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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Dark_Demon

TFC is missing a goal

121 posts in this topic

Hello all!

I'm new to this mod, and I'm enjoying it very much.

 

One thing really bothers me about it though, and it's the lack of a goal.

Survival minecraft has the ender dragon as a goal for survival challenges.

TFC has nothing like that.

After building red & blue steel armor and tools, what is there left to do?

What is there to aim for?

And if my goal is to make red & blue steel armor and tools,

what will I ever use a red steel bucket for (by the time I have it, I finished the challenge)?

I'm not really good at the creative side of minecraft, I like survival with a goal at the end.

And as a strictly survival mod, the lack of a goal seems really strange.

 

Please no one take this the wrong way, I love the mod, and I'm trying to share my thoughts and (just maybe) improve it.

 

Yours,

Dark_Demon

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You know that the end is pretty new stuff compared to other content in vanilla minecraft right?

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I kind of agree, but not with your comparison.

 

The end and the dragon are nothing but a "artificial" goal to make you feel like anything had any purpose when it really didn't. You achieve no more from it than you do from setting artificial goals for yourself.

What I mean by this is killing the ender dragon doesn't unlock anything, doesn't prevent anything, doesn't help anything.. doesn't do.. anything. It was just there because it could be and it makes you feel like there is more content.

I would like TFC to eventually have an end goal, but I'd prefer it be something with actual meaning not "KILL THE DRAGON" why? "CUZ DRAGON"

 

 

You know that the end is pretty new stuff compared to other content in vanilla minecraft right?

 

Wasn't the End released back in 2012? Just because Mojang has gotten slow about updates I wouldn't really consider that new.

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Survival minecraft has the ender dragon as a goal for survival challenges.

What? No. Normal Minecraft doesn't have a goal.

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What? No. Normal Minecraft doesn't have a goal.

 

The word "challenge" you quoted says it all.

When people start hardcore challenges, what is the goal at the end?

When I play a survival mod, I want to have something to try and achieve.

Something to justify everything I'm doing, even if there is no real reason other then my fun.

 

I kind of agree, but not with your comparison.

 

The end and the dragon are nothing but a "artificial" goal to make you feel like anything had any purpose when it really didn't. You achieve no more from it than you do from setting artificial goals for yourself.

What I mean by this is killing the ender dragon doesn't unlock anything, doesn't prevent anything, doesn't help anything.. doesn't do.. anything. It was just there because it could be and it makes you feel like there is more content.

I would like TFC to eventually have an end goal, but I'd prefer it be something with actual meaning not "KILL THE DRAGON" why? "CUZ DRAGON"

 

 
 

 

Wasn't the End released back in 2012? Just because Mojang has gotten slow about updates I wouldn't really consider that new.

 

The point of a goal is to justify everything else, it just makes you feel like you achieved something big.

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Hey this is minecraft, you have no real goals.

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I was thinking about this kind of stuff earlier today and I remember hearing Kitty saying stuff about earthquakes and volcanoes:

If an area is seismically active, there will be fissures, hot springs, lava pools on the surface, and lava oceans down near bedrock. You can check if an area is seismically active by opening up the F3 menu and checking the Stability value. If it is 0, the area has no activity. Eventually this system may be expanded to include things such as earth quakes, or volcanoes.

Now to me, that's somewhat equivalent to having a 'goal'. Since the 'goal' of TFC is to survive, making the ground a more hostile place makes it more of a goal just to survive.
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One thing really bothers me about it though, and it's the lack of a goal.

Survival minecraft has the ender dragon as a goal for survival challenges.

TFC has nothing like that.

After building red & blue steel armor and tools, what is there left to do?

What is there to aim for?

Same thing with vanilla minecraft

After you kill the enderdragon, what do you do in vanilla minecraft?

 what is there left to do?
What is there to aim for?
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The problem is not the goal itself. Problem is, when in vanilla, if you played out to the End, you can install mods with regular ways. TFC-compatible mods are rare, they can't be installed by simple copying, you may need to set up properly.

So what will you do after you've reached the blue and red steel? Can you make machines? Can you make some magic? Can you reach the Moon?

One of my mate said: "Standing proudly in iron armor, next to my stone house is not my dream of life." TFC gives the difficulty, but it doesn't show much in advance.

That's the problem as I understand.

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No matter if you call it a goal, challenge, objective, I can somewhat agree that I'd like more end-game content. While TFC does one thing far better than vanilla game - actually provides one with (mostly early-game) challenges and offers plenty of goals for the sake of survival that one can actually put some work into (creating a decent house and self-sustainable stead with crops as well as workshop allowing processing of colored steel, improving the standard of living from just staying alive to actually being local power) at some point it suffers from the core game's problem - there's nothing after one finishes it all.

By the time one acquires colored steel equipment, there's simply no point of going anywhere where you'd need it. No new features awaiting the player, not much gameplay left that'd encourage one to enjoy what was created, nothing that would give one a reason to finish that armor set. In vanilla, there was at least the End - I do know that there are people who complain about it, but for me it was that one last worthwhile thing I could do, a goal OP speaks about - I could say that I've done everything I wanted and now I am ready to prove that by tackling the final obstacle in 'finishing' the game (plus, get a quite interesting epilogue speech). It's entertaining feature that completes the feeling of getting there, the last final battle.

Sure, I don't expect exactly the same things of TFC. But I'd like certain events that'd be something to evaluate and validate the work and it's fruits received so far. A construction or item that is plain amusing or useful, but right after acquiring it, forces a month of cold and darkness. Place where one can get nifty blocks and really useful ingredients for items that cannot be found elsewhere, which is in dangerous lands, constantly guarded (maybe even a pocket dimension in it's own regard).

Something making player glad that they've made this big farm and sturdy house or this powerful sword and a nifty suit of armor. An optional closure. If only to get some nice memories just before retrying the game instead of doing it simply because earlier world and everything player made in it became boring.

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I don't think TFC should have something 'endgame'

Even at the very end of technology, you should still consider hostiles a threat, not a annoying punching bag.

Even with every tool and metal at your disposal, surviving should be a challenge, and exploring should yield boons and be a changing, but rewarding thing to do, and not a sightseeing trip to while away the hours

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Even with every tool and metal at your disposal, surviving should be a challenge

That, I am afraid, will never work. The core of the game and majority of it's features revolve around not just surviving, but carving oneself nice play to grow and develop. With said growth and development, however, should and do come boons and those in turn, the way boons universally do, decrease the difficulty and the challenge - again, the way it should be, I'd say.Surviving being the whole game would probably turn people away - they want to survive and they want to be rewarded for it by being able to do much more than just keep on struggling for survival. Otherwise, it would mean that the whole game is about failing and dying, sooner or later, no matter what.The problem with how people saw the End is exactly the fact that they saw it as The End. However, while it offered closure - a thing appreciated by some - it never really ended the game. One could get back after defeating the dragon or one could simply not go there in the first place, it was completely optional. As long as such kind of things won't be compulsory, I'd enjoy them in TFC (though I'd make them, yes, slightly less heroic fantasy-themed). They won't be the end for anyone who doesn't want to see them that way, they will be just adventures, goals and challenges for the willing to accept them.As for the rest of that line:

Even with every tool and metal at your disposal (...) exploring should yield boons and be a changing, but rewarding thing to do, and not a sightseeing trip to while away the hours

That what this thread is about. Asking for late-game content that would make creation of higher tier weapons and constructing great facilities have a point beside appealing to one's sense of aesthetics, making player use them out of boredom or so the effort put in creating them won't be wasted.
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Surviving being the whole game would probably turn people away - they want to survive and they want to be rewarded for it by being able to do much more than just keep on struggling for survival. Otherwise, it would mean that the whole game is about failing and dying, sooner or later, no matter what.

That's not what I meant.

I don't want to have to struggle for every day of survival, just like you, but I don't want to just go around with no fear of anything because nothing can kill me.

Even with the highest-tech gear, being caught away from home by a hoard of undead should be a troubling thing, not a annoying thing that will give you no problem whatsoever.

I don't mean challenge as in difficult, just challenge as in not ridiculously easy.

 

 

That what this thread is about. Asking for late-game content that would make creation of higher tier weapons and constructing great facilities have a point beside appealing to one's sense of aesthetics, making player use them out of boredom or so the effort put in creating them won't be wasted.

No, you misunderstood.

I didn't mean for there to be late-game stuff to find via exploring.

I meant that exploring should yield goods that help you survive, may it be crops or animals or wood or ore, and the threat of mobs should make it a challenge.

Simple as that

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Hey this is minecraft, you have no real goals.

 

this is what EVERYONE forgets. MC is a sandbox. The point of a sandbox, is there's no point! The End and Enderdragon was worst thing ever (and that's saying a lot) added to MC because it made MC not a true sandbox. so no, I disagree with the OP. Endgame content like steampower? Sure. A end goal? No way! If you're bored then do what you're supposed to do in sandboxes, build and create. Or start a new world. :)

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You set your own goals with the tools available. Achievements are only there to guide you to understand the game.

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-post-

Alright, thanks for clarification. Good we agree. Though in all sincerity, I don't see why there shouldn't be all kinds of late-game stuff, be it creations or stuff to be found through exploring.

this is what EVERYONE forgets. MC is a sandbox. The point of a sandbox, is there's no point!

This is what you possibly forget. Really pure sandbox experience is meant to be delivered through creative mode but survival aspect, with all it's limitations, is to be about survival and development, that's the point and the goal. It simply builds on the mechanics utilized in the creative mode. Otherwise there would be no progression curve and we'd just spawn with all the tools, blocks and items necessary to do everything, not to mention a need to do everything so (eat, heal, whatever) to not limit the freedom which for all practical purposes would be the creative mode.In fact, many games nowadays people call 'sandbox' aren't completely sandbox, as that genre, in it's pure form, lacks potential for tasks, plans for the gameplay and cannot function with a story/plot if it's meant to be anything but background fluff and actually affects the gameplay.TFC goes even further than this and while there are no official objectives, there are certain tasks that have to be performed by nearly everyone to survive and develop (build a fire, gather edibles, make a camp). Sorry, either you really want a sandbox and then you cannot make gameplay adhere to certain themes and tasks or you make one where survival is a goal required of player, with suitable challenges.

The End and Enderdragon was worst thing ever (and that's saying a lot) added to MC because it made MC not a true sandbox.

I must say I always found people complaining about this part of the gameplay weird. They are going round and round, bemoaning one element, in survival mode which already intentionally makes the game stop being just a sandbox. An optional element they can straight away ignore, that gives no real benefits of practical value that cannot be found elsewhere and basically will appeal only to those who WANT goals, while leaving all other players to their devices and with no big impact on gameplay of anyone not wanting to be involved.At some point it often starts to look like complaining about how people dare to play the game any other way and do any other thing than what the opponents of the idea tell them to (which is ironic - wasn't it all about the freedom; isn't that hypocrisy?), even when they do it exactly the way developer intended for them. Rather unfair, I'd say.
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Second post because apparently having it all in one was simply too much for this forum to handle. Someone should adjust allowed post size.

Endgame content like steampower? Sure. A end goal? No way!

Speaking of steampower, I do hope it will be simple enough to avoid automatization and farms of anything, otherwise the whole survival and thus, most of the point of the game will be completely wasted when one will get to that point. But that's beside the topic and something effects of we remain to see.Anyway, right now you go into semantics. I'd like to request for you to spend a few minutes reading this thread - I am sure you'll be able to notice that the goal in this case means the one to be offered to and chosen by a player based on said endgame content. The same way one can say that building any steam-powered device would be a late-game goal, or finding secrets, treasures and the monster guarding them from the Dunk's quote you found so enticing. It's still nothing you have to do, not a goal enforced by a game but a potential goal one can undertake, with possibility for a challenge or closure for those who want to play but do not want to create a new world just to start over again like you suggest. Far less of a 'goal' in the way you regard the term than a need to, for example, mine some metal or craft a saw to further the gameplay.I understand that OP may be considered to form this thought not as well as it could have been formed but I'd reckon by now the 'goal' part is explained.
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IMHO I think that an open goal is better. What is an open goal? Well, basically it is a "always having something to do" goal. For example, with the new spawning thing where all zombies and similar are going to be underground one end would be exploration. Spawning dungeons underground (or a "infinite tower" kind of building in the surface, for example) that can give you trophies (useless items) when you reach the room with the chest. A second dimension that give you a lot of terrain to explore and new mechanics and mobs to fight. I guess that part of this open goal could be more focused to fighting and exploring since you want to have an use to your shiny red steel armour and blue steel sword. It might include some bosses with weird "abilities" like a "green bear" that, when die it become a "green big spider" and later a "green dragon" to end with his final form, a small and cute "green slime"...  :blink:

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But once you defeat the dragon, the end poem is amazing. Notch is truly a great philosopher too. So this addition can't be the worst thing ever. :D

 

EDIT: correction, Julian Gough wrote the end poem.

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Alright, thanks for clarification. Good we agree. Though in all sincerity, I don't see why there shouldn't be all kinds of late-game stuff, be it creations or stuff to be found through exploring.This is what you possibly forget. Really pure sandbox experience is meant to be delivered through creative mode but survival aspect, with all it's limitations, is to be about survival and development, that's the point and the goal. It simply builds on the mechanics utilized in the creative mode. Otherwise there would be no progression curve and we'd just spawn with all the tools, blocks and items necessary to do everything, not to mention a need to do everything so (eat, heal, whatever) to not limit the freedom which for all practical purposes would be the creative mode.In fact, many games nowadays people call 'sandbox' aren't completely sandbox, as that genre, in it's pure form, lacks potential for tasks, plans for the gameplay and cannot function with a story/plot if it's meant to be anything but background fluff and actually affects the gameplay.TFC goes even further than this and while there are no official objectives, there are certain tasks that have to be performed by nearly everyone to survive and develop (build a fire, gather edibles, make a camp). Sorry, either you really want a sandbox and then you cannot make gameplay adhere to certain themes and tasks or you make one where survival is a goal required of player, with suitable challenges.I must say I always found people complaining about this part of the gameplay weird. They are going round and round, bemoaning one element, in survival mode which already intentionally makes the game stop being just a sandbox. An optional element they can straight away ignore, that gives no real benefits of practical value that cannot be found elsewhere and basically will appeal only to those who WANT goals, while leaving all other players to their devices and with no big impact on gameplay of anyone not wanting to be involved.At some point it often starts to look like complaining about how people dare to play the game any other way and do any other thing than what the opponents of the idea tell them to (which is ironic - wasn't it all about the freedom; isn't that hypocrisy?), even when they do it exactly the way developer intended for them. Rather unfair, I'd say.

You have converted me, that was an exceptionally well thought out arguement. GG.

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Please dont blame me, i just didnt read whole the topic, but i just like the goal idea and want to share my suggestions about this idea.

 

I was thinking about some "ancient structures" - it can be some kind of ancient ruins or labirinth or just tunnels made from hard destructable material, and contain lots of mobs and some relics. So player will need a good stuff(probably top armors and weapons, enough food and possible some keys to explore those structures to collect some relics which could be useless.

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Speaking of steampower, I do hope it will be simple enough to avoid automatization and farms of anything, otherwise the whole survival and thus, most of the point of the game will be completely wasted when one will get to that point. But that's beside the topic and something effects of we remain to see.Anyway, right now you go into semantics. I'd like to request for you to spend a few minutes reading this thread - I am sure you'll be able to notice that the goal in this case means the one to be offered to and chosen by a player based on said endgame content. The same way one can say that building any steam-powered device would be a late-game goal, or finding secrets, treasures and the monster guarding them from the Dunk's quote you found so enticing. It's still nothing you have to do, not a goal enforced by a game but a potential goal one can undertake, with possibility for a challenge or closure for those who want to play but do not want to create a new world just to start over again like you suggest. Far less of a 'goal' in the way you regard the term than a need to, for example, mine some metal or craft a saw to further the gameplay.

 

For 'steam power' I'd like things like moving water without buckets(because 1) aqueducts, and 2)buckets... who needs em? and 3) I don't like steel buckets)

Or a say, 3x2 gate that lowers and closes with steam power, a grain mill so we don't have to sit around right-clicking that handle for hours... stuff like that.

Though I like mechanical power better then steam.

 

And also, in a sandbox(well, really semi-sandbox) game, there can never be a 'end goal' because it can't end. I mean, what are you going to do, forculy delete the world when the so-called 'endgame goal' has been achieved? Heck, for a lot of players, killing the enderdragon was a minor side trip. A simple 'get loads of exp, get a nice new block, gain bragging rights' then right back to building, exploring, and doing what they where doing before the dragon egg.

 

So yea, I agree saying 'no endgame goal' is pretty redundant as it is impossible to have a end-game goal.

Alright, thanks for clarification. Good we agree. Though in all sincerity, I don't see why there shouldn't be all kinds of late-game stuff, be it creations or stuff to be found through exploring.

I don't care about having tons of late-game stuff as long as it doesn't 
1: make the start and mid game stuff useless, resulting in people rushing everything to just get the late-game content
and
2: is not op.

Please dont blame me, i just didnt read whole the topic, but i just like the goal idea and want to share my suggestions about this idea.

 

I was thinking about some "ancient structures" - it can be some kind of ancient ruins or labirinth or just tunnels made from hard destructable material, and contain lots of mobs and some relics. So player will need a good stuff(probably top armors and weapons, enough food and possible some keys to explore those structures to collect some relics which could be useless.

Well, for one, you get something to use your late-game super tools on, and a nice side-trip to earn you bragging rights and exp(and a possible mob-farm).

I like it.

Though, I don't like the labyrinth bit. I hate mazes in minecraft because it gives me a headache, a motion-sickness-y feel, and some more when I'm trying to go through mazes in minecraft.

I'm fine with roomy places like a strong hold, but a maze with small, narrow corridors and  twists and turns? No, just no.

But otherwise, I like the idea

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For survival to remain interesting at higher tiers, there have to be more difficult challenges.

 

Maybe longitude could be used for increasing difficulty. Perhaps nickel (for black steel) or other higher tier ingredients just aren't found around longitude 0 so you have to go exploring east or west into more dangerous areas to find them. Increasing longitude could also provide new foods and animals, or even ingredients for potions and enchantments (if you want to go that route).

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Potential problem I see with making difficulty depend on longitude is introduction of lack of fairness on bigger multiplayer servers where there are many players who simply have to spread all over the land to get their own place, if they are unwilling to live in a city.

 

I do agree with addition of more difficult challenges (in case someone wasn't sure after reading my earlier post) but I'd rather do it through rather uniformally spread locations, with possible ties to a biome (not unlike vanilla Minecraft temples, pyramids and so on), reintroduction of pocket/alternate dimensions or creating 'semi-biomes' of somewhat different mechanics (part of the otherwise-regular forest, where sturdy trees that cannot be cut down with axe weaker than a steel one and are resistant to fire cover the skies, where permanently aggresive spiders spawn and undead roam but also treasures are strewn and unique plants grow).

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For survival to remain interesting at higher tiers, there have to be more difficult challenges.

 

Maybe longitude could be used for increasing difficulty. Perhaps nickel (for black steel) or other higher tier ingredients just aren't found around longitude 0 so you have to go exploring east or west into more dangerous areas to find them. Increasing longitude could also provide new foods and animals, or even ingredients for potions and enchantments (if you want to go that route).

 

Potential problem I see with making difficulty depend on longitude is introduction of lack of fairness on bigger multiplayer servers where there are many players who simply have to spread all over the land to get their own place, if they are unwilling to live in a city.

How about having rare biomes such as volcanoes, high mountain ranges, dense jungles, glaciers, etc that have ores not found anywhere else, unique crops and animals, etc.

This means that we can go exploring do 'dangerous' places, yet still be able to spread out or play in a nomadic-style without having to avoid entire altitudes

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