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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Dark_Demon

TFC is missing a goal

121 posts in this topic

How about having rare biomes such as volcanoes, high mountain ranges, dense jungles, glaciers, etc that have ores not found anywhere else, unique crops and animals, etc.This means that we can go exploring do 'dangerous' places, yet still be able to spread out or play in a nomadic-style without having to avoid entire altitudes

That's kind of thing I had in mind before, as shown a few posts up: 

or creating 'semi-biomes' of somewhat different mechanics (part of the otherwise-regular forest, where sturdy trees that cannot be cut down with axe weaker than a steel one and are resistant to fire cover the skies, where permanently aggresive spiders spawn and undead roam but also treasures are strewn and unique plants grow).

Making it not as much whole altitude/longitude/latitude as simple area in the world, a zone of 'there be dragons'. Places of interests, not just sources of monsters or loot. Like I wrote in a different thread closely (for me) - linked to this one: 

I liked the temples/pyramids I could find in vanilla game. Not even for rewards - the first few times the structures themselves, something to explore that wasn't simply another bunch of trees or a hill was a nice breath of fresh air.I'd like more of those to be in the game and not even as ruins - caves where some rare animals or even simply bears would live, suspicious parts of the forests where weird types of trees block the sun and both monsters and treasures lie, tombs, crystal caverns with unique, tiny ecosystems, simple left-overs of civilisation or monuments - little in terms of material wealth but a landmark for the curious to behold - resist passage of time.

Something to explore, enjoy, wonder about is what I'd like to see when survival is not a concern. I find it a far better 'goal' for the late-game than hoarding edibles or making higher-tier metal weapons for visiting places we have not much of a point to visit (except to get more of those high-tier resources - pointless, vicious cycle).But yeah, I'd like something like that. Local areas rather than big parts of the whole world that may be special (in both good and bad ways - barren earth where no matter what, nothing will grow, for example) and also aren't in all cases a chance for gain or a danger to the player.
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The problem here is essentially the one that the human race may one day face.  At some point you become technologically dominant enough that you essentially remove all risk from the equation of living.  In a very real sense, that is the goal of all survival situations...to reach the point where surviving is a non-issue.  Unfortunately for survival based games, it means that the game ceases being interesting at this point since the entire draw of the game-play is the seeking of that point.  So, really there is a goal...freedom from having to worry about survival.  Depending on how adventurous you are, you can attain this goal at different points in the game.  If you create an impregnable farming fortress such that you never need leave, then really, you can attain this goal in the bronze age.  At that point, you might shift the essential goal to exploring all the content of the game.  Once that becomes the goal, there is still an endpoint as determined by the limitations of content.  This is a basic existential issue.  We haven't solved it as a species in our general everyday lives, so I'm guessing that solving in TFC is probably not going to happen.  Essentially, the OP is recognizing, obliquely, that meeting one's goals is a generally hollow experience, especially when there are no new goals to redirect oneself towards.  My recommendation:  play another game for a year, and come back to new content.  

 

This is essentially the issue I run into whenever I finish a series of novels.  There's the momentary high of achieving my goal of following these characters to their end, and the realization of the journey, followed by the let-down of 'what next'.  I start another series, and be glad that there aren't enough seconds in my short life to read all the good books.  The same with games...I could live 10 lives before I could even play all the games I own to true completion.  When one game's goal grows stale, I move on and come back to it later when it calls me.  Anyway...that's my take on the idea of goals in TFC.

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The problem here is essentially the one that the human race may one day face.  At some point you become technologically dominant enough that you essentially remove all risk from the equation of living. 

 

That is true but at some extend. In a game like this you have to face two situations, one is that you become a godly being with all that technology or face challenges that, no matter how well prepared you are, you are prone to an imminent death. Just for the sake of an example, think of an infinite tower with enemies so strong that even with red/blue steel armors and swords if you make two or three mistakes, you are dead. How many floors can you clear before being another ghost in that tower? It is true that nobody will adventure to such dangerous place without a proper treasure, something with a value in game that worth all the effort and preparation. That is a goal (one of many). Why do you think that in our era, with a technology so advance that our survival instinct are so damned that a deer (or a chicken) is harder to hunt than a human, especially one of those creatures that walk in the street while texting, but at the same time, there are people that look for live threatening situations, like free fall, bungee jump and so on? That does not make sense from the survival viewpoint and yet, they are doing it. 

 

 

 My recommendation:  play another game for a year, and come back to new content.  

 

That won't solve the problem, that just divert it. Well, no game would ever be fresh forever, but there are situations (in a "sandbox" environment) where you can face countless of challenges that would test your steel and keep it fresh for long time. And yes, in a game where you can make armors it almost foolish not looking for fights (why do you need them if you cannot face dangers?). Multiple dimensions, "infinite" towers, lost temples scattered on the world, in a multiplayer server wars can be organized (it would be cool in a sense), boss fights. trips around the world, hunting the rarest beast (Dragons, unicorns, anyone? We have Zombies and walking skeletons, if you dare to say that Dragons don't have place in TFC think twice), etc. If those ideas can be implemented, TFC would have so many goals that you can play much longer and actively seeking to reach red/blue steel age. 

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I think the argument made here is that the treasure offered in this theoretical tower would have to be something which made you powerful enough to discount some of the threats of that same tower, or no one would bother.  Hence you get into the cycle of technological progression again, which always has a limit, at the point that the only threat left is something which you cannot defend against or kill regardless of technology, at which point the goal once again collapses.  Creating further goals is no less a diversion than playing another game.  They are both diverting you from recognizing the general futility of being goal-oriented instead of being-oriented.  We could talk psychology and anthropology if you'd like, and examine how cultures which are goal focused react to stress and blah blah blah.  The simple truth is that all games are finite, and thus have finite goals.  The most open-ended games rely on the player to create their own goals rather than react to the necessarily more limited ones which the programmers were able to create.  

 

All your ideas are cool, but they are no less diversions that anything else.  Playing games is a diversion.  We use this medium to divert our attention from other aspects of living.  There is no way to solve the problem of being a finite being with an infinite imagination.  Divert yourself with games if you're like me and relatively lazy and like to think a lot, or divert yourself with jumping off of buildings if you enjoy adrenal depletion and the rush of potential death.  Your goal is to find a way to make TFC more suitable for longer play.  That's not my goal.  I have lots of games, so I'm not so bothered with TFC having endless content.  If it did, that would just discourage me from playing some of my other games, which all have their own charm.  Even within the context of Minecraft, there are other mods.  Once you've reached the apex of TFC, it is a simple act to load up a new world with post-TFC technology and bridge the gap with your imagination.

 

As for humans doing stuff like bungee jumping...yeah, we reached the point at which we exited the food chain a long time ago.  Now our survival is more related to the artificial restriction of imaginary money as managed by oligarchical banking institutions.  If our ecological effects continue as they are, increased refugeeism and economic collapse will make survival a very real issue for 80% or so of the current 40% of people on the planet for whom it's not a big issue.  Obviously I made those numbers up...here's some real ones if you're interested:  http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats

 

Just some perspective.  Don't let it harsh your day.

 

I guess I wouldn't use people who pay to jump off bridges as the litmus test for normal human behavior, especially considering that only those in exceptional circumstances can usually afford the time and money to engage in those activities.

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I think the argument made here is that the treasure offered in this theoretical tower would have to be something which made you powerful enough to discount some of the threats of that same tower, or no one would bother. Hence you get into the cycle of technological progression again

Um, you know the enderdragon? that big boss mob that gave a absolutely useless and ridiculously hard-to-carry-around item as you risk death to kill it?

Well, people risked hardcore worlds that they put hours, even months of work into to kill that dragon and get that useless egg.

And did having the egg make you powerful enough to beat another enderdragon or a wither or whatever with ease?

 

No, but people did it anyways. Get my point?

 

I would risk my (in-game) life, exp, and colored steel armor to beat that tower, even if I get nothing from it, just to say I did.

It doesn't have to be a "Kill monster 1 to get Item A that can kill monster 2 so you can get item B that can kill monster 3 so you can get item C...."

It could be a simply "Kill monster 1 to get item A to show off and let people know you can kill a monster 1."

 

 

But lets just say, for the sake of things, that the 'unbeatable tower' holds ingots of metal called 'mithril'.

And let's say than on this unbeatable tower lives monsters clad in mithril armor wielding mithril weapons.

If we gain mithril from the unbeatable tower, what happens?

The only change I see is that we are now on-par with the guards of the tower and can attack more towers for more mithril.

 

Does this put us at the point of "something which you cannot defend against or kill regardless of technology"?

No. Because it doesn't have to be "Got the end-game stuff? go have a massacre" or "Got the end-game stuff? Sorry, but it's useless against that thing. Have fun dying".

Why can't we have a opponent that is roughly at the same level as us?

Will it be something that we cannot defend against? No, we can best it if we try.

Will it be something we can simply go around slaughtering? No, because it can beat us if we are not careful.

 

Seem like a pretty good compromise to me.

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Your goal is to find a way to make TFC more suitable for longer play.  That's not my goal.  I have lots of games, so I'm not so bothered with TFC having endless content.  If it did, that would just discourage me from playing some of my other games, which all have their own charm. 

Naaa, I'm not saying that that is my goal, it is just that I like the idea of the OP in the sense of TFC having a goal (o multiple goals) after reaching red/blue steel. You know, TFC, as far as I know, isn't a finished game/mod, so it is now when we can say something to make it more appealing for the rest of us (obviously there are people that don't share the same views and that is fine, hence, we might go against the ideas of the creators of this mod). Endless content? not even WoW that have been in existence for several years have endless content, and people that play WoW play other games as well (as I do and as you do). Some people find themselves attracted to a goal, to kill that dragon, that big bad demon with Biblical name, why does TFC shouldn't have something like that? Well, maybe a demon might be too crazy, but to do something after reaching the last tier of metals. That is the point of the OP. 

 

In regards to the rest of your post, AllenWL gave some good answers.

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I get your point Allen, but it should be noted that I have never beaten, nor tried to beat, the Ender Dragon, for exactly the reasons you stated.

 

If you want more challenge, you could always do a no-weapon, no-armor run.

 

I'm not opposed to adding more content, in any way shape or form.  I'm just saying that doing so is but a patch on what is being perceived as a problem.  It doesn't solve anything.  Unless the devs created some very adaptive code, there would always be a limit on the content, a point at which you've done all that can be done within the context of the current iteration.  I read the OP's comment as a basic dissatisfaction with the limitations of the game, and my natural response to that kind of thing is to point out to the mind that there are always limitations, and that being dissatisfied with limitations is a basic aspect of existence.  That's all.  Regarding the assertion of the arms-race technological cycle...that's the rational end point, and the probably end point for the majority of users.  Of course there are people who will do a thing just because it exists to be done...those who climb mountains because they are there, but I think the majority of people are motivated by self-interest, and will only do that which is innately enjoyable or which they perceive gets them 'ahead'.  Do some people have strange ideas about what gets them 'ahead' in life?  Of course.  Some people perceive getting a new car which does nothing particularly better or more interesting than their last car, an achievement.  Heck, a lot of games play off this dubious practice of ascribing the concept of achievement to that which does not, in any rational way, warrant it.  Is that bad?  I don't know.  Is that rational?  No.  

 

If there was more content in TFC, I'd probably enjoy it, assuming the content was enjoyable.  I know some people would grind at a task in the game regardless of enjoyment, just for the challenge.  I save that kind of energy for those things in my life where the grind is necessary to achieve some practical and necessary goal (like learning German now that I live in Germany).  

 

So, I get it.  Some people want a grandiose goal to attain to in TFC.  Well, the devs will add it or not.  In the meantime, there are plenty of games which are designed around that exact desire and experience, so I can't imagine that the devs are going to be in that big of a rush to make this one of them.  TFC has a very thoughtful feel to it.  It feels much more like a survival simulation that a goal-oriented game, and I'd be surprised if this was due to anything other than intent on the part of the devs.

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I'm just saying that doing so is but a patch on what is being perceived as a problem. It doesn't solve anything. Unless the devs created some very adaptive code, there would always be a limit on the content, a point at which you've done all that can be done within the context of the current iteration.

If you'll pardon butting in, I'd suspect that this matter should be looked at from different angle. We do not expect to make ever-green game that will keep single playthrough infinite and infinitely interesting only through addition of pre-programmed content. However, even a patch extending the gameplay and offering more fun is simply that - fun. Through threads and discussions like this we do not attempt to alleviate problems and limitations of game design - we simply suggest content that we'd like to see and make them game more enjoyable, while taking care of minor problem of certain equipment advancements/tiers serving little purpose over their predecessors, because of insufficient amount of potential situations where such items would be really required, rather than additional character empowerment for the hell of it.It may not be a permanent solution to 'lacking worthwhile things to do late-game' but is still an improvement and I strongly disagree with implication in the second sentence - namely that it's of little benefit by not solving any big design problems. Getting into analysis of human compulsions and how they are relevant to both challenges IRL and in-game doesn't get us anywhere after we simply establish what is required by people and whether it's a decent addition increasing the satisfaction derived from the game.I am very ambivalent toward the idea of grandiose goals. My ideas of late game content also differ from 'towers of strong monsters' (enough that at times it may be considered simply content for the sake of enrichment of game's worl, no matter at which stage of technological advancement player's character is). In the context of the big part of the idea, however, the 'survival simulation' mdtexeira mentions only supports the need for goals/stuff-to-do - after all, survival is a goal, composed of lesser objectives.I wouldn't want game to enforce additional goals, hell, I wouldn't want it to even encourage them too strongly. But they should be viable choices which allow additional paths of development and new experiences - with challenges serving not making the game very challenging in itself, but balancing aforementioned boons and making them actual reward bringing satisfaction one has to work for, rather than some cache of loot.It occurs to me that as the discussion progresses, people start to move away from the basic idea this thread was to be - as far as I can assume - about, forgetting the reasons for it as well and settling on contending minor points, making the whole thing spiral out of control.
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It feels much more like a survival simulation that a goal-oriented game, and I'd be surprised if this was due to anything other than intent on the part of the devs.

 

I do not know how the devs tackle this topic (I think Kittychanley hates me because I've said this several times, lol), but IMHO TFC is not a "survival simulation", or in another sense, it is a "life simulation". The survival aspect of TFC ends in the moment that you can farm food all year around. The only moment you were pressed to make survival actions is at the beginning where you have to look for a shelter, food and water (the classical survival situation). After that point TFC becomes an upgrade and more realistic version of Harvest Moon, without the chicks and townies (or that the townies are mean zombies that want your flesh). In that aspect TFC it is an sand box game that, as Visitor said in the post above mine, it has reached the point where we have the tools but we don't have a reason to use them, a goal, a monster powerful enough to truly test our steel (in a sense).

 

The thing is, since it is a sand box game, it needs a lot of different goals simple because people wants different things and to keep the sand box nature as true as possible. Some people like to stay in a calm and nice farm, feed the chickens, farm the land and have a simple life in a lodge cabin in the forest. Others like the exploration part of MC, discover ancient ruins, new villages, resources and live the life of those merchants that always have something exotic to sell. There are those fearless warriors that are bored of feeding the cows and want to slay a big bad Dragon to show off or to live the life of a mercenary. Those are goals, goals to pursue and goals that need to be developed since some of them are not present (or are too easy). Multiple dimensions would feed the anxious player that love to explore the world (or worlds), he might hire one or two mercenaries to be safe in an unknown world. Infinite towers would make the gladiator type happy but those towers need to be found and it is here where the explorer comes handy. The Indiana Johns' type need some temples and lost villages here and there to be happy. And those, per-se, are goals. To become a great explorer you need horses, maps, ink, preserved food and water, an armor and weapons might be optional or to be safe from bandits and/or wild animals. The mercenary type needs a lot of combat oriented tools and the best armor and weapon he/she can find, deadly poisons, trap knowledge, and fighting skills. It is not that I want infinite tower, multiple dimensions, etc because it will be the source of infinite mobs and fights, but more oriented to a mixture of game-plays and goals. 

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I do not know how the devs tackle this topic (I think Kittychanley hates me because I've said this several times, lol), but IMHO TFC is not a "survival simulation", or in another sense, it is a "life simulation". The survival aspect of TFC ends in the moment that you can farm food all year around. The only moment you were pressed to make survival actions is at the beginning where you have to look for a shelter, food and water (the classical survival situation). After that point TFC becomes an upgrade and more realistic version of Harvest Moon, without the chicks and townies (or that the townies are mean zombies that want your flesh). In that aspect TFC it is an sand box game that, as Visitor said in the post above mine, it has reached the point where we have the tools but we don't have a reason to use them, a goal, a monster powerful enough to truly test our steel (in a sense).

 

The thing is, since it is a sand box game, it needs a lot of different goals simple because people wants different things and to keep the sand box nature as true as possible. Some people like to stay in a calm and nice farm, feed the chickens, farm the land and have a simple life in a lodge cabin in the forest. Others like the exploration part of MC, discover ancient ruins, new villages, resources and live the life of those merchants that always have something exotic to sell. There are those fearless warriors that are bored of feeding the cows and want to slay a big bad Dragon to show off or to live the life of a mercenary. Those are goals, goals to pursue and goals that need to be developed since some of them are not present (or are too easy). Multiple dimensions would feed the anxious player that love to explore the world (or worlds), he might hire one or two mercenaries to be safe in an unknown world. Infinite towers would make the gladiator type happy but those towers need to be found and it is here where the explorer comes handy. The Indiana Johns' type need some temples and lost villages here and there to be happy. And those, per-se, are goals. To become a great explorer you need horses, maps, ink, preserved food and water, an armor and weapons might be optional or to be safe from bandits and/or wild animals. The mercenary type needs a lot of combat oriented tools and the best armor and weapon he/she can find, deadly poisons, trap knowledge, and fighting skills. It is not that I want infinite tower, multiple dimensions, etc because it will be the source of infinite mobs and fights, but more oriented to a mixture of game-plays and goals. 

Me gusta.

I will say, however, that the future updates which will include tougher mobs in the depths of the earth and POSSIBLE generated structures, coupled with a semi-large server, will absolutely lead to the exact scenario you've detailed up there.

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Here's a goal (or my goal):

 

Gear up as best as possible, take what you can, and go on an expedition to the north/south pole (z > +/- 25,000). Then build a new base and try to live there for a game year. My ideal biome is a lake at the foot of some tall mountains with permanent snow. Ideally there should be sequoia trees (the only tree that can survive there), lava pools and hot springs. And finally high precipitation (4000-8000 in debug screen) so I can observe if indeed snow can stack infinitely (as discussed in another thread).

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I think that any goal that revolves around a tangible in game reward will cease to satisfy people at some point.

And the problem with self imposed goals is that they can feel artificial and unrealistic (they can take you out of the magic circle)

 

I believe the truest goals this game could offer, is as the slogan suggests, survival based goals. We need extreme disasters, earthquakes, lava floods, storms, tornadoes, hail, volcanic eruptions, zombie hordes, skeleton raids, spider nests. poison clouds, month long eclipse. All of these type of goals would provide a great sense of accomplishment when completed, and you could virtually experience them multiple times over and over.

The riskier possible goals could include, crop and livestock extinction or disease, water based disease, sanity (I know it won't be included), wood rot etc. Goals that could potentially be considered purely a nuisance.

 

I think the binding of isaac (despite being an entirely different game) displays an excellent difficulty curve throughout the game. Knowledge and reaction time will allow you to get through the game as much as items will. At no point in the game do you feel that it's no longer a challenge.

That is what I believe the dissatisfaction of most player stems from in survival based games. The initial phase is hard to survive, afterwards it becomes easy but just tedious. Intense learning is only required to survive the first few weeks. What great procedurally generated games usually share (eg pixel dungeon) is that you feel a roughly equal mount of learning at almost any point in the game, every space and decision must be thought out.

 

As the game is going for believability it is not possible to just make more mobs, and increase the difficulty over time. The disasters I outlined could potentially emulate the difficulty and challenge of rogue like games, while still maintaining a believable atmosphere.

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But would I want to build a thriving, beautiful town only to have it decimated in a volcanic eruption or be stuck in my house for hours on end as the zombie hoard wanders around unopposed?

 

Would a month long eclipse during the winter that killed all your crops be something someone would enjoy as a challenge?

 

And what if, for example, as I was in the early-copper/bronze age, a tornado ripped apart my thatch house and destroyed all my things?

It would be even harder to get back to the point I was at because I would have taken all the small ores in the area and harvested all the crops(and possibly eaten all the animals)

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But would I want to build a thriving, beautiful town only to have it decimated in a volcanic eruption or be stuck in my house for hours on end as the zombie hoard wanders around unopposed?

 

Would a month long eclipse during the winter that killed all your crops be something someone would enjoy as a challenge?

 

And what if, for example, as I was in the early-copper/bronze age, a tornado ripped apart my thatch house and destroyed all my things?

It would be even harder to get back to the point I was at because I would have taken all the small ores in the area and harvested all the crops(and possibly eaten all the animals)

 

Again, in response to the zombie thing, Dunk is eventually making it so that large above-ground animals will be hostile, and your dominant early-game threat. Deep underground, however, the vanilla monsters you know and hate will be spawning in the darkness, and they will be practically unbeatable without at least (I think) Iron equipment. As for what rewards await you in the dark depths, I cannot say.

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I was responding to the post above which listed extreme disasters such as " earthquakes, lava floods, storms, tornadoes, hail, volcanic eruptions, zombie hordes, skeleton raids, spider nests. poison clouds, month long eclipse"

 

I am aware of Dunk's plan to move monsters underground.

But I suppose exploring the underground could be a end-game goal

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Speaking of goals in the game, would you collect all tree types? All crop types? All rock types? And having the resources, what's so bad about building? There is 'craft' in the name Terrafirmacraft.

 

EDIT: The only reward in the depths (caves and such) is sulphur. That will let you make tnt barrels.

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Speaking of goals in the game, would you collect all tree types? All crop types? All rock types? And having the resources, what's so bad about building? There is 'craft' in the name Terrafirmacraft.

 

In a multiplayer server with a decent quantity of players having all crops type and tree types (saplings and/or wood) could be a great source of income, at least at the beginning . They could be sold as seeds and saplings or as raw material (the wood and fruit), the last one could be preferred since does not kill the market. You can even sell houses if there is a regulation for that. 

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I don't actually have much to say in this discussion (for tonight) but I just wanted to quick pop in and say you guys (AllenWL, Dutchraptor, Mdtexeira, Visitor, and Chepelink) seem like very intelligent, rational, and calm people that I would very much enjoy having discussions with. The world (especially the USA) needs more people who can have differing opinions and discuss with others whilst not getting pissy. So, bravo.

I think different "tech trees" would help a lot. Right now we have one really fleshed out tech tree, which is smithing. If Agriculture, Animal husbandry, Hunting, Masonry/Carpentry were fleshed out more then you could assuage the feeling that there is "no goal". As in, there is more than one profession. However I'm pretty sure this will come in time, these aspects are already fairly fleshed out (except hunting) so I'm very confident the Devs will get around to it in due time :)

P.S. Could the aforementioned users please consider getting profile pictures? Just something so I can identify you all easier while reading through this wall 'o text. It's fine as a newbie but you all have posted enough quality content to be considered established members of the community...

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But would I want to build a thriving, beautiful town only to have it decimated in a volcanic eruption or be stuck in my house for hours on end as the zombie hoard wanders around unopposed?

 

Would a month long eclipse during the winter that killed all your crops be something someone would enjoy as a challenge?

 

And what if, for example, as I was in the early-copper/bronze age, a tornado ripped apart my thatch house and destroyed all my things?

It would be even harder to get back to the point I was at because I would have taken all the small ores in the area and harvested all the crops(and possibly eaten all the animals)

 

Indeed some would want it, others wouldn't.

Perhaps a solution could be that disasters could be toggled, but that's possibly pushing the complexity of the mod a bit too far.

Or another possibility is that certain biomes, coupled with different stability values would produce different disasters. It could be possible to find zones without much disasters but they would be missing certain ores.

 

Really the point of my post was to try think up an experience which would not require the user to resort to self imposed limits, nor would they play purely to advance through tiers.

In the mean time though I'd say the idea of fleshing out other aspects of the game will be fine. But we all will eventually get bored of these aspects too.

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Or another possibility is that certain biomes, coupled with different stability values would produce different disasters. It could be possible to find zones without much disasters but they would be missing certain ores.

How about the longer you play, the higher the chances of a disaster?

To elaborate, TFC has a year system, right? it starts at year 1 and progresses.

Perhaps from year 1~2, we could have a 0% chance for disasters, then from year 2~5, a 5% chance, then from year 5~10, a 10% chance, etc.

And other things such as storms being really common, but not doing much damage other then killing crops, stripping trees of leaves, killing grass, breaking glass, etc.

Earthquakes would simply create 'fractures' that destroy all blocks above it, so while destructive, all you need to do is cover up the fractures and repair the damage.

Volcanic eruptions could be rare, and only happen in a 'active' mountain biome, but be highly destructive and leave lava and obsidian and etc everywhere, etc.

 

Balance it out.

 

But we all will eventually get bored of these aspects too.

True, after some time, many will get bored. But what can we do? No matter how good it is, people will tire of it eventually.

That's just the way people are. All we can really do is try to let people have fun for as long as possible, and if after they tire of it, the decide to come back after some time, well, that's a bonus.

 

 

I think different "tech trees" would help a lot. Right now we have one really fleshed out tech tree, which is smithing. If Agriculture, Animal husbandry, Hunting, Masonry/Carpentry were fleshed out more then you could assuage the feeling that there is "no goal". As in, there is more than one profession. However I'm pretty sure this will come in time, these aspects are already fairly fleshed out (except hunting) so I'm very confident the Devs will get around to it in due time :)

Different 'tech trees' is something I discussed at one point in discussions, it ended with a 'for now, we focus on metallurgy, but we will turn to other 'branches' when metallurgy is done'

But I really like the idea of having different 'professions' I especially liked the idea because I felt that it would be a big incentive for people to make towns on servers and work together.

 

Like there could be a farmer, keeping the townspeople well-fed and healthy, a hunter-gatherer/explorer that goes out to bring back wild crops, animals, new mining spots, etc, a smith that provided everyone with top-notch gear, miners that gather the ores and build mines, builders that build defenses and homes, etc

 

People will be more willing to gather and share what they get, because they get things they couldn't get/make themselves alone, or would have taken a lot of efforts to do by themselves.

 

 

P.S. Could the aforementioned users please consider getting profile pictures? Just something so I can identify you all easier while reading through this wall 'o text. It's fine as a newbie but you all have posted enough quality content to be considered established members of the community...

I did think about getting a profile picture, but I was much too lazy to.

I think I'll really should get one though. I think I'll use that picture that my sister drew. I like that picture

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Picture added.  I'd love the increased specialization of tasks, such that there was a greater payoff to devoting more time to a single aspect of the game.  To really make that work, however, you'd need to add skill decay, such that even a master of animal husbandry might be only decent at it if they haven't done it for 20 years (in game).  If this were a reality, I would definitely join an SMP township.  I think I'd want to be a forester (lumberjack/forager) or a brewer.

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I think the best would be to make the mechanism hard to master, kinda like the propick.

While you can learn enough to get by, to actually become a master at it, it takes loads of practice, and a bit of instinctual knowledge.

So while it is possible to master everything, it takes a long, long time, and by the time you practice and master say, 5 professions, you might have forgotten specifics of the first one or two professions you learned.

 

Well, something like that

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I am mostly with AllenWL on this one - I am not overly fond of skill decay in particular, but it would be nice if skills would require, well, actual skill or were not governed by in-game skills as much as player aptitude in general. This way things can be mastered, but not by grinding and racking stats, but by actally employing some wit and know-how in the work by the player.

Some things I am unsure should have skills in general, because of how much it may disturb the balance. In connection to that, I remember talking about fighting skills in the relevant thread.

Regarding disasters, I wouldn't mind certain, temporary but noticeable effects challenging players but I'd rather not leave it to random whims of the system. As I have suggested somewhere before - make them results of certain actions. While I wouldn't mind somewhat adverse weather (days worth of rainstorm with the overcast making it easier for hostile mobs to spawn/attack and more risky to venture into wilds, or progressive decrease/increase of temperature for a week with some weirdly tinted sky for indicator and to help players prepare) to happen rarely (one such event per year?), hopefully with some forewarning, big stuff that possibly can severely damage if not destroy what players have toiled over for a long time has to be tied to particular decisions.

I wouldn't mind some certain, very-well guarded structure (or pocket dimension) with powerful, physics-defying enemies or other obstacles guarding some rare ingredients/block/item to cause a night - again, with some forewarning - of very frequent and strong lightning strikes over most of the world should the above be removed/acquired by the players or spawn some ghast-like creatures to wander the world for a bit, being a danger to weaker structures and players.

We already have tectonically active areas and I wouldn't want to drop any city-destroying things on top of it if the player cannot prevent/prepare for them in advance as well. Losing stuff may be adding to the survival feeling but will also discourage players who simply established some safe haven and their interests don't lie in having to rebuild it all the time.

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How about the longer you play, the higher the chances of a disaster?

To elaborate, TFC has a year system, right? it starts at year 1 and progresses.

Perhaps from year 1~2, we could have a 0% chance for disasters, then from year 2~5, a 5% chance, then from year 5~10, a 10% chance, etc.

And other things such as storms being really common, but not doing much damage other then killing crops, stripping trees of leaves, killing grass, breaking glass, etc.

 

I don't think that's a particularly good idea. On multiplayer servers time is always running, and one TFC year is not even remotely close to be reasonably long time. I bet there's servers that existed hundreds of years of TFC time. Unless there's a stopoff, those would be constantly under siege, which after a while is just plain annoying, not challenging. Basically, forcing doing world restarts after a while.

Even then, there's not much sense in saying "3% chance of earthquake". And then some - an increase of chances for disaster happening I can't see as believable mechanic. We aren't toying with forces of nature over here, we are just farmers and smiths.

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