a really experienced player siding and then being a little "out of it" because it seems like he/she can't sprint jump as far or dive as deep... +1!

awesome. I'm glad to hear that I have some support. I'm eager to read Random Name Change Guy's rebuttal, he's a decent debater and I want to see his next counterpoint.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

awesome. I'm glad to hear that I have some support. I'm eager to read Random Name Change Guy's rebuttal, he's a decent debater and I want to see his next counterpoint.

Agreed.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Despite my support for a simple experience system, I'm going to point out the problem.

We've all agreed (I think) that the XP system shouldn't be essential - there shouldn't be anything you are able to do with XP that you couldn't do without. But this means it may be easy for some people to simply ignore XP. If they die all the time they may never build up enough to miss it. So it's possible it wouldn't solve the problem.

You could make the benefits larger of course, but then you risk making them overpowered.

Perhaps if there were some things you could accomplish, or accomplish much more easily with experience ... perhaps some sort of resource only found in deep water (pearls?) where you'd need to be able to hold your breath for awhile to obtain. Or maybe a mob that is very dangerous, and even with good equipment you will probably need plenty of health, but that mob has lots of treasure (troll? dragon?). Nothing essential of course. Not sure if this could be accomplished gracefully, and it kinda kills the advantage of simplicity.

Anyway, I'd be happy to have a simple XP system regardless. :)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

XP solution: Armor/gear debuffs

XP buffs. late game players work on XP to counter the debuff system, early game players have distinct mobile advantage over them. end game users are equal to early game users(survivors vs newly spawned)

this bit needs more work.

rule of thumb: Every buff needs two debuffs

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my idea mixes one of the suggested experience points ideas with the suggested "overall health" hidden stat idea, give it a read over if you haven't already, it's on page 6. essentially, by playing well and living for a long period of time, your character gets small benefits to speed, jumping ability, fall damage resistance, and underwater time. when you die, you lose all of your experience like in vanilla, so it is essentially a complex "discourage death by rewarding longevity" idea. when you die you lose what could have been a significant benefit and have to play for in-game days to earn it back. in my original idea post, i tried to prevent any ideas that would lead to experience being farmable quickly, instead trying to reward the player as they play normally.

Okay good your idea was far different than I thought it was. When you said new character I thought you were going to use that as an explanation for respawning. I've seen it once, I was not in favor (SMP problems, unlikelyhood, unnecessary addition)

Luckily you weren't referring to that. I am definitely for that on only three conditions. There is no set strength, speed, etc. number or at least not one the player can see. People would have to find out there abilities by testing them the same we do in real life or a dream. Also, we don't remove all the way back to zero. It should remove in increments instead. I prefer an equation that could eventually reach zero preferable within five or six deaths for some of the most advanced players. Maybe something like...

.8Ts-.1=TE Where Ts means total at start and TE means total at end. This allows five deaths from a hundred percent strength.

Thanks for the compliment you are quite a debater yourself.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

snip

seems reasonable, i can get behind those, maybe you can see the levels like you do now, but there would be no "bing! speed/jumping/etc. has increased!" message.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My problem with being able to see the stat in a normal way it is somewhat unnecessary. If in any time in really life you wanted to know how high you could jump, you would simply jump, not check a set of numbers. Bioxx and Dunk seem to like to keep the numbers out of TFC notice how difficult it is to find exact number of uses and efficiency for any given tool.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i don't think i was clear, i meant, the gui would be no different. you can see your current level, but not how that affects any stats, your point stands, you want to know how high you can jump? then jump.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad that there is healthy debate occurring here. I'll admit that I've changed my mind a few times about things as I've read through this thread. As far as penalties after death, I do not believe that they are unfair. However, I am taking into consideration the many points made about taking the difficulty level into account when dealing with penalties.

I feel that I should elaborate a little bit on how things are looking in my head atm (by no means does this mean how the final product will actually look). First of all, I liked the idea that someone mentioned of the player waking up with nausea because it goes along with similar ideas that I've had where the player might wake with temporary injuries sustained from the event that killed them. Clearly there would need to be ways to counteract these injuries which would lead to an medicinal system of sorts to deal with ailments.

Removing the benefits of dieing is only part of the solution. Providing a concrete but fair reason to fear death is the other. A healthy dose of fear goes a long way toward making a game enjoyable, as long as the player isn't left yelling "bullshit!" at the screen.

The idea of making a player lose their items when they die would only serve to frustrate players to no end along with the many issues involved with sharing items etc so I won't be going that route.

I believe it was redundantusage that brought up the general health system and I like the gist of where this was headed. Players should IMO be rewarded for not dieing.

I'm tired of typing so I'll leave it at that :)

P.S. I'd also like to state unequivocally that there IS a place for fantasy in TFC. It's an area that I haven't touched on a lot so I understand why some folks keep thinking that its not acceptable for TFC but this couldn't be further from the truth.

9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hm... in terms of medicine, would TFC have it's own version of alchemy? I'm talking about things like a mortar and pestle for grinding plants and herbs down, maybe a pot for brewing them in water that would have to be over a fire pit. It'd be a refreshing change of pace from vanilla potion making. I suppose the pot could double for making stew now that I think about it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wild growing herbs and cultivated versions would be a means of adding basic medicine (as well as something else to flesh out the world as you explore), and if wool ever gets the ability to be turned into cloth you could make it into strips for bandages, or splints when combined with sticks. Two stone in the crafting table with a harvested herb would provide a ground up version of it for more direct usage.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, here's an idea: Dying makes nearby inactive chunks (chunks where monsters don't spawn if you've been there long enough) active, making monsters spawn again.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites