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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
TonyLiberatto

Make Stone Age Longer.

93 posts in this topic

There's really only so far that a mod can go for crossover stuff until it actually becomes dependent on having the other mod installed, which we want to avoid. TFC is a large enough mod as it is, and if we started focusing on adding crossover compatibility with other mods, that would only take away from the core development of new features for the actual mod itself. While compatibility is something to strive for, it is very low priority especially considering that the mod is still in beta.

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You are totally right. Although I don't think heavy compatibility requires dependency, something like this should have to wait until tfc is out of beta.

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All Hail Timorr The Thread Necromancer!!!!!

 

In all seriousness though I shouldn't be able to get to the iron age by my first fall. Let alone by mid summer as I have managed on some particularly favorable seeds...

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In all seriousness though I shouldn't be able to get to the iron age by my first fall. Let alone by mid summer as I have managed on some particularly favorable seeds...

 

There will always be players who try to rush through all of the tiers as fast as possible, and there is honestly no point in making changes to the mod to force them to slow down, because they are just going to try to find a way around it and go through as fast as possible again. I will bet that you worked fairly hard in order to get to iron by midsummer, and likely ignored many other aspects of the game. There is already a decent amount of content in the game that it is entirely possible to drag out each age for long periods of time. Case in point, it took over 40 episodes in my TFC series before we even made a bloomery.

 

TFC is a game, not a race. If someone wants to sprint to what they consider the end and then quit, they have the right to do so. If other players decide to take a more leisurely route and explore the mod at their own pace, that's great too. If we put crazy restrictions in place to stop people from sprinting, all it does is hurt the players who were enjoying the mod on their own time frame.

 

Edit: Keep in mind that players always have the ability to put their own restrictions in place. If you decide that you want to have a large agricultural setup before you move on to the copper age, there is literally nothing stopping you other than your own will power. Just because you might think playing that way is the absolute best, forcing it on other players who do not agree is unfair and selfish. TFC is a mod for Minecraft, which is a sandbox game. The goals and rules are primarily up to the player to create, change and break as they see fit. By forcing goals and rules into the mod itself, all that does is alienate the players who want a different play style.

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There will always be players who try to rush through all of the tiers as fast as possible, and there is honestly no point in making changes to the mod to force them to slow down, because they are just going to try to find a way around it and go through as fast as possible again. I will bet that you worked fairly hard in order to get to iron by midsummer, and likely ignored many other aspects of the game. There is already a decent amount of content in the game that it is entirely possible to drag out each age for long periods of time. Case in point, it took over 40 episodes in my TFC series before we even made a bloomery.

 

TFC is a game, not a race. If someone wants to sprint to what they consider the end and then quit, they have the right to do so. If other players decide to take a more leisurely route and explore the mod at their own pace, that's great too. If we put crazy restrictions in place to stop people from sprinting, all it does is hurt the players who were enjoying the mod on their own time frame.

 

Edit: Keep in mind that players always have the ability to put their own restrictions in place. If you decide that you want to have a large agricultural setup before you move on to the copper age, there is literally nothing stopping you other than your own will power. Just because you might think playing that way is the absolute best, forcing it on other players who do not agree is unfair and selfish. TFC is a mod for Minecraft, which is a sandbox game. The goals and rules are primarily up to the player to create, change and break as they see fit. By forcing goals and rules into the mod itself, all that does is alienate the players who want a different play style.

 

Those are some good points, but what is structure if it is up to the players to balance the game for themselves? And if not balance, add structure to the game.

 

The problem is not to stop people from sprinting, but to make the race longer.

 

For the "By forcing goals and rules into the mod itself, all that does is alienate the players who want a different play style." part, configs. configs configs configs

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I have to agree with kitty, if forcing the game to be longer for everyone will make some people not want to play, then its not really worth it. players can make the game as arbitrarily long as they want, but they will always be limited on how fast they can make it. 

 

For me, I like the long game, I started my new world when .79 came out and I only got a blast furnace a week back because I've been exploring the new food mechanic on the search for the perfect meal (which incredibly hard btw, I wrote a macro to help, 50 million food combinations and no perfect meal, ridiculous!) and when I start my next world I'm going to set the units gotten from nuggets from 10 to 1 to make it longer still.

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Edit: Keep in mind that players always have the ability to put their own restrictions in place. If you decide that you want to have a large agricultural setup before you move on to the copper age, there is literally nothing stopping you other than your own will power. Just because you might think playing that way is the absolute best, forcing it on other players who do not agree is unfair and selfish. TFC is a mod for Minecraft, which is a sandbox game. The goals and rules are primarily up to the player to create, change and break as they see fit. By forcing goals and rules into the mod itself, all that does is alienate the players who want a different play style.

 

True, but putting your own restrictions has it's limits.

Say, I would feel awfully dumb and feel rather bored if I tried to re-create a post-stone-age scavenger age in TFC, because sure, I would be able to do it by gathering wild crops and fruits, exploring, etc, but where do I start advancing? While it's true that you can linger in each age as long as you want, once you go through all features of that 'age' all you're doing is pretty much pretending there is something more, and dragging your feet.

I might decide to say, gather each type of crop before I go to metal age, and that would, to me, be fine. I'm expanding my edibles, getting different tasting food, and I have a tangible goal to work towards.

 

But after that? I might say oh, lets make a big farm, but for what? Do I need the big farm after all, when pre-metal I won't be able to store them all anyways? After a bit, I'll start feeling bored, and somewhat dumb because I'm doing something for no reason other then to just drag my feet and linger in this age.

 

If I had something more, like say, plant genetics, or a pre-metal age food preservation(other then stuffing them in a vessel and cutting decay every other day, because really, that's kinda hard to do when you get more food), I could say, 'let's stock up food for the metal age since I'll be busy mining ores, smiting, etc to care for my plants for a while' then when I have enough, I can proceed.

But with nothing really do do on the stone age other then make a basic home and a small farm, I feel no need to stay there, because to be frank, all I'm doing is just ignoring proceeding and stubbornly lounging around munching on salad and watching the wheat grow.

 

Less than a race, I would compare this to an amusement park, divided into separate stages. Some people like to rush through, only riding the big, major rides of each section, some people like to take their time.

But even if you want to take time, if a section doesn't have lots of rides, you either have to move on, or ride the same thing over and over again.

I would just like a little bit more rides to enjoy in the starting section.

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While I agree with the amusement park analogy, there are a couple things that I need to point out.

  • When creating a new ride, we have to take into consideration how much effort it takes to build it, and how likely people are actually going to ride it depending on which section it is placed in, and whether or not it is a requirement to move on to the next section. If we don't make the ride mandatory, those players who rush through the big rides will likely only ride the new one once to see what it's about, and then go back to rushing through the big rides and complaining that the game goes too fast.
  • For the majority of the suggestions in this topic, they aren't actually suggesting new rides.
  • Take Djakuta's suggestion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the basis of his suggestion is that in history, agriculture came before metal tools, so he believes that this should also be the case in TFC. However, considering that the agriculture ride is already available at any time throughout your visit, he would rather change it so it is taken from the "Ride Whenever" section of the park, and not only move it into the "Stone Age" section, but also say "You have to ride Agriculture X times before you can leave the Stone Age section."
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Edit: Bit doopy from flu, my comment was meant to follow the last one on page 4. Either I missed there was another page or lost a lot of time.

Not sure what your point is exactly. TFC is still in beta and many features are to be added. So they are making the race longer. And throwing up roadblocks and forcing players to fully explore one feature (which they may not enjoy) to access a fairly unconnected feature (which they do enjoy) is, as kitty said, selfish.

As for configs, make requests for the ones you feel are lacking. However think about how they can be detected. Detecting agricultural progress, besides just skill level, isn't really feasible. Even querying skill level would take a bunch of new code.

So I'd suggest building it yourself. For example: Use minetweaker to remove the bloomery recipe and make a new one with an unobtainable item in centre of recipe. Then using HQM create a quest where you have to submit X oz or crop A, B and C, which gives reward of unobtainable item needed for bloomery.

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I must hail Thread Necromancer Timorr again before I post. Hail!

 

Now comes the organized bullets of thought:

  • I get where you all are coming from. No need to alienate people by forcing them to do something unnecessary.
  • I had sheep, farm and an orchard started in the world where I achieved Iron by midsummer. It was just extremely favorable (I spawned next to a cherry tree, by exposed nq malachite and the luck kept up in that fashion)
  • My only issue is that the stone age is so bereft of features (I can make a shelter and a stone axe, yay.)
  • Maybe don't take his suggestion on requiring 1000 health to mine (that seems excessive) I normally hover from 800-850. Requiring regular meals is plenty on that score.
  • However, maybe, eventually, add the features that can add to, instead of subtract from, play styles.
  • Familiar animals will follow like a tame wolf if instructed=The possibility of a nomadic play style without the normal pain of moving your animals. (maybe larger,  unfamiliar animals will try and break tethers if this is implemented?)
  • Tents, fences and bonfires add ambience to this new nomadic lifestyle
  • A clay oven (that takes several days to cure) would add ambience, and better bread, to sedentary farmer lifestyles
  • Mushrooms, that grow on thatch, in the dark, would make it possible to be the crazy miner man, that only comes up for lumber, water and to trade.

In conclusion, I enjoy this mod in the extreme and like to be a jack of all trades, but I would eventually like to see several emergent lifestyles crop up in addition to the sedentary farmer/rancher/smith, the sponsored explorer, and the bleeding edge of survival hunter gatherer.

 

Thank you, LiesTECH

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I believe in the start the creators of TFC actually wanted to make the minecraft more realistic. Players like me that have been playing the mod for a long time know how hard the transition from realistic to believable was. I still remember small chests and so many other features that were implemented because it was not realistic to be able to store that many cubic meters of stone inside a single chest. In the end gameplay won and we move on to new storage solutions. One of the first things I remember that attracted me to TFC was exactly the way that the mod was trying to make Minecraft realistic, like you cannot punch a tree, you have to use a axe for that. like you cannot make a pickaxe with wood, and so on. TFC is the mod that introduced me to so many new words from metallurgy and mineralogy. The subject is not exhausted, as for sure there are many minerals that have not been added to the game, but a huge effort was made in that area. I don't know if the developers have any actual  real life experience in those areas, but I can appreciate how well though it is.

What bothers me is that we have so much metallurgy in the game, and little things that could be added to stone age get relegated to second plane. The same way that it does not make sense to smelt iron ores in a minecraft vanilla furnace and have ingots, ( thats why we have the bloomery in TFC) it makes no sense that stone tools can be attached to handles without the use of some kind of fiber, ( vegetable or animal).

Thats what I mean when I say to add content.

As a server owner I noticed that every time there is a major update the servers get flood with players, and as they experiment the new features the thrill of the new fades and they go away, to play other mods. So when I say to make each age longer, (notice is not just stone age) I don't just mean to create barriers to prevent the player to advance so quickly, but actual content needs to be added, at the same time making it possible to survive the first winters without metal tools.

Is not just a question of play style, rushers can rush through any game, no matter what. But TFC is structure in such a way that it's almost impossible to survive the winter without metal. Survive by suicide does not count.

Do you know what is the first thing I look for on any TFC new world? CLAY. It's such a inversion that is just crazy. Any survivalist will tell you that the first thing to look for is in order: Shelter, water and food.

No I am not proposing for the mod to be turn into a survival simulator, although that would be a good idea for a mod.

My idea is to make the mod longer by adding content and tweaking existing features. It would be a lot of work and it would require a change of shift on the gameplay. I don't think it will happen, no matter what we say here. It's just too many things to change in the mod.

So in the meantime I am tweaking my sever in an attempt to get the most of this wonderfull mod that  the devs made. So once again thank you for all the hard work. and keep getting the mod in the direction that you want, not because is not supposed to be realistic just believable, but because you are the one doing it and if do not get the satisfaction of doing it the way you want, them you better call it a job and get paid.

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I disagree that we should accommodate for all play styles when it comes at the expense of a richer, more rewarding game experience. I believe realism (believability if you want) and variety attracted most of the players to this mod, and the devs should focus on these principles when it comes to adding new stuff. Some players might rush through to steel without bothering with some of the finer details of the mod, but shouldn't a game be designed so that the most enjoyable route for most players is also the most efficient? You have all of these awesome features that took ages to code and implement, that are being sidelined because the game can effectively be played as a metallurgy simulator.

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However all these features don't depend on anything higher than tier 1/2 metals. You could rush through all of these features and completely ignore metallurgy. TFC is balanced for SMP so the various modules need to be able to run in parallel.

Personally I haven't rushed through any of the features, only reaching steel and besides my dogs no max familiarity animals. I like to work on the feature that is most appealing to the moment. Enforcing a particular path would just take away some of my choices. Meaning I lose interest sooner.

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Stone Age Expansion

 

Paleolithic Era (Research)

·   No farming

·   Wooden spears (lower Paleolithic)

·   Un-polished stone tools and spears (Middle & Upper Paleolithic)

·   Nomadic lifestyle

 

Suggestions

·   Remove stone hoes

·   Add wooden spears (Made by sharping a stick with a rock.)

·   Make stone tools require animal sinew (obtained primarily from deer, but also from other animals if needed. Drop rate based on weight.)

·   Make tools unbreakable, but become unusable; therefore if a player as the materials they can replace a tool or repair it. (Repairing done by re-sharping blades against other rocks; chance of breaking when repairing the blade. New meter to show sharpness; tools can be sharpened at any time; but waiting for it to become useless is bad.)

 

Neolithic Era (Research)

·   Farming

·   Polished Stone tools

·   Expanded use of flint and obsidian blades

·   Sedentary lifestyle

 

Suggestions

·   Flint tools made in a similar process knapping process; but requiring a rock on your hot bar. (Flint found in coastal areas near the ocean on beaches on extremely rare occasions, washed up from the ocean; maybe could be respawnable.) (Main flint source would be from chalk deposits that spawn near the surface, but they would be rare.)(Flint no longer found in gravel.) (Flint tools would be slightly stronger and would deal more damage.)

·   Obsidian blades (Weapons such as spear and knife heads only); knapping process requiring a rock on your hot bar. Obsidian spawns in new formations where lava flows meet water. (Glass like shattering sounds; obtained by smashing obsidian blocks with stone/flint hammers.) (Spawning would consume the lava source block as like vanilla Minecraft.) (Obsidian knifes and spears would rival iron made tools on sharpness/damage but not durability.)

·   Stone tool heads or whole tools can be polished using abrasive stones (harder types of stones igneous or metamorphic), this could be done through a crafting window or in a new mini-game where the player must move the polishing stone over the tool to harden and sharpen it. (A similar process could be applied to all forms of tool sharpening.)

·   Hoes could be made out of flint, this is more so to gate the ability to farm; even though stone would suffice in real life.

·   Pottery can cause a slowing effect to keep players from producing heavy pottery until they have settled into an area. (More than 1 piece would cause the slowing so that players could still carry water jugs.) (Or just have the ceramic containers cause the slowing effect to occur.)

 

Late Game Potential Improvements

·   The addition of the sharping system would prolong the life of tools however metal tools would require re-smithing at times if sharping is neglected.

·   Sharping stones could be added such as wet stones, oil stones, and maybe diamond stones (formed by welding diamonds to an iron or steel plate.)

·   Require the usage of wool yarn or jute fibers for tool creation.

 

P.S. Did a moderator move this? or am I just that in need of sleep?

-Tweaked Flint spawning based on additional research.

 

Links to Similar Posts

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/4517-stoning-your-blade/

Edited by Powerman913717
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So you want to remove ability to use ceramic vessels to expand inventory? I'm sorry that is a horrific idea. TFC demands you go exploring, with trips lasting days and covering thousands of blocks. Players need to be able to gather substantial number and variety of items, easily filling your inventory. You would force players to choose to move much slower (I frequently have 25+ pottery items in my inventory) or make the trip 4 times. That adds nothing but drudgery and would cause many players to just give up.

As has been expressed many times; the things you are suggesting appeal to a subset of players and generally would make mod less desirable to the general player. I for one find the Stone Age unappealing, I choose to move into Bronze Age asap and then slowly progress from there. That is not to say your thoughts are wrong and you shouldn't play that way. There are tools available to add some of the features you want to game. Custom Items by Otho allows you to add items to game. This includes tools and armour. Mob properties allows you to add mob drops. You can use TFCOres.cfg to add in ores from other mods or reactivate some unused minerals in TFC code. Using resourcepack. There is now a FFC module, that mostly works, for modtweaker to add recipes to many TFC machines.

There are many things you can do. You just have to sit down and play with them and learn.

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I didn't even consider that for later on, i was just thinking about making the stone age longer...ill remove that from the post. But a lower tier storage item could be added with only three slots instead of four, for the stone age; or for those that travel a lot. With that then the pottery slowness could be kept cause then a lot of it would only be carried within your base, or town.

 

 

 

I feel like the other features would add a lot to the game, and I understand that I could take the time to do that for my own use...but I don't think everyone who may like these ideas will. Not to mention if everyone started using their own custom configs we wouldn't be able to come together on severs as simply.

 

edit: fixed a grammar thing

Edited by Powerman913717
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I feel like the other features would add a lot to the game, and I understand that I could take the time to do that for my own use...but I don't think everyone who may like these ideas will. Not to mention if everyone started using their own custom configs we wouldn't be able to come together on severs as simply.

 

That's exactly what the Addons subforum and the Modpack subforum are for. All it takes is for one player to use mods and configs to create the experience, and then they can post it to share with everyone else who wishes to play the same way.

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