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Wayward

Ideas about food preservation.

125 posts in this topic

It's a game, so we could just pretend that oak has the same properties as every oak ever named oak.

It's believable enough I think

I totaly agree. thats pretty mutch what i meant when i said assume its coark oak

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- Deleted - 

Edited by Kittychanley
Only help if you can be helpful.
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-<insert insult here ;)>- - fake quote:Jelly's were invented in like, after tfc's timeframe because i serched it on one wikipedia page.- -so yes i think jams are staying-

  1) Wow, you managed to use a straw man AND ad hominem in the same terrible dismissal. That'd be impressive if it wasn't worryingly sad. 2) Nothing's 'staying' if the mod authors dismissed it, just because you found a single flaw in one person's argument. I don't care if it's the single greatest idea since sliced bread (which they apparently haven't had yet) - if the devs or mods say no, then no it is. Your opinion will change exactly nothing.

- Deleted -

Now I REALLY want to know what this said.
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Yeah i meant jams arent a stupid addition and i think the devellopers should keep or add it

- Deleted -

I want to know to
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It doesn't feel right. The devs agree. That is and always will be the deciding factor.

I don't hate jam. It simply has no place in this mod at this time.

I would ask that for the sake of productivity and out of respect for the thread, the pointless back and forth arguing over jams and such be put to rest.

There are many other useful things that we could be discussing here.

My personal favorites being smokehouses for meats and drying produce.

Because I feel I should add something here (otherwise I'm just contributing to the jam fiasco) I would suggest that refrigeration involve a method similar to what took place in the past. A large block of ice would be covered in an enourmous pile of straw, insulating it from the heat of summer and keeping food inside it cold and fresh. We have ice, we have thatch... Multi-block structure anyone?

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I dont know. I just "feel" like you that they do have their place. I know alot of people who would aggre whit me, and are waiting for this kind of updated. Im pretty sure a poll would solve the popularity question thou

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Popularity doesn't matter. I don't like the idea of jams, and I'm pretty sure Bioxx doesn't like the idea either.

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Fine, i understand the modders decision, even thou i think it would fit well inside the current tfc way. i do hope however that other things, like pikling and storing meats and fish in sald barrels will be added

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One of the methods of preserving that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the ability to make crackers/hardtack as a way to preserve grains for a longer period of time.  To balance the preservation they might take longer to eat, and require a more advanced cooking method.

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One of the methods of preserving that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the ability to make crackers/hardtack as a way to preserve grains for a longer period of time.  To balance the preservation they might take longer to eat, and require a more advanced cooking method.

 

How would that system be any different than the already implemented method for making bread?

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How would that system be any different than the already implemented method for making bread?

 

I wasn't aware that bread increased the preservation time of grain beyond the usual 'cooked' bonus that other cook-able foods gain - I had assumed that the main benefit of baking bread was that you doubled the oz of edible material.

I think he intends to use 'hardtack production' as a means of giving grain an extra preservation bonus, like salting meat.

 

Though my post in the granary thread should help out with your grain storage woes, guys >> *coughcough*

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How would that system be any different than the already implemented method for making bread?

 

Bread can be made in any fire, crackers would need to be cooked on a metal pan, and probably on a forge as well.  

I wasn't aware that bread increased the preservation time of grain beyond the usual 'cooked' bonus that other cook-able foods gain - I had assumed that the main benefit of baking bread was that you doubled the oz of edible material.

I think he intends to use 'hardtack production' as a means of giving grain an extra preservation bonus, like salting meat.

 

Though my post in the granary thread should help out with your grain storage woes, guys >> *coughcough*

Correct, my thinking is that crackers/hardtack would decrease the rate of decay as opposed to bread, which has a higher water content and decays much quicker.

 

Granary's would be great for grain storage at a home base, I see hardtack as being a good food for long periods away from home, especially during the winter when wild food is scarce.

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I apologize for playing forum necromancer and resurrecting a topic from several months ago but I think this has a lot of potential, if not in the primary game, then as a Mod for TFC and if nothing else would like to work with a modder to see some of these things implemented. Going into anti-microbial herbs could get extremely tedious so I would prefer not to see something like that, but the ideas of dehydration and pickling makes a great deal of sense and seems as if it could be easily implemented.  I am also not a huge fan of jams given that without pressurization sugar isn't much of a preservative (granted there are situations where it WORKS as a preservative but these are few and far between)

 

Given that vinegar is already in the game, pickling is a perfect example of easy implementation.  Fruits, veggies, and even meats (pigs feet or eggs anybody?) can be pickled.  Furthermore it is something that could be implemented VERY easily by the creation of a brine recipe and a 'pickled' enchantment (or the equivalent of whatever salted currently is) which can apply to foods.  A brine recipe could be crafted by combining a bucket of vinegar and salt.

 

Dehydration given the ease of doing it and game balance should be something reserved for late game.  This could be easily restricted by requiring the player to create a 'drying rack' which would have to be made of steel... which would also make sense given that you don't want your drying rack to melt...  It could be placed over a forge similar to a crucible to use that as a heat source.  I am no programmer and I am guessing it would be somewhat difficult to implement but given that the crucible works I have no doubt that this would be, at least, possible.  The dehydrator would provide another 'enchantment' type ability to the food of simply 'dehydrated'.  Dehydration works upon bread, meats, fruits, veg... basically anything that doesn't melt (so I guess no dehydrated cheese).  This differs from the normal cooking method in that it is an extra step of preservation...

 

To answer KittyChanley's question about dehydrated bread: If you go to your kitchen and make a loaf of bread and leave it out, one of two things will inevitably happen depending upon the temperature and humidity of your kitchen.  The first is that your bread will mold making it inedible... in terrafirmacraft, this is represented by the decay system.. i.e. you cut off the moldy parts and keep the rest.  The second is that the bread will go stale... unlike mold, going stale doesn't make the bread inedible and it doesn't make it harmful to eat... it just makes it less fluffy, hard to chew, and not really taste good but you CAN survive on it.  Dehydrating bread basically insures that the bread goes down the route of going stale instead of molding... i.e. it tastes like hell but it will last a long time AND you can live on it (although you probably won't enjoy it).

 

Both of these methods can preserve food for an EXTREMELY long time.  Hell, the other day I ate a bag of deer jerky (dehydrated venison) that was made several YEARS ago and it tasted much the same now as it did then and at my family reunion we had a jar of pickled cauliflower that my great grandmother had pickled before she passed away and she died almost 10 years ago and it was still quite edible.  Some people might be thinking that these things last so long because they were preserved using modern methods... but in reality, in spite of the fancy cans and electric dehydrators the basic principal is exactly the same and these tools make it easier, not necessarily more effective.  Furthermore these methods have been used for years with dried meat originating long recorded history and dried bread was used for literally thousands of years as a portion of the diet on soldiers (yes, thousands, Ramses to Wellington all saw their soldiers have hardtack).

 

Where I expect most people would have a bone to pick with my idea would be on the implementation and I would like feedback.

 

Dehydration and Pickled effects would work as a pseudo-enchantment in the same way that salted currently does.  The effect of these pseudo-enchantments would be that the process cuts the weight of the food by about half to two thirds and the item itself no longer decays.  The reason for this is that while these foods do decay in real life, they do so at such a slow rate that it is completely negligible provided you don't get them wet or take them out of their brine etc.  It basically requires user error to make them go bad.

 

Dehydrated and Pickled food would keep you alive and would provide you with the nutrients necessary to stay healthy.  I.e. eating dried meat would aid your hunger and provide you with protein and eating dried apples would aid your hunger and give you fruit.

 

 

Dehydrated and Pickled foods are just that briney/salty or dried... there is a reason why they are served at bars and that is to make you thirsty.  So eating them will lower your thirst bar, nothing extreme, but it will be a small but noticeable decrease. 

 

Dehydrated and Pickled foods may not be included when the player crafts meals... with the following reasoning.

 

Why not pickles: I am well aware that people have pickles on sandwiches but these tend to be there more for either garnish or to add a hint of flavor more than to actually provide nutrition (you don't go to the local burger joint and get a cheeseburger and point at the couple slices of pickles that are on it and say "wow, I'm eating my veggies!". 

 

Why not dehydrated food: Imagine for a moment that you are going to your local steakhouse for dinner which specializes in all things beef.  They obviously have steaks (represented in TFC by Cooked Beef) and they might even have Corned Beef (represented in TFC by Salted Beef) but you will be pretty hard pressed to find a restaurant that would serve you a meal featuring beef jerky.  The reason for this being that while beef jerky kicks ass and I love it as much as anybody else... it is something you eat to survive or as a snack... not as a meal... it just isn't THAT satisfying. 

 

I am also sure some players may not like the idea of food that doesn't spoil as the struggle to survive and advance seems to be the premise of the mod.  So for those of you will balance concerns, let me highlight the following.

 

Balanced: I would be so bold as to say what I have proposed is actually as ballanced within the game as it is built currently.  The reason being that this would make it no easier to survive than it is to thrive presently.  Afterall if you can get a mated pair of pigs and can survive long enough to breed them twice you will never really have to worry about simply having food just for bare bones survival again as your pigs will reproduce quick enough that you can simply kill one anytime your food runs out and by the time your new meat runs out you will have 10 to replace the one you just killed. 

Note: Granted this proposition WOULD allow you to fill up other nutrient bars than just protein but it also requires processing and other resources (wood for heat to dehydrate and vinegar and salt to pickle)

 

Player Investment: Currently if a player gets a stable farm up and running there is no advantage to having a larger farm.  Their food will decay no matter what actions they take and they will have to repeat the next year.  With something such as this implemented it will give the player a value in having a large farm as a surplus will have effects in the following years and can give a player a sense of accomplishment. 

 

Player Experience: A few weeks ago I shot a boar (with a flintlock, with open sites, at around 250 yards, through heavy brush,though the heart... not bragging or anything) and then I butchered and processed the meat.  The ability to keep some steaks to eat now, freeze some for later, and dehydrate some to eat as a snack at some unforeseen date in the future is all part of the experience.  I feel that what I have proposed falls will into the realm of believability (with an attempt to keep a limited burden on a mod developer) without forcing realism (i.e. the player must construct a meat slicer to slice their meat then, then get a fire to exactly x temperature for y time period or create a special pickling jar which must be cast of only the finest of glass...) to the point of becoming tedious. 

 

Encourages Different Styles of Playing: Minecraft is a game with two key components, building and survival, with survival obviously becoming more important in the TFC mod than in the vanilla game.  That doesn't however remove the significance of building... this mod would allow a player that wants to concentrate more upon building while still having the enhanced realism of TFC to have exactly that.  They could spend a year farming, build up a surplus, then spend the next year building, relying upon the food they build up during the previous year for survival.

 

Multiplayer Improvement: The problem with playing TFC in multiplayer is that when you log off and log back in a couple days later (unless you turn the server off) your supplies have suddenly rotted away to nothing and you are once again in need of foodstuffs.  The inclusion of these preservation systems would substantially increase the playability of the mod on multiplayer as players would have the option of treating their food in such a fashion that it would not longer be gone with they came back.  I am not saying it is perfect but while keeping the decay system intact in multiplayer it is the best I can personally think of. 

 

Other stuff:

If this were implemented I think it might also be pertinent to include...

the ability to boil a bucket of salt water to acquire a single unit of salt. 

possibly include a clay vessel in the pickling recipe, brine + vessel + food, as opposed to just brine + food

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redacted

just watch your language, eternalundeath.

 

Edit> I curse like a sailor around here and it's never been an issue, as long as it's relevant. My Lewis Black rants are sometimes the most constructive post on a thread. What was the problem with this one?

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Reading diagonally (post probably will be updated several times, considering a give a flying whirl):

 

Yes, I DO put pickles in my meals. Soups, ragouts, that-stuff-in-the-pot-where-you-throw-everything-in-and-it-comes-out-pretty-delicious-I-don't-know-the-english-name-for, etc.

I also can name couple of meals that benefit from having some dehydrated ingredients, but those are rare and far between.

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I know I like some dehydrated stuff in my salad.

Also, it works fine cut into tiny pieces and mix into stuff, or boiled to make stew/soup/broth/whatever

 

And you realize that garlic is usually used to add flavor as well, right? I mean, you don't order I dunno, garlic steak, point to the few cloves of garlic, and say "Hey I'm eating my veggies!" either.

 

And yes, people don't usually put jerky on meals. Doesn't mean that other dehydrated food aren't used in meals, and most certainly does not mean that you can't use it in meals.

 

And also, I don't see why a drying rack has to be steel or placed over a forge. One made of wood works just as fine(it's not like you're sticking in in the fire) and sunlight works just fine for drying stuff. Or if you don't like sunlight, a wood fire/ember/whatever works perfectly fine as well

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One of the things to consider is that  dehydrated meat does not necessarily mean Jerky beef.

If you travel around the world you will find that there are many degrees of dehydrated meat.Jerky beef is one of the most extreme.

You do not need to do it to that point to achieve preservation.

There are several dishes on south america that use preserved meat. Usually cooked with beans. 

Some times with rice and beans all together and other times in a kind of stew. 

You will always love the food that you got used to eat in your childhood. So even after the invention of refrigerators people continued to eat sun dried met for the taste it has.

One of the important aspects as far as gameplay goes and  in a mod that tries to achieve believability is that we do not need refrigerators.

People were able to survive very well without them for thousands of years.

Most dry grains can last for a year without the need of any preservation. If you enclose grains in a air tight clay pot it will last for many years. Like 20 or more.

Sun dry meat and fruits also will last for a long time.

Cheese will last for years.

The same goes for fruit wine.

Also we have jams and jelly.

One way to preserve meat is to lightly fry it and store it in a container full of fat. It lasts for a long time and is delicious. When is time to eat you just have to finish frying or cooking it. 

I hope the devs look for the way people around the world preserve food. America has been industrialized for so long that we are too far away from that kind mentality.

When the native Americans killed a bison they would not turn the whole thing into jerky. Jerky was reserved for traveling. Most meat was dry but not to that point. 

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Reading diagonally (post probably will be updated several times, considering a give a flying whirl):

 

Yes, I DO put pickles in my meals. Soups, ragouts, that-stuff-in-the-pot-where-you-throw-everything-in-and-it-comes-out-pretty-delicious-I-don't-know-the-english-name-for, etc.

I also can name couple of meals that benefit from having some dehydrated ingredients, but those are rare and far between.

 

I am not saying that it isn't done, I am saying that it relatively uncommon.  I have had polish soups that are made primarily of pickles and they aren't bad.  What I am saying is that by and large these things aren't done... and that the primary use of pickles is as an extra item to accompany other dishes.  I also think restricting them out of meals would (at least given the ideas I proposed) help in balancing them mechanically.  I.e. you might not be able to do everything with them that you would like, but that is part of a balancing act to enhance game-play as much as anything.  Remember, I did propose that these be an indefinite preservation tactic, given that manner of advantage, a mechanical balance must be struck somewhere. 

 

 

 

I know I like some dehydrated stuff in my salad.

Also, it works fine cut into tiny pieces and mix into stuff, or boiled to make stew/soup/broth/whatever

 

And you realize that garlic is usually used to add flavor as well, right? I mean, you don't order I dunno, garlic steak, point to the few cloves of garlic, and say "Hey I'm eating my veggies!" either.

 

And yes, people don't usually put jerky on meals. Doesn't mean that other dehydrated food aren't used in meals, and most certainly does not mean that you can't use it in meals.

 

And also, I don't see why a drying rack has to be steel or placed over a forge. One made of wood works just as fine(it's not like you're sticking in in the fire) and sunlight works just fine for drying stuff. Or if you don't like sunlight, a wood fire/ember/whatever works perfectly fine as well

 

As I mentioned previously, the reason I site not using dehydrated or pickled foods is meals is for two reasons. 

 

The first is mechanical balance.  it is not rocket science to identify the advantage provided by a food with indefinite preservation.  I am in favor of indefinite preservation because it provides a new level of development to the game, as well as solving a number of problems related to multi-player and allowing the player to go from a survival stage to a thriving stage later in the game.

 

The second is that it falls within the realm of belief.  When I am talking about dehydration I am not talking about dehydration at the same level as the dehydrated goods you tend to buy in your grocery store.  Fully dehydrated foods tend to be very hard and not easy to eat.  Jerky you make at home, or buy in a bag at a grocer is nothing at all like the dehydration I am speaking of.  You can rip it, chew it, and with a bit of water get it down... but it isn't pleasant.  Looking at the example of hard tack, many soldiers had to dunk it in coffee/tea/water before they could even eat it because it was too hard.

 

Once again, I am not saying that it isn't done, I am saying that the the situations that it is done are quite uncommon. 

 

As for garlic (and lets throw in onions with your statement), you are quite right, at least as far as modern times go.  However, this wasn't always the case.  Garlic and onions have historically been extremely inexpensive because they are relatively easy to grow.  This meant that many people, particularly those echelons of society looking only to survive, had to resort to eating what they could get... i.e. onions and garlic.  While boiled onion smeared on bread might have been common in years past, that little delicacy really didn't stick around but French Onion Soup and Spaghetti aglio e olio (pasta with garlic and oil) did and are remnants of the 'peasant' food of the time period. 

 

The reason why I liked the idea of a steel drying rack, is once again tied to the concept of indefinite preservation.  As mentioned previously, indefinite preservation would be a HUGE benefit to the player as the moment that technology is attained, survival just got infinitely easier because you can keep a stash of food in your basement and never worry about it rotting.  Having this be a steel item means it can't be attained until later in the game.  While a wooden dehydration rack does actually work, the ability to do that in this game means that the moment you had a saw and could work wood, food preservation would be yours as well.  (Not to mention that the steel age is so hard to attain that the indefinite preservation ability provides extra motivation to get all the tons of iron you need to get there. 

 

 

One of the things to consider is that  dehydrated meat does not necessarily mean Jerky beef.

If you travel around the world you will find that there are many degrees of dehydrated meat.Jerky beef is one of the most extreme.

You do not need to do it to that point to achieve preservation.

There are several dishes on south america that use preserved meat. Usually cooked with beans. 

Some times with rice and beans all together and other times in a kind of stew. 

You will always love the food that you got used to eat in your childhood. So even after the invention of refrigerators people continued to eat sun dried met for the taste it has.

One of the important aspects as far as gameplay goes and  in a mod that tries to achieve believability is that we do not need refrigerators.

People were able to survive very well without them for thousands of years.

Most dry grains can last for a year without the need of any preservation. If you enclose grains in a air tight clay pot it will last for many years. Like 20 or more.

Sun dry meat and fruits also will last for a long time.

Cheese will last for years.

The same goes for fruit wine.

Also we have jams and jelly.

One way to preserve meat is to lightly fry it and store it in a container full of fat. It lasts for a long time and is delicious. When is time to eat you just have to finish frying or cooking it. 

I hope the devs look for the way people around the world preserve food. America has been industrialized for so long that we are too far away from that kind mentality.

When the native Americans killed a bison they would not turn the whole thing into jerky. Jerky was reserved for traveling. Most meat was dry but not to that point.

 

How much meat was to be dehydrated would depend upon when and where the bison was killed.  Traders and travelers would simply dry almost the whole thing and move on, whereas in a village, dehydration was not necessary because because there were enough people to consume it before the meat turned.  When stocking up for winter months though, it would be dehydrated.  Dehydrated meat was then mixed with fat to make a substance known as pemmican.  This would also on occasions be mixed with dried fruit.  In TFC however the problem is that you don't necessarily have a village to prepare food for, and in single player the option to fully dehydrate things so they last extreme lengths of time is preferable to partially dehydrating it and having half of it spoil before you can eat it. 

 

The U.S. and Canada were not that rapidly industrialized, nor have they been thoroughly industrialized for all that long.  Remember just how large the U.S. and Canada are to their European counterparts, and how spread out their populations are (particularly in the Southern United State where).  If you have been in the Southern U.S. for any period of time you might have heard of Country Ham or Barbeque?

 

Country Ham is little more than a chunk of pork which is salted, salted, salted, salted, salted and salted a little more to get it a bit more salty.  It is basically dehydrated through being packed in salt.  After a few months of absorbing the briney goodness, the meat would be hung and smoked.  After smoking the meat would be hung, and it would inevitably mold... but only on the outside.  The mold could be left there or wiped off... but even the most motivated of bacteria can't grow in an environment that hostile to them so it would never get below the surface. 

 

Barbeque, comes in a lot of forms and with different sauces but the one constant is that it is smoked (and in most cases brined).  This is just another example of a preservation technique becoming a popular cooking method.

 

The primary issue I see people taking with my idea is that pickles and dehydrated foods couldn't be used in meals, I am curious if your primary disagreement with that is in regards to mechanical balance or sense of realism?

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You have good points there.

As far as realism goes I was pointing that people were able to survive for the winter with partially dehydrated meat. The totally dehydrated meat or jerky beef was mostly used for traveling.

When hunters had to go on expeditions they would make small wrappings of dry meat, fat and dry fruits.

As far as game mechanics my suggestion was that  no mater what kind of preservation you use food should not last more than one year.

I know in real life grains can last for 20 year in a silo and dry meat lasts a long time.

For balance and gameplay I think 1 year is plenty of time for food preserving.

That said I also think that food preserving should be something easily attained. Since caveman was able to do it.

Basic freezers were also used by caveman and I think they should be a part of the game as long as they are not something that can be exploited in summer.

Yes the Egyptians hauled ice from the mountain tops to have ice cream, But that was for the nobles.

As gameplay goes if you want to add a fridge made of red steel so that would emulate how rich you are, I would be OK.

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I got to thinking today about grain preservation.  With the new drying racks in Build 79,  how about the creation of noodles?   Break up a 160oz dough into smaller pieces, and hang it on the drying rack.   To reconstitute it and eat it,  put dried noodles, a bucket of salt water and a ceramic bowl together to get a bowl of noodles.  Cook the bowl in a firepit to get a bowl of cooked noodles which are finally edible.  Eat the bowl as is, or put into the cooking table in the salad/meal tab to make meals.

 

The decay of the dried noodles should be very low.   A sacrifice of the dried noodles is the grain can't be used for feeding animals or crafting into breads,  and also require more work to eventually use.  But it had a very long shelf life and uses resources to be able to make (bowls, yarn to dry)

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kitty update the wiki about the meals preparation !!! :D

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Do you really wan't to do that? remember that crops take time to grow, so if you let them sit until you need to eat, then replant them, you could run out of food in-between harvests

 

Good tactic:

 

-Harvest in autumn

-Preserve that food as much as you can

-Feed animals

-Eat from your harvests

-Once baby animals are born start eating meat and you will have meat while your veggie supply decreases

-If you still lack food in between harvests and slaughters feel free to fish or collect fruit from trees and berries

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How about jam? jam is a good way to store fruits for a long time.It'd give sugar a use as well

Great Idea. I think though to do this you will need to be able to mold a pot. (Uncreative item already in the game with no use) and with this pot you should put it over a fire pit and put in the fruit as well as some sugar and minor amounts of water and wait a very long time and the jam will be created. (You could also put it on toast)
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Great Idea. I think though to do this you will need to be able to mold a pot. (Uncreative item already in the game with no use) and with this pot you should put it over a fire pit and put in the fruit as well as some sugar and minor amounts of water and wait a very long time and the jam will be created.(You could also put it on toast)

 

As stated many times before, jam is not an effective preservative. The added sugar makes it even more likely to spoil. It is the modern process of canning that makes jams last for a long time.

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Let's not start that argument again.

 

Just wondering, but how many ways of preserving food do we have?

I know we can brine, pickle, dry, and smoke food, but how many foods are covered by those methods?

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