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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
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Bioxx

Discussion thread for the Combat Revamp

107 posts in this topic

It would just mean you have to know the timing when to let go so you still hit him and he can't poke you on time. In other words, Skills! hueaheaheuhe

I only put that as a countermeasure in case the charges are overpowered over the small pokes. Not even sure if it's necessary.

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My question is this: how difficult would it be to actually detect which part of the body has been hit? You won't be able to use Minecraft's built-in hit detection, but if you were to hijack the mechanism and apply it to each prism that makes up the player's body, it doesn't seem too impossible...

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I had to make an account just for this.

It seems like you've got a lot of good ideas already for the new combat overhaul, but the one that I have the largest gripes about is your damage idea.

If one were to simply apply the coefficient across the body, wouldn't that entirely negate the reason someone would put armor on their head instead of their legs or so on? It seems a bit silly to make a helmet work for the rest of your naked body. I'd suggest using your armor system coupled with a detection system so that the helmet, which has say 50% slash, 50% blunt, 50% pierce resistance only kicks in when you're smacked in the head as opposed to your naked torso. It just makes more sense.

Moving on from there, Magic could be a terrible idea, or a great idea depending on how it's implemented. As you've said, it would be nice to NOT have knowledge based skills, and instead have them created by the person by simply gathering ingredients and throwing them together to see what comes out of it. Much like what one encounters playing Skyrim and using the alchemy system.

An idea would be some sort of material, maybe redstone, to be mixed with something along the lines of sheets of paper, or pendants, gloves, etc, to allow for certain spells. Such as throwing redstone in X pattern + 3 sheets of paper/a book to get a spell tome for, say, fire. You can use this to light campfires, forges, and so forth by equipping the book and right clicking, which shoots out flame.

Just my two cents.

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Sup dudes! I've read through the topic and a lot of interest is in the type of blows vs the type of armor. However, my $0.02 will concern how player actions in combat might effect the outcome. As some folks have termed it, "spam clicking" and repeatedly smacking the mouse buttons doesn't do TFC justice!

.. I explain things better in pictures than I do in words so most of my explanation with be in png format, but there are some thing that images wouldn't emphasize.

For one thing, the hurt animation and knockback have to go, and I mean G-O out the D-O', go. Besides them being sucky in general, their removal is kind of necessary if my suggestion is to be considered. What I'm suggesting is combat that has everything to do with player position relative to each other and whatever else they could possibly attack in melee:

Posted Image

As well as this basic system, let's not forget critical hits via sprinting or jumping.

I also suggest a stun value. Simply put, attacking successfully prevents one's opponent from starting a new swing back, and the time penalty could be determined by the strength of the hit. This can also be applied with a particularly successful block (parry?). If someone's block is so successful that (after calculating the total damage dealt), the attacker dealt negative damage, then he should feel it and his target should get a handout.

In lieu of vanilla knockback, I propose a less dramatic version. Particularly strong hits (perhaps, if they happen, only critical hits) should cause the target to shift backwards- but that's just it: a shift (more or less a stumble), and a small one at that. Getting hit front-on with a sword does not launch you three meters out and one meter up... Unless you're already in the air.

Addendum: On initial review this system works well for ranged weapons as well!

... That's... the gist of my idea. If I'm forgetting anything then it will have to be remembered after I wake up tomorrow. Anyhoo I hope to read some feedback at some point. Peace!

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I like what you've done, Avidavi That makes a whole lot of sense, and the visuals really helped drive it home. It's both simple and eloquent. However, I would suggest a slight change to the first part about ranges. With a melee weapon, there comes a point where you get too close, and it affects your ability to produce a full-powered swing/stab. So each weapon type should actually have a window wherein it is most effective, and getting closer or further both affect the damage dealt.

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My potential concern with allowing players control over where they would hit the other player via jump etc is that it leads to all players simply jumping around like jackasses trying to get above the other guy and doesn't do anything to actually improve combat. Also, lets say that 70% of combat occurs on the same level between two players. That means chest armor is the only thing that really matters. Sure you may get unlucky and by hit elsewhere but its a lot less expensive to lose only a chest plate than it is to lose a full set of armor.

Avi, I do like the range concept and potentially the angle concept. Although, I do worry that it will lead to circle-jerk fights where everyone is running in circles. I'm not entirely sure that it provides anymore of a coherent combat experience as it simply trades the relative blandness of MC's combat for the blandness of of running in circles trying to get the best angle. That said, I can see the merit of at least having something to do other than spam clicking, so angles aren't off the table.

Any sort of revamping to combat itself will require a fair bit of coding to implement. In order for any plan for something like that to be implemented, you need to take a look at what it would take to implement vs what kind of difference that you would actually, not theoretically, see in game. Try to figure out how players will exploit your system and see if it is still worth it.

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Heh, yeah, the height thing has some definite flaws to it, but it does allow someone to take advantage of a weaker point in someone's defense if they're missing some pieces or using a mismatched set. For instance, if someone only has a steel chestplate (and no or less-valuable armor elsewhere) then it's advantageous to sneak or jump to hit his legs or head, respectively. Jumping up and down would allow for strikes to the head, but it isn't enough of a plus to do so constantly in battle unless the head is actually a weakpoint! :D

Heck, removing the auto-critical hit when jumping would fix that right there :).

As for the circling, I saw that as a plus: whomever can outmaneuver his opponent gets the advantage, and if you can keep up then all the better for you. You can take a chance and try to get behind someone who's trying to get behind you, or you can make sure to always face them to get a better block in. Of course.. this is all in my head. It could very well go South and become that bland circlefest when implemented ^^.

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First of all, I hope I didn't come off as overbearing, or as a downer. Sometimes I can be rude or act like I'm just being dismissive of others' ideas, and I don't want anyone to have that impression.

The very first thing that I do when someone suggests something, is try to break it in as many ways as possible. There is nothing more disappointing than spending days coding something, just to realize that it was always fated to be a bad idea from the start. I find it harder and harder to get myself to code anything anymore, so before I sit down to code I have to know that I'm not wasting my time.

Onto the issue at hand. The more that I think about it, the more that I don't want to touch vanilla combat too much beyond the armor stat and skill changes. As much as we all love the idea of super realistic combat, it's important to remember that this is still Minecraft. Polls that we have done in the past show that the majority of players tend to play in small groups cooperatively instead of competitively. However the competitive group tends to be the loudest. I just don't think that spending the time required to implement and balance combat that is designed for the small section of the player base that enjoys pvp is the right course of action to take. Especially when you take into account the amount of time that I actually find myself coding these days.

That's not to say that I don't care about pvp at all, however my focus remains more on pve.

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I agree that PvE should be the primary focus. Not that I think PvP is unimportant, or that no one plays it, but as you (Bioxx) stated, PvE accounts for the majority of players and gameplay elements. One additional problem with locational armor hits I foresee has to do with skeletons. Skeletons shoot you in the head with laser-accuracy, so if you are having trouble with skeletons? Just get a fancy helmet! Problem solved.

About the only thing I might suggest when it comes to combat on the player side is more equipment slots. How about one for each hand, allowing for dual wielding or two-handed weapons? As a programmer and modder myself, I understand this is ungodly difficult, but it certainly would make combat feel more personalized. A shield in the off hand would make it so the player could more reliably block attacks, while maybe a polearm has longer reach and slower speed. Dual wielding swords might alternate between the two weapons for damage purposes, and give a speed increase/adjustment based on the individual weapon speeds.

Further (and only partly related), What about the upcoming change involving body temperature and armor? Perhaps there could be a set of slots for an under-layer of armor that one could craft from cloth and wool? Alternatively, add some kind of option to combine armor with sheepskin/leather/wool to give it slightly more defense and eliminate any possible temperature penalties from wearing metals in extreme weather conditions. Anywho, I believe I am getitng off topic. Coming back to the issue at hand...

I think rather than reworking the fundamental mechanics, focus more on mobs with creative combat mechanics. Killing Spiders, Zombies, skeletons, creepers, and endermen does get mildly boring these days, what about a monster which is quicker, or one that flies? Maybe a variation on silverfish, making mining or caving more dangerous, or a flying mob which swoops down for players. Even better would be environmental mobs like a mummy in the desert or a scorpion. The potential with mobs to make PvE more interesting are endless.

As a final note, I completely understand getting burnt out on coding, because as someone once said, "You never finish a program; you just stop coding one day." I know firsthand just how burnt out on coding one can get working on the same project for a long time.

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My potential concern with allowing players control over where they would hit the other player via jump etc is that it leads to all players simply jumping around like jackasses trying to get above the other guy and doesn't do anything to actually improve combat.

Avi, I do like the range concept and potentially the angle concept. Although, I do worry that it will lead to circle-jerk fights where everyone is running in circles. I'm not entirely sure that it provides anymore of a coherent combat experience as it simply trades the relative blandness of MC's combat for the blandness of of running in circles trying to get the best angle.

I think the blandness you're trying to avoid comes from too few dominant strategies. If there's exactly one way to fight that's obviously superior to all others, that's bland (in the same way that diamond is always superior in vanilla, leading to groups of PvPers who all look alike). That means the key is a variety of viable strategies, which is accomplished with careful balancing of a good and simple base system.

Balancing involves questions like, can I get a second hit in with a fast weapon before the enemy has time to block? Which depends on, is my swing delay 0.5 seconds or 0.6 seconds?

As a hobby game programmer, I believe the only reliable way to find a fun base system is testing out ideas by prototyping them. This can get expensive if you're focusing on other stuff, so I sympathize with your reluctance to change combat too much, and I think you have the right approach by being skeptical.

My suggestion is to invite modders to prototype demo versions of some of these combat ideas, so we can all play around with them and see what would work best. Keeping in mind that the work is likely to be scrapped, of course.

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First of all, I hope I didn't come off as overbearing, or as a downer. Sometimes I can be rude or act like I'm just being dismissive of others' ideas, and I don't want anyone to have that impression.

The very first thing that I do when someone suggests something, is try to break it in as many ways as possible. There is nothing more disappointing than spending days coding something, just to realize that it was always fated to be a bad idea from the start. I find it harder and harder to get myself to code anything anymore, so before I sit down to code I have to know that I'm not wasting my time.

Onto the issue at hand. The more that I think about it, the more that I don't want to touch vanilla combat too much beyond the armor stat and skill changes. As much as we all love the idea of super realistic combat, it's important to remember that this is still Minecraft. Polls that we have done in the past show that the majority of players tend to play in small groups cooperatively instead of competitively. However the competitive group tends to be the loudest. I just don't think that spending the time required to implement and balance combat that is designed for the small section of the player base that enjoys pvp is the right course of action to take. Especially when you take into account the amount of time that I actually find myself coding these days.

That's not to say that I don't care about pvp at all, however my focus remains more on pve.

I personally feel that there should be focus on multiple aspects of the game... Having a single, long chain of events that must be completed the same way each time you play a game gets old... no matter how much you improve said chain of events.

The combat system should be revamped in my opinion, but there should be a few types of fighting styles other than just spam clicking, and I can think of a few off the top of my head that should work with a bit of alteration. Temporary "enchantments" would be an interesting feature to add if it can be coded in some way. For example, perhaps you could apply a poison effect to a weapon that would last for a short time period or wear off when you attacked an entity(preferred). The attacked entity would be then effected by a severe status effect, it wouldn't have to deal damage, rendering an entity temporarily blinded and unable to escape would be extremely useful (perhaps reuse of vanilla slowness, blindness, and nausea effects would be in order) , especially in a pvp situation (there would need to be a craft-able countermeasure to prevent this from getting too far out of hand) or if far stronger pve entitys are to be added . The temporary enchantment would need to be unable to be applied in combat or perhaps without some proper preparation. The ability to sharpen some types of weapons for a moderate increase in damage with some prior preparation would also be a useful feature.

Also, coating an arrow in flammable material, setting it on fire, and then shooting at a block would light the block it hits on fire. This would be an interesting feature as it could allow for a sort of crude area of effect type mechanic that would deal damage to a number of mobs at once if they are in a small enough area (or in large enough groups in the case of new mobs) for you to hit more than one, or if they can be moved to a specific spot by some means. Perhaps fire damage would continue to ignore armor, . Of course these arrows would not be best for every scenario, for example, best not to shoot flaming projectiles near your wooden house or the adjacent forest. A close range version of this could be some type of modified torch, or perhaps just modify the fire starter to act as a flint and steel with all of 1,2, or even 3 uses uses that takes up an inventory slot. This would be effectively a cheap replacement for the flint and steel, and could be used to light the arrows?

And lastly, if shields are to be added, they should be added primarily as a means to counteract ranged opponents without use of ranged weapons. The blocking function with a few tweaks should work well enough for melee blocking. If a shield is to be a way to counteract ranged mobs/players you should need to select it. This would make them quite a bit harder to use, but much easier to code. Also, this would improve the combat mechanic somewhat as you would need to draw out your shield and block with it in order to avoid being shot at, rather than alternating between left clicking and right clicking with the shield equipped in the extra slot that the modders will need to make in the first place. "using" the shield would protect you from most ranged damage coming from the direction your character is facing, but would slow down your movement speed significantly and leave you open to attack from the other direction, or perhaps the shield would just not protect you from other non-arrow forms of damage.

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...Also, coating an arrow in flammable material, setting it on fire, and then shooting at a block would light the block it hits on fire...

Flaming arrows exist almost exclusively in movies. Realistically, an arrow lit on fire would be put out almost immediately because of the speed that arrows travel through the air. Those arrows with rags wrapped around them that you see in the movies aren't at all aerodynamic and in reality couldn't fly more than a couple of feet, not to mention that wood is usually not flammable enough to immediately catch fire from such a small flame. Kind of a cool thought, though.

...maybe something analogous to molotov cocktails or something might be viable...

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Flaming arrows exist almost exclusively in movies. Realistically, an arrow lit on fire would be put out almost immediately because of the speed that arrows travel through the air. Those arrows with rags wrapped around them that you see in the movies aren't at all aerodynamic and in reality couldn't fly more than a couple of feet, not to mention that wood is usually not flammable enough to immediately catch fire from such a small flame. Kind of a cool thought, though.

...maybe something analogous to molotov cocktails or something might be viable...

You say that, but mongol forces used flaming arrows in sieges of walled in towns. Arrow wrapped in rags is indeed travels not as far as normal, but it's still more than enough to bypass a wall and light on fire hay-like roofs of nearby buildings. Not to mention that oils were used to soak wood to make it water-resistant, and some of those oils are flammable.

In fact, flaming arrow travels about as much as normal arrow in minecraft now - bows in minecraft is not particularly ranged weapon.

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You say that, but mongol forces used flaming arrows in sieges of walled in towns. Arrow wrapped in rags is indeed travels not as far as normal, but it's still more than enough to bypass a wall and light on fire hay-like roofs of nearby buildings. Not to mention that oils were used to soak wood to make it water-resistant, and some of those oils are flammable.

In fact, flaming arrow travels about as much as normal arrow in minecraft now - bows in minecraft is not particularly ranged weapon.

I never thought much about differences in trajectory for different types of ranged weapons or arrows, but now that you mention it, there should be a range modifier that would make it worth your while to buy a better bow, or to invest in better arrows. If metal arrows, or bows that could shoot metal arrows simply do more damage than stone arrows, or bows that only shoot stone arrows, then people could in theory just offset this by making some 200 stone arrows for the same effect as a stack of metal ones. If they had the same knock-back effect and range, unless the stone arrow damage was so nerfed as to be near-useless, then there would be no need to get a better ranged item as you could effectively spam stone arrows with no real cost to yourself, and still have the same effect(It would take a much longer time though).If however, there were real differences in the trajectory of said projectiles, then there would be additional motivation to improve your arsenal. You could go about this two ways in my opinion: increase the maximum range of the highest teir bows significantly beyond the range of vanilla bows, severely nerf the range of vanila bows and require high teir bows to shoot anything. Or, my personal favorite, reduce the range of vanila-esqe bows somewhat, but enough that you can still hit things, and increase the range of the strongest bows to about 60% beyond vanilla bows with real differences in damage, and with some chance of retrieving the arrow.

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A few thoughts of mine, if i may.

I understand and approve the idea of TFC combat focusing more on PvE than PvP. Obviously people are fighting against the nature more often than with each other, even on PvP encouraging servers. Therefore adding new interesting mobs, features like boars charging into players etc. should definitely be prioritized, no doubt.

As of the idea of using different arrows - flammable, metal, stone - and different bows, I thought that making arrows work like javelins do right now (make them stack obviously, be subject to current arrow physics still, having various damage depending on arrow type) and having a check running for a bow (just as how using a chisel needs a hammer on the toolbar) would probably save some problems with coding, and add an easy possibility of choosing which arrow you are about to use. Changing the currently used bow on the toolbar would of course alter damage/reload speed/range according to the bow type used. How to make different bows is yet to be decided, as I am no expert, but I assume the vanilla bow would be easiest to make as it is now, and more advanced ones (like composite bows/longbows) requiring some advanced crafting methods. I also like the mentioned before arrow reclaiming idea, which may work like the javelins have a chance to be reclaimed after hit.

I would love to see implemented the removal of the silly push-back-on-being-hit thing currently in place, except for really heavy-impact weapons like hammers, maybe maces, and strong mobs like bears or boars. You do not fly away when hit by an arrow, like previous persons stated.

Crossbows would be a nice addition. They were known in history even in Roman times, with the weapons being used in China as well, not making it such a rare occurence, therefore they can find a place in the TFC technological level. I assume an easy way to code them would be by making them load for a fairly long time compared to bows, with the starting damage of string pull extremely low and fully loaded damage well above any of the bows present. You would have to stand completely still to load them, too. That would prevent their abuse in combat and add some balance. For simplicity's sake, make crossbows and bows use the same ammo.

The light/medium/heavy armor speed penalty is absolutely essential, so that running around in heavy plate is not a daily habit of a player once you craft one, but instead you use it when you have to. It is tiring to wear heavy armor, and I do not recall knights sleeping, eating and socializing with heavy armor on in everyday life just because they owned a set of that, so the player shouldn't wear it either while farming or fishing because of the movement speed penalty, and possibly a hunger increase. You want to stay quick while doing mundane tasks, for efficiency's sake, so you could trade off some protection for speed, choosing medium or light armor over that heavy plate you've made.

Another idea connecting to the mentioned above is an armor stand item, allowing you to store your armors when not in use. With no possibility of putting one in a chest simply as it is too large to fit, that would be the best option, however I do understand that it does require much coding. At this moment that is not such a big problem, as you always tend to wear your highest tier armor available, but with bonuses and penalties of armor in place that will be more important to store what you are not using right now.

And my last thought, weapons should be indeed categorized into blunt/slashed/pierced damage. Heavy mail can be fairly easily surpassed by pierced and blunt weapons (especially crossbow bolts). What I thought would be good is to set maces to have a low, but fixed amount of damage that is ignoring armor (or being lowered by a very slow amount). Slashing and piercing weapons would inflict bleeding debuffs on targets, with the unfortunate victim losing health over time. Piercing wounds cause smaller bleeding, but have a higher armor penentration rate than slashing attacks quite sufficiently being blocked by armor. However, lightly armored targets would suffer more from slashing attacks, with stronger bleeding effects in place. Concussions by being hit in the head with something heavy would also be welcome, however I think that would be quite hard to code.

I hope that my post was comprehensible and helpful, I love this mod and I want it to improve. I know that those ideas may have engine limitations, are hard to code, etc, but I hope something similar may be impemented over time. Good job with everything done so far, devs!

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First of all, I hope I didn't come off as overbearing, or as a downer. Sometimes I can be rude or act like I'm just being dismissive of others' ideas, and I don't want anyone to have that impression.

The very first thing that I do when someone suggests something, is try to break it in as many ways as possible. There is nothing more disappointing than spending days coding something, just to realize that it was always fated to be a bad idea from the start. I find it harder and harder to get myself to code anything anymore, so before I sit down to code I have to know that I'm not wasting my time.

Onto the issue at hand. The more that I think about it, the more that I don't want to touch vanilla combat too much beyond the armor stat and skill changes. As much as we all love the idea of super realistic combat, it's important to remember that this is still Minecraft. Polls that we have done in the past show that the majority of players tend to play in small groups cooperatively instead of competitively. However the competitive group tends to be the loudest. I just don't think that spending the time required to implement and balance combat that is designed for the small section of the player base that enjoys pvp is the right course of action to take. Especially when you take into account the amount of time that I actually find myself coding these days.

That's not to say that I don't care about pvp at all, however my focus remains more on pve.

Bioxx, strange to say but I think you should perhaps take a vacation from coding. It might be good for you to take a break for a good while and come back refreshed. I feel terrible thinking of you coding so hard and long for us with nothing in return. I can tell from the quality of this mod you work very hard. I imagine you honestly do enjoy coding, but doing it so frequently without stopping has made it quite bland. So yeah, take a vacation ^-^

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I would like to point out the Combat++ had already made a very realistic and great fighting system for MC 1.2.5

http://www.minecraft...10/page__st__80

It pretty much made so all attacks, uncluding mobs had actual animations. Everything was not an instant swing, you could see attacks coming. Because of this you had the opportunity to block or try and dodge it. There was also different attacks, like sweeping and arc attacks depending on the way you were moving when you started the attack. I read earlier in the thread(didnt read it all) that a lot of you thought that minecraft engine was very limited and this could not be done.

This mod shows otherwise.

edit: Also as for an armor stand. Risugammis mod has one, he basically uses a static NPC that you can add and remove armor too. Could just do that and give it a dummy skin texture

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Like Bioxx, I believe that we cannot treat this like real life. With the features so far, we are able to address many of the challenges we encounter in PvE and PvP. However, while we are not lacking much in principle, there are things that should exist that would make combat more immersive.
 
To list a few: shields, armor weight, More projectiles weapons, Chain mail armor, War animals. Some of which have been said in this Thread and in the Suggestion page.
 
But here is how I see it:

  • [*]
Shields: From personal experience with using the Asgard Shields mod I've found that its use against projectiles were well founded, but its use in close courters combat is situational.

For example:

 

  • If Cornered- It could be used to push back your opponent, like a shield bash.
  • If Jumped-  it will allow you to stand your ground without breaking the flow of combat.

  • [*]
Armor Weight: If used in combination with shields, it could fixe many gaps in the flow of combat. From what I've seen of this mod which is similar to TFC (But more combat oriented), Mine Fantasy  it creates a system of armor weight that may be appropriate for us. This would allow for more variety to a players choice of arsenal, may it be the light armor with ranged weapons choice, or heavy armor with melee weapons choice. However, like it was said by p122 in this Thread:

The problem with speed modifiers is the usual scenario:

Player A is in plate armor and alone. Slow, lumbering.
Player B is in leather, with a bow.

What will happen now is that Player B will now continually run away from A, shoot an arrow, and rinse and repeat. Since A cannot run as fast as B, there won't be a way from him to catch him with a melee weapon no matter what he does. So now he has the options of switching out armor mid-combat, changing to a bow himself, or die.

 

This Issue can be resolve through choices by Player A:

  • If shields exist, he can use it to reduce the oncoming damage of his opponent as he advances and/or hope Player B advances into his range or Stops his barrage.
  • if War animals exist, He could use it to attack player B or expose him and/or If it is a Horse (An Armored Horse would be Ideal), use it to outrun his opponent.
  • He himself could attempt to shot his opponent dead while letting his armor take the damage. fast shooting, Preloaded weapons like a Crossbow would suit this need well.

  • [*]
More Projectile Weapons: Even though the current features of Ranged attack are sufficient to deal moderate damage, There is lack of GOOD disposable ranged firepower in TFC. The regular bow, although its arrows are disposable, lacks power and the Javelins, although powerful, lack disposability. I imagine this is intentional, yet this also hinders advanced combat and makes ranged weapons only second rate and used for inflicting slight damage and not to kill. This sort of feature was done well by our own home-grown mods ExtraFirma and the now abandoned Terra Bow Mod. These sort of feature would grant players an edge in combat even if they lack strong armor, In addition, If added with my past mentioned features, It would link well together and make combat a little more strategized.

 

  • Chainmail Armor: This is more or less a feature that would suit well with Armor Weights, it would create and intermediate class of warrior that could afford to do both melee and ranged attack. The armor would vary against piercing and be better suited to deflect slashing than Crushing blows yet I believe it would receive a warm welcome from the TFC audience.

 

  • War Animals: This, for the most part, focuses on Horse. I have shared this opinion already in the Suggestion page and Dunkleosteus Stated:

    Horses will probably be implemented as they are (aside from a few tweaks just to bring them on par with other TFC animals) before any major changes are made to them.

     

    So I understand the circumstances of this feature a little better than the others. Yet I will state again, here, that I believe Horses clade in armor would enhance the combat structure of TFC with or without the addition of Armor Weights. It would grant greater mobility to player. In addition, like it was simply put in the Thread, I believe a Critical hit should be granted to horse bound players. On the other-hand, we currently possess Wolves, which if modified correctly, could become a better companion when attacking players. However, because of current changes they can no longer breed. This is sad and I fear that this may kill part of this idea, but I will let the admins correct me.

As to features like Skills and Magic, I believe we have to approach it cautiously. Too much focus on skills and the mod becomes like that MMORPG server pluggin. Too much focus on Magic and this mod becomes like Ars Magica or Thaumcraft (Not to say that there is anything wrong with the mods, Its just not my cup of tea). This doesn't mean that skills don't have a place, hell the EXP to Health system is a great feature, but is it necessary to have many more modifiers. As to magic, I do not know were to go with it, I just hope if it ever exists, it is purely additive.  

 

To me, this seems more of a Compilation than original idea, but then again, that is what this Thread needs. A little organization.

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Hello,

 

Just a few things I'd like to say, correct me if I am wrong, as I do not have my sources at hand and write from memory.

 

Plate Armor: Was not incredibly heavy (30-50 pounds), nor did it restrict movement of the user as it was fitted for them, and the weight was well distributed on the body. It was impervious to most attacks. There were pretty much two ways to hurt someone in plate: a heavy tapered weapon to combine force and a small point of impact to pierce the armor, or a very heavy weapon (war hammer) to cause severe damage to the user through blunt force trauma. It took luck to pierce with arrows or even crossbow bolts, and a range that wasn't to long. Else the men who wore them (usually important men) would be mince meat when fighting against countries like england whom (if memory serves) employed large amounts of professional and levied (peasant- also a fact I found interesting, though I am not sure if it's true, but I remember reading that it was law that peasant men had to own a bow and practice with it) longbowmen. I also distinctly remember reading that in later times, when firearms came into play, blacksmiths would test plate armor by shooting them at point blank range. The armor became stronger to compensate for use against firearms (at least the breastplate), and could be neigh bullet proof. The cost of this, was high though, as keeping the armor light still was expensive. The bulky and restrictive armor was for tournaments and such, or for parading.

 

Chain Armor: Was not incredibly heavy, if my memory serves, it weighed about the same as Plate, if not a little more. It's weight wasn't as evenly distributed as it hung from the shoulders, and only sinched at the waist with a belt if one of the long tunic style variants. It was difficult to pierce with arrows or melee weapons, especially the riveted kind. Slashing weapons couldn't penetrate it, and most skelitons of chain using men had blows focused on the legs. Slashing weapons could, however, still cause blunt force trauma, which a user was very susceptable to because of the flexibility of the armor.

 

Leather Armor: So many different kinds, you'd need a mechanic for each, I'd think. Some became hard like a shell. Some were supple. Some had chain sewn onto them. Some had rivets. Some had studs. Some had plates overlapping each other over the armor. If by leather, we are talking simply a piece of boiled leather, shaped to a man... I think it would protect against non-sharp slashes, like most european swords. A japanese katana would likely shred through it. Brigandine would be like a cheapo plate armor, I imagine.

 

Modern Soldiers: carry anywhere from 50-150 pounds on them, depending on MOS/RATE/AFSC and mission/duty. They are nimble. Have full range of motion. They key is training, fitness, and distribution of weight. A knight was a career soldier. They had all of those things and wore chain/plate. Classifying armor as light/medium/heavy is a RPG convention for balance and class differentiation. Movement speed/range of motion/ect wouldn't be affected by any armor (so long as it is made/fitted for the user)  in a believable setting.

 

Weapons: The main factors in whether or not a weapon will hurt someone is mass, velocity, and surface structure of the striking object and armor. In general, swinging a heavy weapon with slow speed will cause the same damage as a lighter weapon with more speed without factoring in armor. There has to be a threshold where a system says "This armor needs to be affected by "X" amount of force before damage is transfered to the wearer. Whether that is a cut, blunt, or puncture is determined by the weapon and force applied to the strike. Someone wearing a padded cap under a chain coif wth a plate helmet over that, might as well be wearing nothing if someone drops a big ass hammer on their head. Like-wise, if someone was struck full force by a sword on their arm while wearing chain armor, they would have a hard time using that arm. I think in most cases, mass becomes the deciding factor in weaponry when dealing with armored individuals. As even simply trying to pierce plate required the development of halberds and pollaxes, which simply used and incredibly hefty headpiece with a long tapered metal protrusion to poke into the armor. Again, it isnt just the spike magically opening up the armor, it is the mass of the weapon that create enough force to allow that point, which all the force is concentrated on, to penetrate the armor. 

 

For the sneaky back stabby builds, trying to sneak up behind someone in full plate and sticking a dagger in their back, I imagine would be impossible. Given how plate was made with grooves and contours, such a small weapon wouldn't have the mass required to penetrate the armor unless the user was hercules, and even then... Might the dagger simply snap at the guard? Even with chain, a dagger would have a hard time even breaking a riveted link...welded and butted links it would have to break through, and if you aren't lucky enough to strike where the link has been welded or butted?

 

Regardless of the situation, the weapon must meet neccesary force requirements to defeat the armor, and then damage can be figured. How much of that force is left over and transfered to the body, and it what way is it transfered to the body? A slashing-type striek would lose a great deal of it oomph, and might cause fracture, and maybe a nasty cut, but it is likely the easiest wound to patch up aside from the attack amputating the area completely or striking a major artery, nerve, or blood vessel. Puncture wounds are much more difficult to patch up, and often requires healing the wound from the inside out, it is also much easier to reach the depth of organs without having to go through bone first (which absorbs impact in and of itself).The shattering effect and force transference of a blunt weapon would make things incredibly difficult for someone to patch up. Hit hard enough in the chest, ribs shattered, likely causing damage to lungs and other organs. Hit in the head, you end up with scrambled brains and maybe skull fragments let lose in your head turning your brains into mush. ear drums bursting. Globe luxation, or literally your eyes popping out of your head (seriously, happens in bad car accidents, attacks with base ball bats, ect.)

 

Anyways... enough of my rambling...

 

Cheers,

Michael

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Dear god there's a lot of discussing here, so here's my 3 cents

 

 


 

  • Chainmail Armor: This is more or less a feature that would suit well with Armor Weights, it would create and intermediate class of warrior that could afford to do both melee and ranged attack. The armor would vary against piercing and be better suited to deflect slashing than Crushing blows yet I believe it would receive a warm welcome from the TFC audience.

 

I've actually made and worn this stuff, and here's some issues with it:

 

1: It does you no good against a mace or a well placed hit, in a weak spot of the armor, with an axe or a sword

2: You need padding underneath for it to actually work: the padding is called a Gambeson or an Aketon. It is made with cloth sheets sewn together, kinda like a quilt.

3: It impedes your movement more than plate armor, the rings aren't small like cloth, so they pile up when folded making it hard to fully compress your arms together against your chest when fighting.

4: It takes a VERY long time to make chainmail, it can normally take up to 200 hours to complete a hauberk and chausses to wear.

 

Another item that could be added in the combat revamp is lamellar armor: the Mongols, Japanese, Chinese, and even Vikings have worn this into battle during their times, so it does fit into  TFC's time era.

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Ok, I didn't read much of this thread(way too long, and will give me a grand headache if I do), but here are my ideas

 

On the system itself.

I think most people will agree that the flaw of the minecraft combat system is the rapid-click, better weapons/armor=winning system.

So I have a system in mind. Instead of a attacking immediately when you click the attack button(left click by default), I think holding down the attack/block(use) button while holding a weapon should put you in 'attack mode' in this mode, moving your mouse will move your weapon and you use the a/d(move left/right, respectively) to turn instead(you can't look up/down in attack mode this way, I know, but who fights while looking at the ground/sky? besides, this prevents people jumping like idiots during fighting to get crits to some degree).

The strength of your blow will be judged by how far your weapon traveled to hit the target, and how fast you swung it. if you did not swing your weapon fast/far enough, you will not deal damage to your opponent. Also, you walking around/your opponent moving does not count as a hit(to prevent players from holding the attack button and running around/turning wildly to hit opponents.) Once you hit an opponent, it will slow down the speed of your weapon drastically, preventing you from attacking large groups in one swing. However, a overly powered 'wild' swing will have shorter range and will deal much less damage than a carefully controlled one(no slashing wildly if you want to win). also, if you are blocked/parried, you will be stunned by 10 ticks for every 100 heart of damage your attack would have done(rounded down). However, if the attack is strong enough, it will break the block and stun the blocker instead, this time for 1 tick per every 2 hearts of damage the attack dealt. tier 1 weapons can block up to 250 hearts, tier 2 300, tier 3 350, etc.

 

Ranged weapons will not put you into 'attack mode' so you can get your range(up, down), and attacking with non-weapon tools/items should be nerfed massively

 

TFC damage is divided into 3 groups, slashing, piercing, and crushing, and different weapons deals different damage.

I think weapons should deal crushing and slashing damage by default, and piercing damage should be when stabbing.

Weapons should have 'uses' or special moves, or whatever you what to call them, that activates when you press the use button(right click by default).

Each weapon should have at least one 'specialty', and you should be able to cycle through them using the 'change mode' button(on that note, I ask for the change mode button to be changed to be button 3(clicking the mouse wheel)by default as I feel it will be easier to get to and use that way, and it removes the bother of moving your hand from mouse/wasd buttons to m to back, and moving to button 3 by default will let it be used for combat easily) The different moves/specialty/etc can be things like throw, stab, block, etc

 

Weapons can be divided into 4 groups normal, small, large, and ranged

Small weapons will usually deal less damage, but won't need to travel far/be fast to deal damage, making it faster. it will also have shorter range. takes less resources to make. It also has a block cap half that of larger weapons of the same tier

Normal weapons will have an average stats in everything, good for every day combat.

Large weapons will deal large amounts of damage, but need to be swung father/faster to be effective. It will also not lose much speed when it hits a target, allowing it to hit multiple targets(at least 3) in a single swing. It also takes lots of resources to make

Ranged weapons should stay more or less as it is now, as I think that is the best way.

Weapons will take different amounts of resources to make, depending on their type. a small weapon takes 1 ingot worth, a normal weapon takes 2 ingots worth(double ingots), and a large weapon takes 4 ingots worth(double sheets).

 

I think there should be more weapons, than just sword, mace, bow, javelin, Each with different abilities that matters. Weapons should be so while anyone can use them, it takes time and practice to become experts at a certain weapon, and being a expert can mean the difference between victory and defeat.

 

For small weapons, there should be

1. fighting knife.  meant for close combat, and a backup to the sword. deals less damage than a sword, but has a longer reach than most small weapons.

'moves' stab, block, throw

 

2.dagger, a weapon meant to deal heavy damage up close. deals damage on par with a sword, short reach.

'moves' stab, slit

 

3.dirk. long weapons,meant for stabbing good damage when stabbed

'moves' stab, block, slit

 

Normal weapons

1.swords. average, all-around basic weapon. good reach, and damage.

'moves' stab, block, lunge

 

2.mace. short, heavy weapon that deals crushing damage. can easily hit 2 targets in one swing. deals heavy knockback

'moves' block, smash

 

3. javelin. longer reach than normal. deals low damage and knockback.

'moves' stab, throw.

 

Large weapons

1. battleaxe. large, heavy ax that deals both slashing and crushing damage. can easily hit 5~7 targets in one swing

'moves' lunge

 

2.lance. long spear that cannot be thrown. it has the longest reach and deals good damage, but small knockback

'moves' stab, lunge

 

3.war hammer. Heavy hammer used to crush opponents. deals crushing damage. unlike most large weapons, it takes considerable effort to hit more than 1 target. However, it deals massive damage.

'moves' smash

 

moves stab and lunge deals piercing damage, stab is faster, but has less of a reach, lunge is slower, but has a bigger reach and deals slightly more damage.

block is blocking with your weapons, just like normal, smash is a fast, heavy hit that deals high knockback and crushing damage.

After you stab/lunge/smash, let go of the use button to attack again

throw is just like throwing a javelin. hold down the use button then let go.(range depends on how long you held the button down)

slit reduces your reach by half, but doubles you damage, and gives a 60% chance for a 1-hit kill if hit on the neck

 

I think damage should have some sort of bonus depending on what part of the body it hit (head. neck, arm, leg, heart), but so much that it'll make combat too easy or random, just enough to give a seasoned player an edge. Since you have to slash to attack, it were you hit will always be on the edge of a players body, unless you stab/lunge/smash/etc. Also, having full armor covers you almost completely, just leaving your arms and part of your face.

So for the bonuses, I think a stab/lunge to the heart/neck/eye, slashing damage to the neck, smashing damage to the head should deal bonus damage(your head is protected by your skull, so while a slash might not get through, a smashing hit will most likely give you a concussion or kill you. of course, a blade can crush your skull just as well as a mace, but it's a game, and game needs balancing, so.)

 

Armor should play an important role in combat, and there should be 2 different slots for armor, one for 'outer armor', and one for 'inner armor'(clothing, whatever). you can wear them both separately or together. 'outer armor' gives more protection, but 'inner armor' is cheaper to make, and better for day-to-day things. outer armor is made of metal, and inner armor is made of leather and cloth, and supplements 'outer armor' Heavy armor should also reduce the knockback you get from attacks

 

'outer armor' gives loads of protection, but crushing and piercing damage can get through

1.plate armor: would block most damages dealt, but takes much more resources to make (3~4 times the metal armor use now), and slows you down, and makes you tire faster. cannot wear 'inner armor' when wearing plate armor

2.scale armor: would take less resources to make than plate, and while it gives good protection from slashing and piercing damage, it gives less protection from crushing damage. It makes you tire faster.

3.chain armor: takes less resources to make than scale, it gives fine protection from slashing damage, but gives less protection against piercing and crushing damage.

 

'inner armor' gives protection against crushing damage better than some 'outer armor', but offers less protection against slashing/piercing damage. Most cannot block projectiles.

1. hardened leather: protects against all damages, including piercing, projectile, etc. takes lots of resources

2. studded leather: protects against crushing damage, 40% chance to protect against slashing/piercing damage.

3.leather: everyday leather. ok protection against crushing damage. very small protection against slashing damage.

4.padding: gives great protection against crushing damage, and fall damage, but offers no protection against slashing/piercing/projectile damage.

 

Also, I think armor should have 'chinks' that you can hit to avoid armor protection, but it should be small and hard to aim at

 

I think potions would be another good addition to combat.

Potions could be hard to make and time/resource consuming, but should be able to give you a edge over your opponent without being too unfair, and ignores armor

 

War animals

Dogs, horses, etc

ride them to battle, fight with them, etc

Well, a war horse will be trained to not mind the confusion of battle, and would be strong, pulling chariots or carrying riders in full armor, and still having speed to outrun a man. of course a horses with a unarmored man will be faster than a horse carrying a fully armored knight. The horse will be trained to be able to kick and bite at the enemy, helping the rider.

A war dog would be bred for strength and speed, and can be used to patrol, find hidden enemies and traps, and fight. They could be armored in body armor, and would be able to easily take out an unarmed man

 

Also, mobs and players should be 'solid' while you can push mobs and stop them somewhat, you can walk through players and mobs, and this makes guarding tricky, as an attacker can run right past you unstopped unless you can kill them. So I think mobs and players should be solid, like walls&blocks, and you should not be able to go 'through' a player. This means that one or two players in heavy armor can hold back an entire army in narrow passes, as the walls will only allow one to come at a time, and they cannot run past the guard.

 

Another thing I think can help combat is stamina and water currents. If swimming uses lots of stamina, and you need stamina to swim, and currants made swimming hard, especially in armor, then it would make rivers, moats, lakes and ocean a very real, very useful protection. A river can prevent player from crossing meaning a bridge is needed(or a shallow part of the river, or a place where the river is narrow enough to jump across), and if you can guard a bridge/destroy it, you can stop/delay your enemies from crossing, earning you time. If you make your town/city near a river, that side will be protected. You'll have to note the terrain as well in combat. Other then currants, water can rust metals(remove durability), grass can slow troops down and give a chance to trip a running mob/player bog can prevent you from running, etc. Terrain can shape lots of aspects of combat. If there are quicksand, then going on foot will be better, lest you accidentally run into quicksand. If a sudden reduction of speed can make you trip(stop, get damaged, fall off mount, etc) then if you in counter a bog(slow you down) while horseback, you'll have to slow down, or the horse can trip and you can fall off.

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What about making different shields in TFC? I got a funny mechanic for it:

 

Description

Shields work a bit like armor. Alongside the armor tab, is a shield tab. In it any shields can be placed. Once you wear the shield, it appears on your left hand (the one that doesn't carry the tools). And to use the shield, press B. It will block almost all the damage taken, but will take up durability. Shields can also lose durability if you fall in lava, for example. If the shield is wooden, it will reduce durability faster, to recreate burning.

 

Materials

Shields can be made of bark, wooden, of leather, and of all tool metals.

 

Wooden shields

Wooden shields include bark shields, and wooden shields. Bark shields are the only shields that can be made in the stone age. To get bark, craft a log with an axe. (Remember the old crafting? :P ) Then craft the bark with a handle. There is a bark shield.

 

Wood shields are made with planks. Just craft a + of any planks in the crafting table to create an unhooped shield. Then craft with another two planks and a handle.

 

Leather shields

Just craft a wooden shield with a leather roll. It has extra durability and can protect a bit more.

 

Metal shields

To make metallic shields, make a tool metal double sheet. Just after that, a shield plan, (or well now that they are no more in b78 a smithing slot for shield). Smith it and a shield will be there. Shields can't be casted. Craft with a handle to finish the shield.

 

Handles

Handles for shields are comparable of sticks for tools. There are wooden handles. To make a wooden handle craft a < in sticks in the crafting table.

 

Storage

Shields are too large for chests. Use instead tool racks.

 

Shapes

Just for the aesthetics you can make square, round, norman, crescent or arched. Maybe an option after choosing shield plan.

That's my idea hope you like.

Edited by PaoloEmilio
Topic Merged
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Also, make wooden and leather shields be able to "catch" arrows, they'll stick into the shield, and afterwards you can toss the shield in your crafting slot to take the arrows out.

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Also, make wooden and leather shields be able to "catch" arrows, they'll stick into the shield, and afterwards you can toss the shield in your crafting slot to take the arrows out.

--

Sounds nice, but taking the arrows out could harm the shield more? Could it be done with javelins?

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Oh yea, shields.

At first, I thought about it, but I thought it would need duel-welding to work properly, and the main reason for a shield is to attack and defend at the same time

And I couldn't think of a way for duel-welding to work nicely, I dropped the idea. But a armor slot for shields is a great idea.

I think shields should protect your left side(to some degree(also, I think switching hands, like say, sword on left, shield on right could be interesting) even when not actively used.

 

There should be a small shield, for cheap, light, defensive measures, it would protect less, but be good for early defense and light infantry/scouts.

 

A 'normal' shield for average stats, good, all-round sheild

 

A big/heavy shield, 100% damage reduction, huge durability, full protection when active(all front side protected), even wood needs some metal(to reinforce it) when crafting.

Extremely heavy, horrible mobility when moving

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