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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
TonyLiberatto

Make Stone Age Longer.

93 posts in this topic

You right. Bears would not just charge straw walls without reason, Unless they hungry and can smell the food inside. As I have never camped in Bear areas, I cant talk from experience.

I do now that most primitive civilizations would build adobe walls and thatch roof.

It just bothers me the ability to make walls with thatch.

But I don't think we need to make a big deal about.

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Actually, Mud hut's were more common in a worldwide sense. Being primarily made from straw and sticks that were then covered in a thick mud and then left to dry. Adobe in and of itself is fairly unique to the America's.

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I have seen mud huts being build. It's a lot sturdier them people think.

They create a structure with sticks just like we do now a days with iron bars for concrete.

The sticks are no more than 8 inches apart and  tie together on the crossings.

Thick bolls of mud is them applied and let dry. They apply several more coats  of mud until the walls have the right thickness, usually around 6 inches.

I have seen houses where after the walls are dry a coat of stucco is applied witch makes it impossible to know that bricks are not inside.

That's the point where I think it would be too much to code in the mod.  having a recipe for adobe blocks makes more sense from game-play point of view.

Not a  religious person myself, but according to the Bible the Jews were making adobe bricks  in Egypt 4000 thousands of years ago. So adobe is not just in america. 

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I have seen mud huts being build. It's a lot sturdier them people think.

They create a structure with sticks just like we do now a days with iron bars for concrete.

The sticks are no more than 8 inches apart and  tie together on the crossings.

Thick bolls of mud is them applied and let dry. They apply several more coats  of mud until the walls have the right thickness, usually around 6 inches.

I have seen houses where after the walls are dry a coat of stucco is applied witch makes it impossible to know that bricks are not inside.

That's the point where I think it would be too much to code in the mod.  having a recipe for adobe blocks makes more sense from game-play point of view.

Not a  religious person myself, but according to the Bible the Jews were making adobe bricks  in Egypt 4000 thousands of years ago. So adobe is not just in america. 

 

All of these personal anecdotes that you keep bringing up really add nothing to the discussion other than the appearance of you saying "I'm smarter and more wordly than you, and I think you are wrong." And honestly, it's getting to the point where I find myself annoyed before even reading your posts because it's the same thing over and over and over again.

 

You aren't breaking any forum rules, so there is nothing that I can do about this to stop you from posting; but this is just something that you should probably keep in mind.

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So adobe is not just in america. 

 

You are correct, I must have been thinking of something else. I blame today, it has been a rather mentally exhausting day for me.

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A couple of points

 

1.) The thatching materials used in short term emergency shelters would be leaf based rather than straw based (straw requires agriculture)

 

2.) Real life short term emergency shelters are meant to only protect you from the elements. You don't normally have animals that want to eat you. And monsters don't exist

 

3.) A tech tree bottleneck based off of straw for pit kilns would be motivated by a desire to extend the stone age rather than realism. You could easily use charcoal and wood as a fuel in a pit kiln in real life instead of straw and wood for example

 

4.) This isn't Earth. Perhaps Minecraftian carnivorous animals are much more aggressive than thier Earth based counterparts

 

5.) Some mods have successfully made it so mobs can break through blocks to attack players. It works quite well and is fun if you are into that sort of thing. Obviously block breaking mobs would have to be a hard/harcore only feature

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All of these personal anecdotes that you keep bringing up really add nothing to the discussion other than the appearance of you saying "I'm smarter and more wordly than you, and I think you are wrong." And honestly, it's getting to the point where I find myself annoyed before even reading your posts because it's the same thing over and over and over again.

 

You aren't breaking any forum rules, so there is nothing that I can do about this to stop you from posting; but this is just something that you should probably keep in mind.

Sorry if I annoyed you kitty. In no way I consider myself better or smarter them anyone here. I can't even write the wright way. I was a poor boy in a third world country who came to america many years ago. I have actually seen those things, not because I was a rich tourist or a volunteer, but because I lived them. The house I was describing was my grandparents house. On summer vacations I would go to their house and it was my job to get water from the well to fill the clay pots. I drunk from clay jugs. That does not makes me better than any body.  

I was trying to contribute for the discussion with my personal experience.

I would be very sad if I was cut from the forum. Not really sure how I should proceed. 

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3.) A tech tree bottleneck based off of straw for pit kilns would be motivated by a desire to extend the stone age rather than realism. You could easily use charcoal and wood as a fuel in a pit kiln in real life instead of straw and wood for example

That is entirely true and I am well aware of it. Realism would require that no player has any previous knowledge of how to make anything in the game. Early paleolithic people didn't know how to make pottery any more than bronze age people knew how to make high carbon steel. They had to invent everything rather than read it from a wiki. It's not really possible to make the player start the game without knowing anything first. Knowing the next technology step is a primary motivator for a lot of players (I won't say "all" or "most"). To best ways to simulate a learning curve it to either make a resource scarce (like nickel) or to make a process really complicated (like making a blast furnace). I'm not sure how complicated you can make stone age technology and still have it believable so I think scarcity is the next best option. 

 

I'm not saying the thatch bottleneck is a perfect solution. I was just trying to get people thinking about believable ways of slowing down the stone age. Bioxx and Dunk have always said that TFC is about believability and not realism. So far this thread was mostly about cool things to add to the stone age, but it wouldn't make sense to add them if Steve is just going to skip to more advanced technology. All of these things would become the dyed leather armor of TFC, a complex mechanic that sounded really cool at first but hardly ever gets used in survival because Steve goes straight to iron armor. 

 

It's not really possible to make the player start the game without reading the wiki first.

The first rule of Terrafirmacraft is you do not talk about Terrafirmacraft!

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D

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With the ores to create a bottleneck you could instead have them as natural alloys (Copper was made from this sort of material and the first bronze was probably made from copper which contained arsenic/tin so you could create it by accident or intentionally add those ores) which you need to right click in your hotbar with a pro-pick to discover it's composition so you can create actual alloys, that would stop people jumping straight from stone age to bronze age unless they had good luck. As well as this the ores you find could have a randomly generated weight just like the crop system which would create a more believable ore system than making any ore you find be one of three sizes. 

 

My idea for the straw limitation is that from grass it is just a chance you will get straw and you can only create one object a time in a pit kiln which would mean you have to be past your first harvest to have any reliable source of straw and create straw shelters. This also limits progression to metal which is what is desired.

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Again - I would not limit the pottery system itself (which much rarer straw would cause), but rather the early metal smelting system!

In my opinion, we should have access to fired clay items like jugs, vessels or bowls much earlier than making the first metal tool, so just limiting straw wouldn't be the ideal answer.

I'm just not sure, how to best seperate early pottery from metal production ...

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I'm just not sure, how to best seperate early pottery from metal production ...

I am on the same boat. 

 

That's why I suggested that since having 4 wood blocks magically unlocks the crafting grid, we could make it so you would be unable to mine, smelt or do any kind of metal work unless you have full health. We would need to have the crafting grid available to early game. Just make any advanced wood item to need metal. Doors would need metal hinges, barrels would need metal rings and so on. Also any gravity free blocks would be metal dependent. Wood blocks need hammer and nails. Stone blocks need trowel and mortar.

That would make the game a lot more interesting, also it would have a more believable progression. Metals tools would still be a huge boon on production and make your life a lot easier.  Having a armor to protect you and durable and faster tools is reason enough for anyone to go for metals.

 

Surviving on stone age would require planing. Is not just a question of hanging there till you find copper to make your first tool. Now you need to make a base with the few gravity free blocks available to early game. It looks like mud bricks are being included in b79 ( hurray ) so with that and a thatch roof you can make a shelter. now go collect seeds and animals. Once you have full health you can start on metals.

It amazes me how people tend to think of stone age and caveman as the same. it's such a misconception. Man lived on villages and actually towns before metals. They did not started mining for metals until long after agriculture and animal husbandry was evolved enough.

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The mud bricks are actually still just placeholders in 79. You probably won't be able to actually build with them or anything until 80 or even 81.

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Thanks for the info. Now I don't know if I get happy that they are being considered enough to actual have a placeholder, or sad because is not included yet. anyways thanks for the replay.

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they are being considered enough to actual have a placeholder,

This means nothing. Pipes were considered enough to have a placeholder, then they were discarded.

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What i would love to see is a tech tree the most

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Custimization could help... One of the main reasons Minecraft is so popular is because its custimizable. I'd personally like the challenge to be more about surviving than getting metals. It's possibly just me,  but maybe dropping out mobs and adding night time predators even more dangerous than daytime predators. If we are going to make the stone age longer, we should consider things like predators and competing with other creatures for food. Hunting should be a main priority in the stone age. Also during this age, we normally didn´t build. It was more about finding a shelter like a nice cave, which adds to the mob dropping part. Having monsters spawn in darkness is a total game changer, making us forget that we normally looked for a shelter instead of building one. I agree with thatch being a lot more scarce than it is now. The main problem with that is that it is a building block. I don´t think anyone will agree to dropping normal minecraft mobs, but I'm posting it anyway. Also if we are making stages longer we should add more things to do since grinding isn't to fun. Again being able to customize the expierience would be nice. Maybe alternate routes that still contain the same technology tree?  I'd be fine with a differnt mod for more animals... or maybe compatibility with Mo´ Creatures??

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I'd be fine with a differnt mod for more animals... or maybe compatibility with Mo´ Creatures??

I was thinking about this too, mo creatures does a great job of implementing an awesome variety of animals into the game, and the weird ones like wraiths and golems and wyverns could be disabled in the config.

What I feel is the biggest problem with animals and/or monsters is that tfc is(rightly) balanced for a medieval/ stone age historical age, but people in those times didn't have to deal with hordes of zombies and spiders and skeletons. What's more, and someone said this before but I can't find who, is that a few years ago having monsters appear out of nowhere at night was fun and balanced, but now, especially in tfc, this is clumsy and stupid. Once this gets changed and they become an underground challenge for Steve to deal with, perhaps as a goal that this thread was talking about, will tfc have a balanced goal. In my opinion.

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Thanks bilbobuddy, so there´s two of us...

Anyways, I could (and probably will) make a whole differnt section to talk about the mods that deserve compatibility with TFC, but that is not the matter. As I stated before, custimization would also help make the stone age (and all the other ages). One of the reason Minecraft is so popular is its ability to be custimized. Wanna go to space? You can do it in Minecraft. Wanna build a huge castle? You can do it in Minecraft. So I say we should encourage players to explore during the stone age, looking for a shelter better than the last, new animals and foods, or just looking for a place to settle down.  Adding things like paint to paint your cave walls and other fun aesthitics things would make the game a whole lot more interisting since the main point of TFC at the moment is getting the best tools. Once you get the best tools and you're pretty happy with you're home, your goal should be automation and maybe even space travel. The 'end game' shouldn´t be when you get the best tools or the best house, it should be until you are the most epic thing in existence. Of course that is up to the player, but we should encourage travel. Of course space travel won´t be implemented I just wanted to state an idea for 'end game'. With the dropping the normal and iconic minecraft mobs, we would have more believable problems. People in the stone age didn't die because of a skeleton shooting at him with a lance, they died trying to find food/water or from dieases. Bleeding, weight, and temperature would also be nice to implement.

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The way I see we live in a consumer world, and people always want something new. Myself included, once I get to red steel and have made my castle the game gets pretty boring.

Have you noticed how the forum gets so full whenever we have a update for TFC? once people play the game for a while they quiet down and many servers go empty.

When I talk about making stone age longer, I am not saying to make the game harder, but to create conditions for the player to advance into technology. Like for the example the requirement of having a full advanced farm and animal husbandry before you can consider metallurgy. There is a lot of things that would need to be tweaked, but It would take a longer time for the player to get to red bucket. For me it would mean having fun for a longer time.  

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Thanks bilbobuddy, so there´s two of us...

Anyways, I could (and probably will) make a whole differnt section to talk about the mods that deserve compatibility with TFC, but that is not the matter. As I stated before, custimization would also help make the stone age (and all the other ages). One of the reason Minecraft is so popular is its ability to be custimized. Wanna go to space? You can do it in Minecraft. Wanna build a huge castle? You can do it in Minecraft. So I say we should encourage players to explore during the stone age, looking for a shelter better than the last, new animals and foods, or just looking for a place to settle down.  Adding things like paint to paint your cave walls and other fun aesthitics things would make the game a whole lot more interisting since the main point of TFC at the moment is getting the best tools. Once you get the best tools and you're pretty happy with you're home, your goal should be automation and maybe even space travel. The 'end game' shouldn´t be when you get the best tools or the best house, it should be until you are the most epic thing in existence. Of course that is up to the player, but we should encourage travel. Of course space travel won´t be implemented I just wanted to state an idea for 'end game'. With the dropping the normal and iconic minecraft mobs, we would have more believable problems. People in the stone age didn't die because of a skeleton shooting at him with a lance, they died trying to find food/water or from dieases. Bleeding, weight, and temperature would also be nice to implement.

 

 

I'm not even mad, I'm amazed.

 

I'll probably have a discussion post about this but I have a big problem with black/red/blue steel.

 

 

I like a bit of magic, I like alchemy, I like fictitious stuff, but there is a place for it. 

 

 

Ferrous metallurgy (in real life) doesn't end with (re)fined pig iron, so I really feel black/red/blue steel is blocking tfc from advancing towards anything past small scale medieval blacksmithing. Iron/steel working goes on to stuff like bessemer converters, and open hearth furnaces, and basic oxygen furnaces etc etc, and having honestly boring replacement, black/red/blue steel, where there is nothing new, you just have to mix stuff you've already found from around your world, and then voila, you have the best stuff in the game (still not all  that new or interesting.

 

When you get past blast furnaces I feel the fun kind of ends, you just have to mix metals, and mix metals, and the only balance is exploration. 

 

There is also so much more technology that tfc could have. I think pumps, pipes, gears, steam, and maybe simple electricity are all possible. I can image carving gears out of wood, maybe even pounding copper into strips, finding rubber trees, making a simple battery with  zinc, copper, sulfuric acid (probably made with sulfur) and having lamps, or other stuff powered by electricity. Gears, pipes, and pumps for sure, electricity maybe not.

 

What I think would be awesome is fictional mobs getting a rewrite, becoming an almost quest-like aspect to steve, who has pseudo-industrial age/steampunk equipment tackling a nest of zombies, a den of spiders, or a maze of skeletons.

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I'm not even mad, I'm amazed.

 

I'll probably have a discussion post about this but I have a big problem with black/red/blue steel.

 

 

I like a bit of magic, I like alchemy, I like fictitious stuff, but there is a place for it. 

 

 

Ferrous metallurgy (in real life) doesn't end with (re)fined pig iron, so I really feel black/red/blue steel is blocking tfc from advancing towards anything past small scale medieval blacksmithing. Iron/steel working goes on to stuff like bessemer converters, and open hearth furnaces, and basic oxygen furnaces etc etc, and having honestly boring replacement, black/red/blue steel, where there is nothing new, you just have to mix stuff you've already found from around your world, and then voila, you have the best stuff in the game (still not all  that new or interesting.

 

When you get past blast furnaces I feel the fun kind of ends, you just have to mix metals, and mix metals, and the only balance is exploration. 

 

There is also so much more technology that tfc could have. I think pumps, pipes, gears, steam, and maybe simple electricity are all possible. I can image carving gears out of wood, maybe even pounding copper into strips, finding rubber trees, making a simple battery with  zinc, copper, sulfuric acid (probably made with sulfur) and having lamps, or other stuff powered by electricity. Gears, pipes, and pumps for sure, electricity maybe not.

 

What I think would be awesome is fictional mobs getting a rewrite, becoming an almost quest-like aspect to steve, who has pseudo-industrial age/steampunk equipment tackling a nest of zombies, a den of spiders, or a maze of skeletons.

 

If you haven't already read the Believability post on the front page of the website, I would strongly suggest that you do so.

 

http://terrafirmacraft.com/index.html/_/articles/believable-r64

 

Also you need to keep in mind that the time frame of TFC ends around the 14th century, and the developers have no plans of expanding the mod beyond that.

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Ok, besides the 14th century bit there are no conflictions, actually they kinda support what I'm saying. For the 14th century bit, piping, steam, and waterwheels, or pumps or something like that is totally and entirely reasonable.

 

I think the devs should in fact move past the 14th century.

 

Electricity is far fetched, but the egyptians had some kind of battery, and the technological level for it is not all that high.

 

My last section is gonna be a bit controversial, but here goes. I think the definition of believable should be changed to realistic unless problematic. By problematic I mean it is to complex, or breaks the balance, or something along those lines. I love tfc, but I sometimes feel that we are settling for less when we say believable.

 

Also fictional stuff like magic and alchemy get a +1 from me fyi. I think magic and fictional mobs should serve as the way to achieve, whereas metals and whatnot would serve almost as a tool to be able to conquer these magical mobs.

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All of this is possible with a bit of effort on the players part. Kitty has ore-dictionaried the mod and with the tools out there, Custom Ore Gen, Mob Spawn Controls 2, MineTweaker, ModTweaker, etc. you can do anything you want. I fairly certain that MSC2 is compatible with Mo' Creatures, so it likely is possible to make it work. I like that the devs have a good mod that they are adding to at a reasonable pace while maintaining balance. So many mods add everything and the kitchen sink and the mod looses focus and its theme. So they put a lot of effort into making it as compatible as possible with other mods.

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Good to know! Round of applause for kitty!!! I should try this...

Don't want to ask too much, but I wouldn't mind me some built in mod crossover stuff.

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