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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
N.Frozen

WITH KNOWLEDGE: A suggestion of Writing Books; Paper, Pens, Inks invovled.

30 posts in this topic

I was attracted by TFCraft at the first glance and I really like its awesome realistic world. But after I moved into the Iron Age, I found I had nothing to do except mining & smithing. It was boring, why don't we do something else, for example, writing, to let us get into civilization?
Here are my suggestions.
 
Paper
3 sugar canes for paper? Don't you think it is too childish? In fact, paper making is a hard process.

The process of manufacturing handmade paper can be generalized into five steps(From wiki):

  • [*]Separating the useful fibre from the rest of raw materials. (e.g. cellulose from wood, cotton, etc.) [*]Beating down the fibre into pulp [*]Adjusting the colour, mechanical, chemical, biological, and other properties of the paper by adding special chemical premixes [*]Screening the resulting solution [*]Pressing and drying to get the actual paper

 
There are more details in the wiki, and it's not difficult to convert it into game. For example:

  • [*]Soak the materials into water, materials can be jute, straw and so on, wood was late used and needed to be broken up. [*]Heat it or add limewater(in fact it needs soda or caustic soda) to get pulp. [*]Screen the pulp, which needs a wooden frame(deckle). And lay the wet mat of fibre on top of a damp cloth. [*]Repeat step 3 to stack more on the damp cloth until getting a required number. [*]Gently place a wooden plank on the top of the stack and add some stone(cobblestone) to squeeze out water. [*]Air dry it and finally we get the paper.

Also there are more references and it's only my advice.
 
Pens
Either quill or ink brush is a good choice and the materials are not difficult to get. But it seems that making a pen is still not easy.

Information can be obtained on the techniques of curing and cutting quills
"In order to harden a quill that is soft, thrust the barrel into hot ashes, stirring it till it is soft; then taking it out, press it almost flat upon your knees with the back of a penknife, and afterwards reduce it to a roundness with your fingers. If you have a number to harden, set water and alum over the fire; and while it is boiling put in a handful of quills, the barrels only, for a minute, and then lay them by."

So it just needs a knife, a heating device(forge?) and some feathers in the game.

 

Ink brush is used in ancient China to write on paper. Since paper making is in a Chinese traditional way I think it's interesting to use their writing tools. A ink brush consists of stalk and hairs. Stalk is a hollow cylinder usually made of bamboo but wood is either OK. And hairs are mainly from animals. Just tie some hairs together and fit it into the stalk, an ink brush is made.

In the game, it is easy to use wool(maybe sorted) as hairs and wood(crafted) as a stalk.

 

Inks

Ancient inks are more complicated according to different cultures, so I just suggest ink sac as the original. But ink bottle is a good idea for writing and is made just by placing a glass bottle on the top of a block. Then fill it with ink sac or marking used now.

Also dyes can be added into inks to create colored writing.

 

BookWriting

Shift-right-click to place a paper on the top of a suitable block(e.g. dirt and sand are unsuitable), with an ink bottle nearby, then hold the pen and right-click the paper to start writing. The pen should first be dipped into the ink bottle and writing will decrease the ink as well as the durability of the pen.

Rough surfaces will cause twice durability decrease. It means a smooth stone is the best material to make your desk.

A written paper will be renamed as a note, and right-click the note for a look.

Signs should also be written with pens and inks.

 

A lot of paper/notes can be fastened together as a notebook with some methods, for example, threads and glues. Animal glue was made in the ancient mainly use hides, so it fits the condition of TFCraft. While staples and stapler are hard to get.

 

Finally bind the notebook in leather and sign it. After that, a book is finally finished and no more words can be changed.

 

And a bookshelf could be a great place to place written books like a log pile, isn't it?

 

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I once made crude paper like that in boy scouts

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I can't think of anything to add to this lovely little post right now, but I'll leave my approval here so I can edit some thoughtfulness in later

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well, squid ink sacks actually suck as writing ink, but whatever.

Coloured ink from various dies is nice, but rather then add them to ink, I think making ink by, say, mixing the dies with oil/water to make the ink.

 

the brush hairs where usually from a weasel, I think? but we could use any hair... how about when you get rawhide, you scrape it with a knife to get some hairs?

The stalk can be sticks for simplicity's sake, and we could get some hairs, bundle it, the attach it to some sticks to get the brush.

 

Wool cloth can be used as a paper substitute, and before paper, everything from bamboo, tree bark, silk cloth, etc where used.

Paper was used mainly in Asia, I think, and I'm pretty sure that in Europe, they used parchment, made from animal hides.

 

I think we could have say, around 2~3 things to write on, wool cloth can be the lowest-tier, then parchment, then paper.

 

I think signes should also need to be written with ink, and we should be able to make maps like that as well

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I think it sounds great, it would be fabulous to write a journal sort of thing about how you woke up in the mysterious land, survived and prospered (or came to a quick ending due to hardcore mode xD).

 

I could also see it being used for decorative purposes through dying the book covers in different colours (you could have colour organised bookshelves xD) especially if it had a custom bookshelf  to it (utilising the different woods available in game) that you could fill in the order you want.

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I would love to be able to keep records (particularly to document recipes tried) and I would like to be able to create a map in-game.  TFC has overhauled the weapon and food systems, it would be nice to see more features be refined/renabled with a more believable construction sequence.

 

A mortar & pestle could be used to grind minerals to produce inks when added to a bottle of water, and could also be used to grind an ounce or two of grain at a time pre pickaxe.

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well, squid ink sacks actually suck as writing ink, but whatever.Coloured ink from various dies is nice, but rather then add them to ink, I think making ink by, say, mixing the dies with oil/water to make the ink.

 

A mortar & pestle could be used to grind minerals to produce inks when added to a bottle of water, and could also be used to grind an ounce or two of grain at a time pre pickaxe.

 

Carbon inks were commonly made from lampblack or soot and a binding agent such as gum arabic or animal glue. The binding agent keeps the carbon particles in suspension and adhered to paper.

 Well, a pestle is a great idea, although now there's also a way to grind minerals using a quern.In fact, carbon inks are made mainly by lampblack and animal glue, and pestled to be thicker, then add some water for the use of writing. Maybe colored inks can be made in this way as well. And normal inks can be produced with black dyes. Charcoal powders or graphite powders can either be used. 

the brush hairs where usually from a weasel, I think? but we could use any hair... how about when you get rawhide, you scrape it with a knife to get some hairs?The stalk can be sticks for simplicity's sake, and we could get some hairs, bundle it, the attach it to some sticks to get the brush.

Well, actually you are right... Scraping hide to get hairs is better then wools. And the stick stalk is either OK.
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Wool cloth can be used as a paper substitute, and before paper, everything from bamboo, tree bark, silk cloth, etc where used.Paper was used mainly in Asia, I think, and I'm pretty sure that in Europe, they used parchment, made from animal hides. I think we could have say, around 2~3 things to write on, wool cloth can be the lowest-tier, then parchment, then paper.

 

A parchment book... More writing materials is wonderfully nice. We can derive a whole system just as food and weapon systems. And writing tools should be fitted with the materials.

 

First we can just carve some simple marks on stones, trees, etc.

Then we use wool cloth as the lowest-tier to write, then parchent, then paper.

Different materials should have different textures and cost different durability of the pen.

 

And since vanilla Minecraft uses paper only, I thought just of it at the first time......

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Also, they could have different writing.

For example, things written on wool cloth could be more blurred than something written on parchment or paper.

 

Also, I would really like a mapmaking system where instead of the silly magic maps of vanilla, you put paper/parchment/cloth on your writing desk/mapmaking table, then draw the map yourself.

 

It would mean that instead of wandering around with a map, you would first need a knowledge of the surrounding terrain and landmarks and draw a map yourself, then you would need to know how to look at a map to tell your position and where you want to go.

 

A compass that actually points north would be a great help with the map-making

 

Also, it would be great if you could draw pictures on your notes, instead of just words.

Like different modes on the brush/quill that lets you choose between drawing, and writing.

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I think that having maps be hand-drawn is a horrible idea.

You can access any geographical information just by hitting F3. Direction facing? Done. Coordinates? Done as well. Why resort to an inaccurate system of hand-drawn topological maps, when you can accomplish the same thing (directing people to places) using coordinates?

One of the reasons I loved and used vanilla maps is how it allows me to get a birds eye view on the area around me, more specifically, to find the location of oceans and rivers around me.

So I propose that TFC maps are computer generated (for accuracy), showing the location of water and land (water appears grayish, while land remains white on map (the map is in black and white)).

The maps are generated the same way as vanilla maps, except that instead of just walking around, you have to set up a scribbling/cartographer's table, and update the map in them.

The surrounding area will be updated in the map, with the higher the update point, the longer the radius of the circular area updated (so you have to build outpost towers for more efficient updating).

Waypoints can be marked on the map by use of the scribbling/cartographer's table, and will show up as a small circle, which displays the waypoint name and coordinates when hovered over with the cursor. The location of the waypoint corresponds to the location of the table used.

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I think that having maps be hand-drawn is a horrible idea.You can access any geographical information just by hitting F3. Direction facing? Done. Coordinates? Done as well. Why resort to an inaccurate system of hand-drawn topological maps, when you can accomplish the same thing (directing people to places) using coordinates?One of the reasons I loved and used vanilla maps is how it allows me to get a birds eye view on the area around me, more specifically, to find the location of oceans and rivers around me.So I propose that TFC maps are computer generated (for accuracy), showing the location of water and land (water appears grayish, while land remains white on map (the map is in black and white)).The maps are generated the same way as vanilla maps, except that instead of just walking around, you have to set up a scribbling/cartographer's table, and update the map in them.The surrounding area will be updated in the map, with the higher the update point, the longer the radius of the circular area updated (so you have to build outpost towers for more efficient updating).Waypoints can be marked on the map by use of the scribbling/cartographer's table, and will show up as a small circle, which displays the waypoint name and coordinates when hovered over with the cursor. The location of the waypoint corresponds to the location of the table used.

 

Oh my GOD yes.

I think, however, that this deserves its own thread. This is a fantastic idea... I highly suggest you resurrect that old thread with this post, maybe add a bit more detail and features

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I think that having maps be hand-drawn is a horrible idea.You can access any geographical information just by hitting F3. Direction facing? Done. Coordinates? Done as well. Why resort to an inaccurate system of hand-drawn topological maps, when you can accomplish the same thing (directing people to places) using coordinates?One of the reasons I loved and used vanilla maps is how it allows me to get a birds eye view on the area around me, more specifically, to find the location of oceans and rivers around me.So I propose that TFC maps are computer generated (for accuracy), showing the location of water and land (water appears grayish, while land remains white on map (the map is in black and white)).The maps are generated the same way as vanilla maps, except that instead of just walking around, you have to set up a scribbling/cartographer's table, and update the map in them.The surrounding area will be updated in the map, with the higher the update point, the longer the radius of the circular area updated (so you have to build outpost towers for more efficient updating).Waypoints can be marked on the map by use of the scribbling/cartographer's table, and will show up as a small circle, which displays the waypoint name and coordinates when hovered over with the cursor. The location of the waypoint corresponds to the location of the table used.

 

It's true that it would be inaccurate and that F3 can work better than any hand-drawn map, however, I don't like F3 because it feels off for me. and even if it tells me where to go, it doesn't tell me what's in-between me and my destination.

 

And  for "Why resort to an inaccurate system of hand-drawn topological maps, when you can accomplish the same thing (directing people to places) using coordinates?"

Then why resort to smiting tools and armor on a anvil when you can accomplish the same thing by getting the things in creative and removing the 'used' ingots?

 

It's a challenge, for one and it's something that you can improve with your own skill.

And if it's computer-generated using the table, then if I want to map out a wide area, I'll need a table at every 'limit' of the map.

And if higher points give a bigger area, what's to prevent people from using a common material such as thatch to pillar up to world height then generate the map?

 

And I don't like the idea of waypoints telling coordinates.

 

I'd much rather study my surroundings and use my knowledge of terrain any my mapmaking skills to draw a map, then look at my surroundings to see where I am, use my compass to orient me, then find my way using my map that way,

 

rather then plop paper and ink on a table to make the map, then hover my cursor over a waypoint, then open up F3 then walk in a straight line until I reach my destination.

 

I mean, I can see merits in your suggestion, but I don't think having all the tools should hand you the result on a (figurative) silver platter.

That's one of the reasons I like the prospector's pick. It's not accurate, no, but you can learn to use it using your own skills. If the prospector's pick gave you something like the exact distance from the ore or something, I doubt I would enjoy using it as much.

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I just found this pretty cool map mod which might tick some of the boxes that you guys where talking about earlier in regards to a basic style of map that would rely on the use of landmarks, and as far as I can tell doesn't use co-ordinates but does include a marking system (very quickly tested it to see if it works so not 100% sure on the no co-ordinates).

The mod ads a recipe for an atlas book using a book and compass but this could be changed to a longer and less accessible crafting process, if desired I'm sure.

There is also a way to edit the config files to include TFC biomes and edit the textures to reflect the different biomes on the map. http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/2045745-172164152forge-antique-atlas/

Might be worth a look, I think I will start to use this going forward as mapwriter and zans minimap seem a bit cheaty to me, and takes a bit of the adventure and exploration element out of TFC. 

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Um, that looks kinda like a vanilla map with some tweaks to me, honestly.

 

Though, gathering maps into a atlas could be a nice way to keep a bunch of maps together.

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I'm going to nip this at the bud and say this; if you want to discuss hand drawn vs generated maps, go to the thread Eternalundeath linked. However I will warm you, it was discussed to death and the general consensus was generated was better for game purposes.

Let's keep this to paper in general and not get into semantics discussing something that has (in my eyes) already been beaten to death, then resurrected, then brutally slaughtered and finally reborn. Leave the zombie angel horse alone, as SGRnoodles would say.

That said, this thread is pure gold!

Also.... Printing press guys? We already have stirrups. Why not have two of the holy trinity of inventions?

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Well, I shall then go with the community, not review&revive the zombie angel horse, and let the hand-drawn map idea be put to rest.

 

Printing press would be great, but what will the stamps be made of? wood or metal?

But for the record, I think if we have a printing press, we should have a press for other stuff as well(say, oil) then make the printing press by getting a press and slapping a printing stamp/thingy on it.

 

Um, and you said two of the holy trinity of inventions. what's the third?

 

That aside, I think we should now turn our attention to making ink, quill/pen/brush, and paper/parchment/etc

Agreed?

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I just found this pretty cool map mod which might tick some of the boxes that you guys where talking about earlier in regards to a basic style of map that would rely on the use of landmarks, and as far as I can tell doesn't use co-ordinates but does include a marking system (very quickly tested it to see if it works so not 100% sure on the no co-ordinates).

The mod ads a recipe for an atlas book using a book and compass but this could be changed to a longer and less accessible crafting process, if desired I'm sure.

There is also a way to edit the config files to include TFC biomes and edit the textures to reflect the different biomes on the map. http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/2045745-172164152forge-antique-atlas/

Might be worth a look, I think I will start to use this going forward as mapwriter and zans minimap seem a bit cheaty to me, and takes a bit of the adventure and exploration element out of TFC. 

 

Did you ever finish making it compatible? I am wanting to do so myself, but I cannot find a complete list of TFC's Biomes; & I can't really understand how I'm supposed to add TFC's biomes to use the vanilla-equivalent-biome's map textures for it instead.

 

The mod itself works great, but as you can see here: http://i.imgur.com/hdjr0OW.jpg it's not all accurate (the, "TFC High Plains" biome shows up as water, as river/ocean is what surrounds it so the Atlas mod guesses the unknown biome). I feel Rei's/Zans/MapWriter/etc is too cheaty for TFC, but I would really like to use markers & have a map-- & I feel the Antique Atlas mod is the closest to it.

There are a few topics talking about the Antique Atlas mod, but I revived this one over another specifically to ask you if you ever completed it. I may end up posting this as its own thread in the discussion or TFC mod subforum if this does not get a response.

 

Cheers!

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This post reminded me of when I started playing minecraft. Before there was Rei or Zan Minimap.

I use to build columns with different materials so I could locate myself and my bases. It was fun.

It would not work on TFC where we have to travel thousands of blocks.

Actually I wish we had a map that could display all the explored areas. Like you have with dynmap on a server.

But something that would work ingame.

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This post reminded me of when I started playing minecraft. Before there was Rei or Zan Minimap.

I use to build columns with different materials so I could locate myself and my bases. It was fun.

It would not work on TFC where we have to travel thousands of blocks.

Actually I wish we had a map that could display all the explored areas. Like you have with dynmap on a server.

But something that would work ingame.

 

Which Antique Atlas captures perfectly; It's not super-cheaty like REI or Zan/Voxel, & you can use it to display all explored areas (automatically updates as chunks load, adding the explored areas to your map), & it's an in-game item. You can scroll to zoom in/out, along with clicking & dragging the map around to view anywhere you've taken that particular atlas. Plus, markers so you can mark important place without displaying the coordinates so no using F3 & walking directly to it. In my opinion, it's as close to perfect for TFC as exists.

 

The Antique Atlas shows rivers, oceans, swamps, mountains, plains, deserts, forests, jungles, etc..... just needs to be modified for some of TFC's specific biomes. Antique Atlas has an API for it, but I've no idea how to use it so I was looking into just directly editing the Antique Atlas mod. If somebody could provide me with a full list of TFC's biomes so I don't have to fly around in creative for a few hours & risk missing some, then I may take that directly to the Antique Atlas mod maker & ask them to officially support TFC's Biomes (which would be wonderful) as it's just a few additions into a list.

 

Antique Atlas used to just have a hotkey which would open it from anywhere, which was beneficial in that it was completely local & you could use it on servers that didn't include the mod, but it has since changed to an in-game item form of a book/actual-atlas. Personally, I wish the dev would have kept that as an option since the in-game Atlas item has both the added benefit, & added downfall, in which if you should lose the Atlas (death, dropping it in lava, etc) then the map itself is gone along with all of your markers. The Atlas' data is specific to that particular Atlas; creating a new one will create a blank Atlas (but I do believe you can make copies).. functioning similar to vanilla in-game maps (but more useful, & more fitting for TerraFirmaCraft). I personally think this aspect is fitting to the spirit of TerraFirmaCraft, which is why I say it's a benefit as well as a downfall.

 

Thoughts?

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Mapwriter is also a mod that maps out the entire area as you explore it. However it is more like Zan's map in that it does not require an in-game item, and has waypoints as well as display of coordinates.

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Good stuff

 

A link for the lazy

 

Hot damn that looks like a great idea - I think full compatibility should be added though - run detection on startup to see if this mod is installed, and if so add some resources so that it A) recognizes TFC biomes, and B ) doesn't make any semi-flat land look like plains, as the original mod seems to

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With the maps a good mechanic would be that the map did not show your location, you would have to work out your location from the terrain around it. This would add to the immersion and believability of the game whereas just being able to see exactly where you are at a glance just seems wrong to me.

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A link for the lazy

 

Hot damn that looks like a great idea - I think full compatibility should be added though - run detection on startup to see if this mod is installed, and if so add some resources so that it A) recognizes TFC biomes, and B ) doesn't make any semi-flat land look like plains, as the original mod seems to

I see this talk about atlas mod and how it needs to "just" support TFC biomes. There is, however, no such thing as TFC biome, in general there are only Plains, Hills and Oceans, that about it. To add proper TFC support, there needs to be consideration for at the very least forest templates (or however those are called), possibly dynamically splicing those by type (coniferous, foliate, mixed at the very least). All that sounds more like a separate addon mod to me, not at all an easy fix you are talking 'bout.

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I see this talk about atlas mod and how it needs to "just" support TFC biomes. There is, however, no such thing as TFC biome, in general there are only Plains, Hills and Oceans, that about it. To add proper TFC support, there needs to be consideration for at the very least forest templates (or however those are called), possibly dynamically splicing those by type (coniferous, foliate, mixed at the very least). All that sounds more like a separate addon mod to me, not at all an easy fix you are talking 'bout.

 

Do keep in mind, getting "Hello World" out of java is my full extent of knowledge of that code. I have NO idea how it works, especially in a game like minecraft.These were just general suggestions - Dunk knows what I meant.

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Do keep in mind, getting "Hello World" out of java is my full extent of knowledge of that code. I have NO idea how it works, especially in a game like minecraft.These were just general suggestions - Dunk knows what I meant.

I didn't mean to sound mean or anything, just had to make sure we all understand what would entail retrofitting that one mod for TFC needs. Because I'm that kind of guy, you know - a dick kind kinda.

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