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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
ExplosionGuy

Tribes with A.I. Controlled Characters

75 posts in this topic

When I heard Bioxx talk about how vanilla minecraft is just building on hard mode, I got really excited for this mod, because I have thought the same way for so long. The problem right now is that it's basically the same way when you have all the armor, and tools that you will ever need in TFC. What do you do then? Mine for fun? Not much point. Explore? What is there to see that you haven't already seen?

What if this problem can be helped with something right under our noses...?

AICC's (A.I. Controlled Characters)

I strongly believe that AICC's should be added to the mod because there are so many possibilities that come with them. I could write a novel on how much they can add to the mod. Not only can they take away the feeling of loneliness from SSP, they can also add variety and structure to the world of TFC.

In life people were never alone, and they certainly had a lot of help to reach the age of metallurgy. This can be a problem in SSP because of the fact that is a vast land with absolutely no one in it, and in real-life, it would be impossible to do some of the things that you usually do alone in TFC. If there were NPC's it would add a small, but complete system of economy. The villagers could mine, smith, farm, trade etc. all by them selves with an average of 10-15 other villagers. They could have these jobs, excluding you out of the picture entirely, making some friendly, wanting help from outsiders, and others hostile, only wanting you to go away or even attack you if you come near. Without full armor and weapons these villagers would be nearly impossible to kill alone, so the best idea would be to RUN.

Trust would be an interesting aspect to the people of the tribes/villages also. With the tribes that are neutral, you could have to gain their trust by building for them, selling to them, or working for them so they will accept you into their community. After some time of gaining their trust, instead of saying: "Tribesman" or "Tribeswoman" above them, they could state their names so you can grow a relationship with each one (gaining their personal trust). Even after they fully trust you with their lives, it can not only be ruined very easily, but still be difficult to trade with them. They have to get the materials themselves in order to be able to buy from them, so they may never have what you want from them. The trust that you have to earn can be ruined just by doing one small thing to irritate them, like steal, destroy small/large parts of their village, etc.

Some villages could be advanced in metallurgy and get very large, and others could stay in the stone age, farming/hunting for food and making small huts for their homes. This could add variety within the villages discovery, not only because you have to be careful approaching them, since you don't know whether they will attack you or not, but also because it will give a reason to never stop exploring the vast world of Minecraft.

There are more idea's that could be written, but I think this is enough for now. I would LOVE to see AICC's implemented to the mod for these reasons.

Thanks,

ExplosionGuy

P.S.

You guessed it, AICC's are just another name for NPC's. I didn't want people who are sick of reading NPC suggestions to ignore this post, so I changed the name a bit. I'm sure a lot of people who feel this way realized what they were, but it worked didn't it?

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"Will there be NPC's to fill roles in cities? Added 8/10

Probably not unless a very compelling reason is brought forth. I would rather see players take advantage of the systems than have a computer controlled NPC doing everything."

QUOTED FROM THE KINGDOMS THREAD

------

I am not sure why some people can be so bluntly volatile when you suggest something, but good job, Buc.

ExplosionGuy, AICC's could be a good idea. Flesh it out. Explore the possbilities! What else do they offer!? Sell us the idea! ;)

Also note that with Citizens2 for bukkit, and mods like humans+ and Custom NPCs it would have to be a very compelling reason indeed to code NPCs into this mod, I would think. But again it is just my thought. Keep it flowing!

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hate to say it like this... But basically like this:

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/227822-145-spmp-millenaire-npc-village-326-sounds-for-craftsmen-and-minors-bug-fixes-estonian-translation/

except for TFC? K, thats nice and I would love that but as it is far more work then possible at this time. Perhaps later we can come back to this once bioxx feels up to this challenge of dynamic AI interaction

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"Will there be NPC's to fill roles in cities? Added 8/10

Probably not unless a very compelling reason is brought forth. I would rather see players take advantage of the systems than have a computer controlled NPC doing everything."

QUOTED FROM THE KINGDOMS THREAD

------

I am not sure why some people can be so bluntly volatile when you suggest something, but good job, Buc.

ExplosionGuy, AICC's could be a good idea. Flesh it out. Explore the possbilities! What else do they offer!? Sell us the idea! ;)/>

Also note that with Citizens2 for bukkit, and mods like humans+ and Custom NPCs it would have to be a very compelling reason indeed to code NPCs into this mod, I would think. But again it is just my thought. Keep it flowing!

What do you mean by volatile?

Why would mods have anything to do with this? Mod compatibility will probably be dropped.

To explain them a bit more, they are something more complex than your average Minecraft NPC. They have jobs that they try to do the best they can and they do this not only for survival, but for the tribe that they live in as well. Not all tribes do exactly the same things of course, they are all different in their own ways. Each and every town/village could be different.

There could be multiple types of tribes or even civilizations like Mayan, Byzantine, Aztec, Cherokee, Roman, Egyptians, and possibly more. There could even be fantasy characters like dwarfs, elves, orcs, etc. That would also add some nice variety to the mod. They could be something to make some things about the mod more difficult, while other things easier. It would even give goals to finishing structure projects. The bigger and nicer, the more the people will like it.

Another interesting trait is they could have is treaties and even wars between tribes. They could have allies, neutralism, and enemies with other tribes or civilizations nearby which can help or prevent the advancement of the tribe/civilization.

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hate to say it like this... But basically like this:

http://www.minecraft...an-translation/

except for TFC? K, thats nice and I would love that but as it is far more work then possible at this time. Perhaps later we can come back to this once bioxx feels up to this challenge of dynamic AI interaction

Somewhat, yes. The idea has some similar qualities. I've come to love that mod, but why does this matter? It can't possibly be added to Minecraft with this mod installed, so why are you mentioning it?

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This would be an amazing addition (or addon, but the devs say no to that as well) to the game, but bioxx wants to focus the mod around multiplayer rather than singleplayer (which is weird, since the majority of players play on singleplayer anyway).

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Agreed, I would love to see NPCs of some sort at least in TFC.

Playing singleplayer is indeed pretty pointless as it stands. A little excitement over finding an ore vein, making weapons and armor, getting blue steel, and that's that. You've done it all. Nothing to see here anymore.

NPCs could really add a LOT to both singeplayer and multiplayer, and they shouldn't necessarily do everything instead of the player, but rather require the player to put extra work to help the NPCs survive and expand.

Having NPCs around (By, for example, finding other "survivors" naked in the wild, or what ever) should add new challenges rather then make it easier. It can be done throught mobs invasions, or even more complicated interactions with the NPCs like theft, murder or vandalism. Possibilities are endless.

It would probably take quite a lot of work, but it's doable, and if Bioxx wills to, there's all the time in the world to do it.

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I've read somewhere in this forum that Bioxx doesn't want NPC at all.

TFC is aimed to SMP, so there is no need for NPC.

His mod, his choice.

Even if we would love to interact with NPC, we have to be prepared to keep that in dream ;)

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He's said no NPC's UNLESS a valid reason for them is brought, so far it doesn't seem he's seen one, but given the surprising number of people who play TFC Singleplayer if people keep mentioning it he may decide to somehow include something related.

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He's said no NPC's UNLESS a valid reason for them is brought...

This means completely "No NPCs".

Also because the game would lose it's sandbox part, becoming a complete RPG and it would be less fun for some people.

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Liking you less and less...

Im mentioning it for the simple fact that you are asking for approximately the same exact thing. Its entirely relevant to the conversation, compatibility or not. Thinking about it, it IS the exact thing however not built with TFC in mind.

lets start on why this cant happen:

-The more functions a NPC has the more information is must add to its routine. Better path finding often means more lag.

-Player Exploitation. something this dynamic has flaws. the least being a player can let them develop all the way to red steel and just take it for their own. From what I understand, exploits like this are not welcomed by either dev. Does not matter if the town guard come after you, your decked out if you take it at the right time.

-NPC's can NEVER be stronger then a player and be considered equals at the same time. Especially if you expect this system to work. previous argument: If your decked, what does it matter what they can do?

-Even simple NPC's can ruin it. Imagine if all the NPC did was follow when told and commit to a command. think that would be nice? Well I dont, it would make me feel like they are not alive and ruins any immersion I gained from the game. Obedient servants are not something I want without massively working for it.

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This means completely "No NPCs".

Also because the game would lose it's sandbox part, becoming a complete RPG and it would be less fun for some people.

This isn't true. It just adds a sandbox RTS feel, for thoes who WILL it.

Besides, it's already an RPG. You know, role playing game.

RPG =/= stats, levels, npcs

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-snip due to length-

Nope, nope nope nope nope nope (at least imo). As has already been said, shot down on multiple occasions by both Bioxx and Dunk.

I personally know jack shit about NPC/AICCs, so I won't get into this one. Except that someone could make a TFC patch for millenaire (or MineColony, etc.) to accomplish something similar.

BUT, just because we made nice over in the config thread doesn't mean I won't call you out on double posting. It's bad, mmmkaayyy? Now I will leave this thread to whatever fate it may have, and proceed to melt, because that's what I do when people double post. *melts*

(The edit button really isn't hard to use, please use it. You CAN put more than one quote in the same post, even with the edit button, just cut and paste it from the new reply box into the edit box. Using the edit button saves space and allows for more posts from different people on one page, it helps us not end up with threads with an insane amount of pages. K thanks, bye.)

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This isn't true. It just adds a sandbox RTS feel, for thoes who WILL it.

Besides, it's already an RPG. You know, role playing game.

RPG =/= stats, levels, npcs

Yeah, if you search so deep you will find everytime something RPG. Also the creepers are RPG. But The NPC's (read ECC's post^) would add the commerce. And if they wouldn't, why do you want them? I find commerce a too easy way to survive in TFC. Because it would create infinite resources, like "Buy dirt for ... coins" While you have coins, you can have dirt- It' doesn't matter if dirt is a poor block, because it would be still an endless source of blocks.
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@ Explosionguy

I wasnt sayin you were being volatile. I was refering to Buc... and whoever else is always quick to shoot others down without explaining or adding links... like angry little bombs. ;)

Everyone else here was at least nice enough to explain themselves even if they dont agree.

@ECC

The reason I didnt mention Millenaire is because it is incompatible with so many mods i knew it would never run with TFC. Rather, Custom NPCs and Citizens2 are fully customizable down to scripting and i know the npcs from Custom NPC works with tfc... though some of the items dont.

Honestly i dont think tfc needs npcs simply for the fact that there are other plugins and mods that can accomodate already.

@Achartran

" BUT, just because we made nice over in the config thread doesn't mean I won't call you out on double posting. It's bad, mmmkaayyy?"

HAahahaha! You kill me dude lol

----

But since Bioxx said "no NPCs unless..." then i guess there is still a valid reason for people to keep posting suggestions on it even if we disagree. If they find that "unless" factor, Bioxx might at least consider it.

If someone else can post a link here from Bioxx putting the squash on this idea, then we can put this pack mule down mercifully. :P/>

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The problem with this and the reason for not having NPC's was so that you can have NPC's do all of the jobs for you. But why not have certain quests like Millienare, or something of the sort, where if you complete "quests" your town progresses and expands etc. There are lots of issues because these things clash together, it is hard to do without having them do jobs.

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The problem with this and the reason for not having NPC's was so that you can have NPC's do all of the jobs for you.

Did you mean, "not having NPC's was so that you can't have NPC's do all of the jobs for you."? Just trying to clarify.

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I am honestly surprised Dunk hasn't shot this thread down yet with the whole "I couldn't even add Dwarves so no NPCs" jig.

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I am honestly surprised Dunk hasn't shot this thread down yet with the whole "I couldn't even add Dwarves so no NPCs" jig.

Because he isn't so musch online these days and the forum isn't a forum without him.
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Because he isn't so musch online these days and the forum isn't a forum without him.

He's been online today, he probably had other things to do over weekend, or was working on TFC. I haven't noticed a significant drop in him being around beyond that, though.

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Did you mean, "not having NPC's was so that you can't have NPC's do all of the jobs for you."? Just trying to clarify.

Whoops, yes that is what I meant to say.
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I've read somewhere in this forum that Bioxx doesn't want NPC at all.

TFC is aimed to SMP, so there is no need for NPC.

His mod, his choice.

Even if we would love to interact with NPC, we have to be prepared to keep that in dream ;)

He said no NPC's unless a valid reason for them is brought.

How about because it seems that around 60-70% of people agree that they should be added, and that 54% of people play SSP and 46% of people play multiplayer. That clearly shows that the majority of people who use the mod play in on SSP. So why not focus on what they BOTH want?

He's said no NPC's UNLESS a valid reason for them is brought, so far it doesn't seem he's seen one, but given the surprising number of people who play TFC Singleplayer if people keep mentioning it he may decide to somehow include something related.

How about the fact that around 60-70% of people agree that they should be added, and that 54% of people play SSP and 46% of people play multiplayer. That clearly shows that the majority of people who use the mod play in on SSP. So why not focus on what they BOTH want? NPC's would only enhance both SSP and SMP. Valid reason?

This means completely "No NPCs".

Also because the game would lose it's sandbox part, becoming a complete RPG and it would be less fun for some people.

Wrong. It wouldn't become a complete RPG, it would just add something fun to the mod. If they didn't like it, they would get used to it and see that it's how the game is going to be, and they will accept it and have fun. They don't HAVE to interact with the NPC's AT ALL.

Liking you less and less...

Im mentioning it for the simple fact that you are asking for approximately the same exact thing. Its entirely relevant to the conversation, compatibility or not. Thinking about it, it IS the exact thing however not built with TFC in mind.

lets start on why this cant happen:

-The more functions a NPC has the more information is must add to its routine. Better path finding often means more lag.

-Player Exploitation. something this dynamic has flaws. the least being a player can let them develop all the way to red steel and just take it for their own. From what I understand, exploits like this are not welcomed by either dev. Does not matter if the town guard come after you, your decked out if you take it at the right time.

-NPC's can NEVER be stronger then a player and be considered equals at the same time. Especially if you expect this system to work. previous argument: If your decked, what does it matter what they can do?

-Even simple NPC's can ruin it. Imagine if all the NPC did was follow when told and commit to a command. think that would be nice? Well I dont, it would make me feel like they are not alive and ruins any immersion I gained from the game. Obedient servants are not something I want without massively working for it.

Frankly, I don't really care whether you "like" me or not. That's beside the point anyway. My idea's and suggestions shouldn't cause you to like, or dislike me, either.

- Not really. That's with hundreds of paths running at once, not just 10 little guys walking around. I have spawned 100 villagers for a single village and had no lag, without optifine, AND an old processor (2.3ghz).

- If something has a flaw, it needs to be fixed. Not that complicated. Even if they did wear armor, they would wear cheap armor at best. You would have to have armor and weapons far stronger than theirs and it would be close to impossible to defeat more than 1, unless you had the best armor in the game, in which case you might be able to defeat 3 before dying.

-NPC's don't need to be stronger, they just need to be AS strong as the player. Some would probably be slightly stronger randomly through different tribes and civilizations (e.g. Aztecs might be a bit stronger than you are but never have plated armor, and Romans would be slightly weaker but almost always have plated armor).

- No they can't. Vanilla Minecraft villagers aren't your slaves either, why would these NPC's be? When did I say anything about them being slaves to your will? They are people who need to survive themselves. They aren't going to EVER be your slaves. At MOST they might give you an expensive servant that would take a SHIT LOAD of work to get in the first place, only at full trust they would allow this, and not very many tribes/civilizations would do do that anyway. Some might even work for you at a hefty price (e.g. if they mined long enough to find a small vein with 20 cassiterite, you would have to pay them the equivalent of 2x and sometimes 3x the amount).

This isn't true. It just adds a sandbox RTS feel, for thoes who WILL it.

Besides, it's already an RPG. You know, role playing game.

RPG =/= stats, levels, npcs

That is so true! Thanks. ;)

Nope, nope nope nope nope nope (at least imo). As has already been said, shot down on multiple occasions by both Bioxx and Dunk.

I personally know jack shit about NPC/AICCs, so I won't get into this one. Except that someone could make a TFC patch for millenaire (or MineColony, etc.) to accomplish something similar.

BUT, just because we made nice over in the config thread doesn't mean I won't call you out on double posting. It's bad, mmmkaayyy? Now I will leave this thread to whatever fate it may have, and proceed to melt, because that's what I do when people double post. *melts*

(The edit button really isn't hard to use, please use it. You CAN put more than one quote in the same post, even with the edit button, just cut and paste it from the new reply box into the edit box. Using the edit button saves space and allows for more posts from different people on one page, it helps us not end up with threads with an insane amount of pages. K thanks, bye.)

Mod compatibility will probably be dropped, and this mod isn't guaranteed to get popular enough for those mods to be converted even if mod compatibility isn't dropped.

I never "double posted." Have you thought, maybe I want another post so it is separate from the first? I edit my posts all of the time. It's not like I just don't use it, man.

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Yeah, if you search so deep you will find everytime something RPG. Also the creepers are RPG. But The NPC's (read ECC's post^) would add the commerce. And if they wouldn't, why do you want them? I find commerce a too easy way to survive in TFC. Because it would create infinite resources, like "Buy dirt for ... coins" While you have coins, you can have dirt- It' doesn't matter if dirt is a poor block, because it would be still an endless source of blocks.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with commerce. In-fact, Bioxx is adding an economic system in the mod very soon. You don't have to add dirt as something they would buy, EVER. That would be stupid anyway. Dirt is so easy to get it's worthless. Why would they give you money for it?

@ Explosionguy

I wasnt sayin you were being volatile. I was refering to Buc... and whoever else is always quick to shoot others down without explaining or adding links... like angry little bombs. ;)

Everyone else here was at least nice enough to explain themselves even if they dont agree.

I see, some people like ECC are being unnecessarily rude. Stating that he is "liking me less and less."

@ECC

The reason I didnt mention Millenaire is because it is incompatible with so many mods i knew it would never run with TFC. Rather, Custom NPCs and Citizens2 are fully customizable down to scripting and i know the npcs from Custom NPC works with tfc... though some of the items dont.

Honestly i dont think tfc needs npcs simply for the fact that there are other plugins and mods that can accomodate already.

I'm not sure if Custom NPCs and Citizens2 are actually compatible, but even if they were, it's not like they are much like my idea's anyway.

But since Bioxx said "no NPCs unless..." then i guess there is still a valid reason for people to keep posting suggestions on it even if we disagree. If they find that "unless" factor, Bioxx might at least consider it.

If someone else can post a link here from Bioxx putting the squash on this idea, then we can put this pack mule down mercifully. :P/>

Exactly. People keep saying that Bioxx said "No NPC's" but don't give any proof of this at all. It's stupid, really.

The problem with this and the reason for not having NPC's was so that you can have NPC's do all of the jobs for you. But why not have certain quests like Millienare, or something of the sort, where if you complete "quests" your town progresses and expands etc. There are lots of issues because these things clash together, it is hard to do without having them do jobs.

They will never do all your jobs for you. Even the jobs you might be able to pay them to do through a lot of hard work, it would be very expensive.

I am honestly surprised Dunk hasn't shot this thread down yet with the whole "I couldn't even add Dwarves so no NPCs" jig.

That would be really rude. Admins like that are ignorant, and mean. Neither Bioxx nor Dunk has shown me to be that way.

@archatran

EDIT: No I could not put all of this into one post. Stop telling me how easy it is to use the edit button. I already know, and I'm not going to keep wasting my time with reading posts that tell me anything about it.

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How about the fact that around 60-70% of people agree that they should be added

Sorry to interrupt, but where exactly did you got this percentages from?

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