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Mileaos2

Metallurgy rework (former no ore reduction in crucible/ pit kiln)

28 posts in this topic

mrs. €dit says: changes to older post:

Pre-Iron shaftoven metal cakes can be smashed with an hammer (without anvil) and some other things

iron changes, at the second part

Why my suggestions?

the first part: delaying bronze tools a bit, cuz most of the time everyone just skips copper tools. and with the metal pieces are alloys easy to combine

second part: its just for believability, the material costs should be the same. and it should be less difficult to create steel with the metal pieces.

 

first part:

pre iron

most ores have to be reduced, to become native metals, but that need charcoal.

my suggestion is, to take avay the feature of smelting ores from the crucible enterely!

(native ores would work, but they bring in lot impurities...)

and the pit kiln should only be able to smelt native ores!

so my suggestion is an shaft oven

a new furnance between the bloomery and the pit kiln.

the shaft oven should only need simple materials to build (no metal)

maybe any cobblestone and some clay to prevent falling cobblestone.

the shaft oven needs charcoal and can smelt/reduce all types of non iron ores.

but only 1 metal type at the same time, so the crucible would be an excellent device to mix alloys and before that the pit kiln.

the shaft oven produces an "metal cake", simmilar to the iron bloom from the bloomery

then "mine" the cake with an hammer (any hammer will do) and you gain metal pieces (each 1/10 of an ignot)

those metal pieces should stack up to 32 or even 64, with those it should be quite easy to mix your alloys.

 

summary:

only native ores in the pit kiln

no ore "smelting" in the crucible

shaft oven for reducing non native ores (can handle native ones aswell)

 

second part:

iron changes.

smelting iron is very difficult.

only the blast furnance is capable to produce liquid iron.

i suggest the forge (and crucible ofc) isnt able to smelt iron at all.

in order to gain iron ignots from the refined bloom is just continue hammering it on the anvil until its an ignot.

to gain iron pieces place the refined bloom on the anvil and split it again, to gain the 1/10 ignot pieces. (should be doable with any ignots aswell)

with those you can mix them with pieces from other metals and flux to create steel ignots. (steel production is an rather complicated thing befor the industrial revolution)

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Most of the early (copper, bronze era) ores are Sulphides or Carbonates. The sulphur and carbon are relatively easy to turn into SO2 and CO2 via roasting. Thus the pit kiln.

High heat and excess carbon (charcoal) is needed to reduce iron oxides to an elemental form, thus the bloomery. Cassiterite is also an oxide, but doesn't have irons bonding energy and is more easily reduced. Further, it will reduce even more easily in the presence of free sulphur or carbon from copper ores like malachite and tetrahedrite.

Technically the native ores should be processable simply through simple mechanical means (pulverizing with a hammer). The native ores are smelted because melt and pour is easier then to work (a la those iron blooms) every single ore into a pure nugget, then welding each of those nuggets into a usablel bar.

Limonite is actually hydrous (wet) hematite, and can be roasted to remove the water prior to proper smelting to save on high carbon fuel (charcoal or coke).

While it would be kinda cool to add things like only being able to pit kiln cassiterite in the presences of suplhur and carbon bearing ores or through the use of a charcoal pit furnace, and/or increase charcoal cost on non-pit kilned limonite. I don't think it would add enough to overall gameplay to justify the extra coding time.

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This would add a LOT more tedium. Especially to mid-game, which already has so much between the Bloomery and Blast Furnace. Also you have not thought of one thing, this would make it so Black bronze is the only bronze you could smelt before aquiring a Copper Anvil. Anvils take time to make so most people wait a while before making their first one. This would put even more emphisis on black bronze and make it so the progression is Copper<Black Bronze<Bronze<Iron etc, which is not historically acurate. Bronze was used long for tools, correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt anyone ever used precious metals to make tools and weapons :P (A.K.A Black Bronze)

 

Edit:

 

I guess with GunnerX's information (thank you for posting all that BTW, fascinating info. Are you a geoligist?) you could still pit kiln Cassiterite and thus make regular bronze, taking the emphasis off Black Bronze.

 

However the added tedium still remains.

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Yep, black bronze is actually a jewelers metal, softer then pure copper, and shouldn't be a Tier 2 metal to begin with but meh...

Also Rose Gold.

On the other hand tetrahedrite has frequent impurities of arsenic, silver and iron. I'm not 100% up on my ancient metallurgy, but arsenic bronze should be feasible, and if notheing else, the Chinese used copper-nickel alloys in weaponry. So those might be possible replacements.

Edit: No, let's just say amateur mineralogist. My brother is also studying material science and metallurgy, so I get to talk steel micro-structure with him and stuff like that.

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What is the difference between Arsenic Bronze and regular Bronze?

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Arsenic is the hardening agent as opposed to tin, possibly in addition to zinc or tin. It is also effective at fairly low percentages like 2% arsenic. It should also be somewhat lighter in colour. I don't recall where exactly it was historically used, but basically if the local ore sources were sufficiently "impure" it was possible. A more reliable alternative, though possibly anachronistic, would be to add realgar or oripiment to your molten copper. But I don't think either of those exist in the game at present.

Again probably a lot more trouble to code then it's worth though, aside from possibly realgar, oripiment additions.

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well, the biggest point of my suggestion was to delay your first bronze tools :P

cause iam unhappy with not using copper tools, because i normally skip copper age completly

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well, the biggest point of my suggestion was to delay your first bronze tools :Pcause iam unhappy with not using copper tools, because i normally skip copper age completly

Agreed that skipping copper is an issue that should be addressed. But you still have to figure out how to deal with cassiterite and black bronze. Perhaps since black bronze tools is silly anyways, perhaps make it a non tool metal like they did with rose gold (used to be able to make tools and armor from ride gold)? Still have cassiterite to deal with though... Hmm...
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cause iam unhappy with not using copper tools, because i normally skip copper age completly

Um, was there even a copper age in real life?

As far as I know, bronze was the first tool-metal made because copper was much too soft and malleable and was not suitable tool metal.

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Um, was there even a copper age in real life?As far as I know, bronze was the first tool-metal made because copper was much too soft and malleable and was not suitable tool metal.

Allen, YES.Copper was the first metal tool made in almost every culture around the world. IRL tin is rare to find on the surface. No one had methods to mine before they had metal tools.One method the native Americans used was to build big fires next to cliffs containing copper in order to make the rock sufficiently brittle. They could then smash it away and get the precious precious copper. Which was dry forged into tools such as knife blades and axes.
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If it's really a problem they could just make cast bronze tools need to be finished (work-hardened) on a copper anvil.

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If it's really a problem they could just make cast bronze tools need to be finished (work-hardened) on a copper anvil.

 

Yeah, that's a good idea.

 

So what is everyone's thoughts on the tedium problem? how to avoid? unless you think it's not tedious, in which case please explain

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Agreed that skipping copper is an issue that should be addressed. But you still have to figure out how to deal with cassiterite and black bronze.

 

well, black bronze needs gold and silver and in most worlds i have a shitton of gold, but no silver, so no black bronze XD

and cass is no native ore, so you have to use the shaft oven + copper anvil from my suggestion :)

by the way, the shaft oven could be used to smelt bigger amounts of ores, than the pit kiln.

 

Most of the early (copper, bronze era) ores are Sulphides or Carbonates. The sulphur and carbon are relatively easy to turn into SO2 and CO2 via roasting. Thus the pit kiln.

 

cassiterite is an oxide

sphalerite is an sulfid, but roasting it provides zincoxide, and you cant smelt zincoxide, because it evaporates before smelting. (@ 1200°C)

and without cass or sphalerite, the best bronze alloy materials are out of the way :)

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well, the biggest point of my suggestion was to delay your first bronze tools :P

cause iam unhappy with not using copper tools, because i normally skip copper age completly

What you actually suggesting is to delay metal tools altogether. Out of three copper ores present only one is the actual native metal, meaning by the time you find native copper one can easily find plenty of cassiterite deposits to forge bronze immediately. The actual way to slow player progression even more as you desire is what GunnerX suggested.

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stuff i find shittons of every world i load: native copper and native gold, bismuth, iron ores

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What you actually suggesting is to delay metal tools altogether. Out of three copper ores present only one is the actual native metal, meaning by the time you find native copper one can easily find plenty of cassiterite deposits to forge bronze immediately. The actual way to slow player progression even more as you desire is what GunnerX suggested.

While I agree with the underlying point of your post (that this suggestion adds tedium to every tier for a tiny bit of nitpicking realism and GunnerX's suggestion is the ockhams razor solution) you are forgetting one thing; gold panning now works and yields native copper and gold. Just playing devil's advocate here.Off topic: Glad to see another TFCforums vet that is still present especially an artsy Russian one. Hi Transcen :).
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(that this suggestion adds tedium to every tier for a tiny bit of nitpicking realism and GunnerX's suggestion is the ockhams razor solution)you are forgetting one thing; gold panning now works and yields native copper and gold. Just playing devil's advocate here.

But then if we are taking panning into an account, and considering it yields native copper nugs (haven't played with panning much, I'm still forgetting that's a thing people actually do now; habits), the only thing OP suggestion does is it makes panning even more effective. In my eyes GunnerX's suggestion is then even more viable way to slowing the game down.

 

Then again, I'll always be against slowing progression in general in these ways. If we are dancing around the fact that there's nothing to do once player is progressed up to high tier, padding earlier stages just so they take longer is a terrible approach.

[offtopic]

 

Off topic: Glad to see another TFCforums vet that is still present especially an artsy Russian one. Hi Transcen  :).

 

 

Thanks and hello to you too.

If fact, I'm there (somewhere) almost every day. It's just I'm at this stage when I've seen most suggestions people do now at least once already, so I'm replying less and less frequently. Or maybe you just haven't run into me.

[/offtopic]

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But then if we are taking panning into an account, and considering it yields native copper nugs (haven't played with panning much, I'm still forgetting that's a thing people actually do now; habits), the only thing OP suggestion does is it makes panning even more effective. In my eyes GunnerX's suggestion is then even more viable way to slowing the game down.Then again, I'll always be against slowing progression in general in these ways. If we are dancing around the fact that there's nothing to do once player is progressed up to high tier, padding earlier stages just so they take longer is a terrible approach.[offtopic]

Thanks and hello to you too.If fact, I'm there (somewhere) almost every day. It's just I'm at this stage when I've seen most suggestions people do now at least once already, so I'm replying less and less frequently. Or maybe you just haven't run into me.

[/offtopic]

Yup, I can't play devils advocate any longer, any logical argument I can think of at the moment is debunked by gameplay purposes. Good idea OP, but I don't think it adds anything but tedium :(I think both of us agree with agree with GunnerX's idea Gunner, perhaps you should start a thread for said idea. P.S I will add, I disagree with "there is nothing to do once you reach highest tier" In My Honest Opinion (I.M.H.O) that's when all the building and creativity options start. When you finally feel like you can take on mobs and have all the wood/stone types in large amounts with tools good enough to speedily manipulate said materials. That is when TFC masterpieces are created![offtopic]

Yeah I know what you mean. Do youPlay on any server? I'd love to finally meet you in-game and I'll be on Central European Time from June to August anyways (yay for Spain

:D).

[/offtopic]

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P.S I will add, I disagree with "there is nothing to do once you reach highest tier" In My Honest Opinion (I.M.H.O) that's when all the building and creativity options start. When you finally feel like you can take on mobs and have all the wood/stone types in large amounts with tools good enough to speedily manipulate said materials. That is when TFC masterpieces are created!

While building may be fun (I don't disagree), I remember TFC's counter of sorts to Vanilla MC was that after you get a base, it's just creative mode in essence. That's kind of the situation you're describing after purple steel. 

However, while I do think that things to, well, do after steel other than gun for nickel should be added, I do understand that lots of work is being done on the early game, and it's showing; the early game is great. The early game must be fleshed out before the mid/end game is.

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While building may be fun (I don't disagree), I remember TFC's counter of sorts to Vanilla MC was that after you get a base, it's just creative mode in essence. That's kind of the situation you're describing after purple steel. However, while I do think that things to, well, do after steel other than gun for nickel should be added, I do understand that lots of work is being done on the early game, and it's showing; the early game is great. The early game must be fleshed out before the mid/end game is.

If you LURKED MOAR!!! (The irony ;)) You'd know that steam power for endgame content is already almost completely planned out. However as you said, beginning and mid game must be first, and Bioxx, Dunk, and Kitty (yes you count hun, good wiki establishes player base (pb), PB=more support and encouragement to the coders. Plus more encouragement sometimes translates directly to more Donations) are doing a mind bogglingly good job. All you have to do to know how high quality TFC is is look at our Rooster mob, or the upcoming Bear redesign, ore (Punny!) the sheer number of stone, tree, and soil blocks.
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If you LURKED MOAR!!! (The irony ;)) You'd know that steam power for endgame content is already almost completely planned out.

It actually is not. Dunk was playing with the idea and made some blocks, but from the IRC conversation with Bioxx, I can say it's still way up in the air.

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It actually is not. Dunk was playing with the idea and made some blocks, but from the IRC conversation with Bioxx, I can say it's still way up in the air.

This is why included the word "almost" so my statement was not an absoloute. Besides I mostly just said that to give Kimmble a hard time. It's a joke from 2012. :)

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i reworked the initial post and added iron related stuff.

and to adress tedium:

the shaft oven should increase the metal output, because it can smelt more stuff at the same time and the metal pieces make it easyer to create alloys.

and to the iron change: so you cant loose your blooms by accident anymore (or any iron by that matter) because the forge wont get hot enough to smelt them anyways.

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Well i know a tiny bit of history and iron needs to be heated than cooled many times (Tempered) to make it hard. In tfc all you do is refine it to an ingot maybe when its an ingot make it soft iron then put it in a barrel with near liquid heat but still solid and put it in a barrel of water, the heat it up again than work it than it will give you iron iron

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