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Bioxx

Discussion thread for the Combat Revamp

107 posts in this topic

This thread is for discussing the combat revamp. Please keep all discussion confined to this thread.

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aside from actually revamping the SYSTEM, will you revamp WEAPONRY as well? i cannot fathom the amount of people that want crossbows (more power (not damage, range), less skill, compared to bows) lances, stabbing swords, etc?

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I'm ambivalent at this point. I don't do a lot of fighting when I play, and especially not any PvP whatsoever. It just doesn't suit my style. So the changes will probably not affect me much.

I'm not sure what advantages are that you hope to unlock with a location-based hit system, though. Why not simply do a percentage based damage reduction from armor? Every armor piece worn would have its own value, identical across all pieces from that tier and/or type. You could even have different values for individual damage types. Then do a weighted average of the damage reduction values of all four body regions to get an overall reduction for each individual damage type.

Let's make up an arbitrary example:

- the Unobtanium Alloy armor set gives 70% vs. piercing, 60% vs. slashing, and 90% vs. crushing on each piece.

- the Sexy Chainmail Underwear set gives 100% vs. piercing, 50% vs. slashing, and 0% vs. crushing on each piece.

- you decide to wear your Unobtanium Alloy chestplate and your Sexy Chainmail panties today, with no boots and no headpiece.

- for the weighted average calculation, we'll use the 60% chest / 20% legs / 10% feet / 10% head spread thrown around in the announcement.

That means the final armor values will be:

Piercing: (0.6 * 0.7) + (0.2 * 1.0) + (0.1 * 0.0) + (0.1 * 0.0) = 0.62

Slashing: (0.6 * 0.6) + (0.2 * 0.5) + (0.1 * 0.0) + (0.1 * 0.0) = 0.46

Crushing: (0.6 * 0.9) + (0.2 * 0.0) + (0.1 * 0.0) + (0.1 * 0.0) = 0.54

For a total protection of 62% piercing, 46% slashing and 54% crushing. There's no need to randomize hit locations like this. Unless of course you aim to do something else, besides circumventing vanilla Minecraft's armor calculation...

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I'm ambivalent at this point. I don't do a lot of fighting when I play, and especially not any PvP whatsoever. It just doesn't suit my style. So the changes will probably not affect me much.

I'm not sure what advantages are that you hope to unlock with a location-based hit system, though. Why not simply do a percentage based damage reduction from armor? Every armor piece worn would have its own value, identical across all pieces from that tier and/or type. You could even have different values for individual damage types. Then do a weighted average of the damage reduction values of all four body regions to get an overall reduction for each individual damage type.

Let's make up an arbitrary example:

- the Unobtanium Alloy armor set gives 70% vs. piercing, 60% vs. slashing, and 90% vs. crushing on each piece.

- the Sexy Chainmail Underwear set gives 100% vs. piercing, 50% vs. slashing, and 0% vs. crushing on each piece.

- you decide to wear your Unobtanium Alloy chestplate and your Sexy Chainmail panties today, with no boots and no headpiece.

- for the weighted average calculation, we'll use the 60% chest / 20% legs / 10% feet / 10% head spread thrown around in the announcement.

That means the final armor values will be:

Piercing: (0.6 * 0.7) + (0.2 * 1.0) + (0.1 * 0.0) + (0.1 * 0.0) = 0.62

Slashing: (0.6 * 0.6) + (0.2 * 0.5) + (0.1 * 0.0) + (0.1 * 0.0) = 0.46

Crushing: (0.6 * 0.9) + (0.2 * 0.0) + (0.1 * 0.0) + (0.1 * 0.0) = 0.54

For a total protection of 62% piercing, 46% slashing and 54% crushing. There's no need to randomize hit locations like this. Unless of course you aim to do something else, besides circumventing vanilla Minecraft's armor calculation...

And taking that into account, if you DO decide to go into the hit location area of combat, it would be important to note the on/off switch (the head) is the one area most people try to protect, either instinctively or through combat awareness.

It should also be noted that this is the ONE place to go for in combat, from full contact training to no-holds-barred street fighting.

So my question would be how would one approach the percentage chance of hitting a certain area given the "Intelligence" of the opponent being fought. (i.e.: Male Koalas go after each other's genitals when they fight, as opposed to an MMA combatant who will go for the head every time an opportunity is offered.) But let me point out that this is in the MMA fights (rules) and that surprisingly enough, and understandable enough, the nads are the number one spot to go for when fighting. It may seem dirty, but if it was good enough for Bruce Lee (Tao of Jeet Kun Do), then by golly maybe we should look into crafting Red Steel Jimmy Hats!!!

...

...

I have been witness to the "percentile die" rolling out some insane low numbers on a streak, and have also seen some video games dole out some seemingly unfair "random" outcomes time after time.

While the hit location would be a fun aspect to combat were this Skyrim or Call of Duty, I am thinking that given the limited threshold of the MC combat system, unless debuffs are going to be the outcome of a "hit location" score (i.e: slow movement when taking a shot to the leg, dazed when struck in the head, high pitched voice when cracked in the man-berries...), Omicrons figures would be the best way to go.

This in fact is the system I am using in my rpg at the moment and it has worked for the past decade in it... and swimmingly well.

Now that out of the way, and since there are piercing, slashing, and crushing weapons in-game (at least on other players), will we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be seeing other creatures enter the much lacking creature variety picture? And if so, will they the be able to dole out varying damage types such as crushing, piercing, and slashing?

The Aurox that Bludgeons as it stomps and Pierces as it gores, or the jungle gorilla that bludgeons you to death, and yes of course the skelly that pierces you with its bow of skewering.... these varying damage types would add a whole new facet of importance to different armor types and their importance. If skeletons are only found underground, and you are going to explore a cave system, one type of armor might be favored over another, etc..etc...etc..

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In real life fighting is short and sweet, If 2 people have swords and no armore, the battle is likely going to last a few seconds, (Unlike in the movies where they have 10 minute fights -_-)

Do you plan on removing the hit animation for when being hit by swords ect... ? It does stand as a way to know your taking damage, but a red glow on the screen would do just as well. instead you could have a sort of slide back effect, or even a camra jaunt.

Id split the combat into 3 parts, Piercing (Arrows), Blunt (Mace, Or shovel if you really want xD), and Sharp (Swords). And have classes of armor Plate, Mail, Leather etc... Each class has its own weak points, eg; Leather makes little difference to a well swung sword, but can block a fair deal of damage from a blunt attacks from a mace, while arrows will likely go straight through if shot well and with power, a glancing blow would be deflected however.

Mail is not good against arrows, but blunt attacks can be painful when in heavy metal rings. Plate is good all round, blunt is generally the simplest weak point, but you can just be a good swordsman or archer - Explained next.

Every armor would have specific "Uncovered" points, like a male helmet will have the neck covered, but the face is vulnerable to sword and arrows. Plated mail has gaps in the shoulders. A helmet without good neck protection can see the player dismembered with a sharp swing of a good sword.

This way of combat means that rather than chance luck, combat is based on skill, you can see why I asked if you are going to remove the kinda jump thing the character does when taking damage, makes combat unrealistic and effectively breaks the system. Instead, a heavy hit to the chest with a mace or even a sword, would push you back, kinda like sliding. And a hit to the side of the head with a mace, or even a sword if your opponenet has a lucky shot, can make your camera jump suddenly as you stagger.

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Related to the post in general, it's becoming fairly obvious that many of the limitations and impasses stem from Minecraft itself. Perhaps, as much as I hat to say it, Minecraft isn't the ideal engine for TFC to ultimately move forward with, especially with it's rate of update. Possibly using something like ARMA, as DayZ did or may be the unity engine could end up being less trouble or more powerful in the long run? Perhaps not the best place to post this but the combat system would then be much better coded to begin with and possibly not require so much re-engineering.

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Yeah... you might want to think a bit longer about that suggestion, Mephistos_chan... ;)

How do you suggest implementing picking a dirt block up and placing it somewhere else in ARMA? Just because the engine does one out of 20 core features better doesn't mean it's a good choice, because it might not be able to do 8-10 other core features at all.

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~ CHAIN MESH ~

Butted Chain Mesh vs. Arrows:

Riveted Chain Mesh vs. Sword Point:

Improvised Weapons vs. Chain Mesh... I think butted...

~ PLATE ARMOR ~

Plate Armor vs. Arrows:

Plate Armor vs. Swords:

~ LEATHER and CLOTH armor ~

Well.... not much to be said here except for their effectiveness against the elements, and in leather's corner, its effectiveness against weapons designed with a drawing, edged surface as opposed to piercing...

So what should set armors apart from each other aside from protective nature? SPEED!

Heavier armor will slow you down making it difficult to run from, or chase down your opponent. This will make cloth and leather desireable depending on a players flavor of gaming.

Personally, I would rather wear leather for quickness over Plate mail for toe-to toe defense. Hit em from a distance I always say...

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ya armor should not only affect how much protection you have but also the speed at wich you move.

so perhaps have classes of light med and heavy armor? light being chain and leather med being something like scail male and reinforced leather armor like lether with metal studs/bands on it to procect more from weppons. the heavy armor would of course be the plate armor and would reduce speed a lot more.

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You should add slots for shield, gloves/gauntlets, and maybe rings/necklaces (to use the gems, maybe just for showof or enchanting).

Maybe the shield slot instead could have a second weapon (or disabled with 2hand weapons).

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As for Skills factoring into combat: There is the believability aspect and the game aspect to be considered.

Skills that depend only on grinding is the main reason I personally am disgusted with most MMORPGs. I find nothing rewarding about killing 2000 rats for the next level, be it character or "Hunting"-skill. Especially if the only input the game demands from me is "click enemy, wait, rinse, repeat."

That said, the Smithing system for instance provides a good example for a more "skill-based" Skill system. As it is now the closer I get to the marker, the better the worked item. It would be easy to also increase the amount of bonus to one's skill based on how good the item had been completed. That would allow experienced _players_ to level up quicker.

How would that translate to the combat however? Established long time players already have the advantage: They have the better armor, the better swords and maces. How can one - without Hitlocations -  factor the player skill into the character skill progression?

One idea is to 'penalize' button-mashing and the odd bunny-jumping that Minecraft combat tends to end up as. With similar mechanics of the bowdraw, charging up swings and blocks might become a viable alternative to just hitting Player A repeatedly. If the only hit locations are also 'front' and 'back' blocking only becomes viable if one is not facing two opponents, as one could circle around.

That said, skills should increase the fastest not for each hit, but for well placed, charged up hits. Likewise, for blocks. (What the benefits of a charged up block is might be fun to determine: Perhaps a moment of unable to attack again for the blocked player/mob?)

Additionally, charged up shots should have a higher percentage to penetrate and/or negate armor (or perhaps strike the least protected hit location(s)?) Basically it are stronger, well placed blows instead of randomly plinking away at armor.

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So what should set armors apart from each other aside from protective nature? SPEED!

To make this more interesting Have Plate slightly slower then normal, Mail normal, and no armore/leather slightly faster, Walking and running in MC is already slow enough :P

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Additionally, charged up shots should have a higher percentage to penetrate and/or negate armor (or perhaps strike the least protected hit location(s)?) Basically it are stronger, well placed blows instead of randomly plinking away at armor.

Typically, a good archer can volley fully powered arrows very fast, whereas crossbows would be for less skilled ranged troops for power and accuracy without having to be trained in archery for most of their life. With the drawback of having to wind the thing up every shot.

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You should add slots for shield, gloves/gauntlets, and maybe rings/necklaces (to use the gems, maybe just for showof or enchanting).

Maybe the shield slot instead could have a second weapon (or disabled with 2hand weapons).

Sounds like a good idea, but possibly needs more of a pratical use then just adding extra defence, Like, if you get hit in the hands without gloves on, there's a chance (If your a less experienced swords fighter) that you drop your sword, Although I would then suggest the sword is bound to the player and the slot is unfillable with anything but that sword for the next 10 seconds or something, as in a real sword fight you would be able to pick the sword backup if you were fast.

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The problem with speed modifiers is the usual scenario:

Player A is in plate armor and alone. Slow, lumbering.

Player B is in leather, with a bow.

What will happen now is that Player B will now continually run away from A, shoot an arrow, and rinse and repeat. Since A cannot run as fast as B, there won't be a way from him to catch him with a melee weapon no matter what he does. So now he has the options of switching out armor mid-combat, changing to a bow himself, or die.

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also, Do you plan to add magic Bioxx? And I mean done properly, not that basic fireball, shock ect... mechanic, properly balanced and thought threw.

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The problem with speed modifiers is the usual scenario:

Player A is in plate armor and alone. Slow, lumbering.

Player B is in leather, with a bow.

What will happen now is that Player B will now continually run away from A, shoot an arrow, and rinse and repeat. Since A cannot run as fast as B, there won't be a way from him to catch him with a melee weapon no matter what he does. So now he has the options of switching out armor mid-combat, changing to a bow himself, or die.

Some kind of in-battle adrenalin rush would be more realistic, Agreed.

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also, Do you plan to add magic Bioxx? And I mean done properly, not that basic fireball, shock ect... mechanic, properly balanced and thought threw.

probably not.
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The problem with speed modifiers is the usual scenario:

Player A is in plate armor and alone. Slow, lumbering.

Player B is in leather, with a bow.

What will happen now is that Player B will now continually run away from A, shoot an arrow, and rinse and repeat. Since A cannot run as fast as B, there won't be a way from him to catch him with a melee weapon no matter what he does. So now he has the options of switching out armor mid-combat, changing to a bow himself, or die.

Well, with an updated combat system, you might expect arrows of differing tiers. A stone arrow head will be practically useless against plate armour. At that point, having iron or perhaps bronze arrows greatly limits the arrows you can carry. You can't make them with resources collected in the wilderness and metal is usually in short supply, so the archer will eventually run out of arrows. Perhaps aiming should be more difficult than it currently is?
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Instead of making the weapon's just have a singular weapon class, why not make the weapons have different properties which influence these classes? A longsword probably has the weight to cause minor crushing damage, and a dagger has piercing and slashing traits, arrows could be used in close range as a slashing/piercing device, although being too light and ending up being weaker than a letter-opener, and certain maces can be for piecing/slashing and smashing.

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probably not.

Shame, I was looking at Ars Magica a few days ago and the way you could build spells from basic charm kinda things from old/simple spells, Seemed like a really neat concept that could be improved upon and made into a really good sort of "Study, Learn, Discover" kind of spell deal, which would mean people would have to work just as hard working on magic as getting say Red Alloy. If they want to be good at it that is.

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Well, with an updated combat system, you might expect arrows of differing tiers. A stone arrow head will be practically useless against plate armour. At that point, having iron or perhaps bronze arrows greatly limits the arrows you can carry. You can't make them with resources collected in the wilderness and metal is usually in short supply, so the archer will eventually run out of arrows. Perhaps aiming should be more difficult than it currently is?

Rather then making them difficult to obtain, you could make them stack in smaller stacks, Meaning if you where defending, you would have allot, as an attacker, you might have supply carts, but they could be taken by scouts sent out from keep (I primarily play Faction servers lol)

EDIT:

Also, Having done some archery IRL, Making it more difficult would be realistic, but more difficult in a realistic way wouldn't be easy. The main reason you miss is by not consistently pulling the string back far enough/at the right angle. You could make it so the more you use one the better you get?

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Instead of making the weapon's just have a singular weapon class, why not make the weapons have different properties which influence these classes? A longsword probably has the weight to cause minor crushing damage, and a dagger has piercing and slashing traits, arrows could be used in close range as a slashing/piercing device, although being too light and ending up being weaker than a letter-opener, and certain maces can be for piecing/slashing and smashing.

Daggers = x5 damage in the back would be cool.

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Well, with an updated combat system, you might expect arrows of differing tiers. A stone arrow head will be practically useless against plate armour. At that point, having iron or perhaps bronze arrows greatly limits the arrows you can carry. You can't make them with resources collected in the wilderness and metal is usually in short supply, so the archer will eventually run out of arrows. Perhaps aiming should be more difficult than it currently is?

arrows in general are quite useless versis plate :/ thats why the crosbow was made to begin with wasnt it? to shoot down the damn armored knights/tanks of the medival battle field

perhaps you could add cones of fire? so that the more you draw back the bow the more accurate it would be?.

crosbows could be way more powerfull but they have a fixed cone of fire and reload 2-3 times slower then a full drawn bow would as well as you cant do it on the move and would stand compleatly unarmed if trying to reload a crosbow. :D you miss with one and you cant fire again unlike a bow

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arrows in general are quite useless versis plate :/ thats why the crosbow was made to begin with wasnt it? to shoot down the damn armored knights/tanks of the medival battle field

Actually no, crossbows were made at a time where there were very few plate wearing warriors left, almost everyone was wearing mail and leather, they were created for basic peasants with no strength or skill with bows.

EDIT:Unless you mean the Asian crossbows...

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