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      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
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dunkleosteus

Body Temperature: Simplified

31 posts in this topic

Who needs all that ugly micromanagement and nastiness I've talked about in the past for body temperature? Let's keep it simple.

 

Is it cold? Your fingers are numb. You're shivering, so your hunger drops a little faster. Those numb fingers might make you a little worse at some more skillful tasks. Are you shivering too much for your health to regen? Don't stress your body so much. Go put on a sweater or sit by that fire.

 

Aw, it's hot outside? You sure are sweaty, you'll have to drink water more often. Wow, you can't run as much in this heat, or swing around that heavy pickaxe for very long. Go sit in the shade or jump in that lake.

 

How did that swim in the arctic ocean feel? Little more respect for polar bears now? Go sit by the fire before you freeze your toes off.

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Sounds amazing! Keep up the great work Dunk, Bioxx and Kitty.

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Sounds amazing! Keep up the great work Dunk, Bioxx and Kitty.

---

ditto.

 

maybe include some death by exposure.

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---

ditto.

 

maybe include some death by exposure.

Probably would have to, at least some basic level of discrete temperature areas. There's some breathing room between "chilly" and "bone-freezingly abysmal"

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well that is a very nice way to put the body temperature, and it follows the real mechanism of body temperature working enough IRL to be believable, just add, like other says, the death factor of being exposed to the elements too hard into the equation et voila.

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I love it. And agree with the concept of death for exposure.

Just want to remind people that the Eskimos have survived in Alaska for hundreds of years, Just by wearing fur and eating a high caloric and fatty food.

The same goes the other way for the equator, there is a huge population there right now and they love it. They use less clothes, and take the siesta by midday.

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Will drinking alcohol help to recover in cold temperatures?

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Will drinking alcohol help to recover in cold temperatures?

alcohol only opens blood vessels, making your extremities feel warmer while in reality it's undoing your body's natural mechanisms that prevent your core body temperature from dropping. Alcohol would change your perception of the cold while making you more perceptible to it.

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guessing that's a round-about "no" but.... assuming cold gives some status effect, alcohol could remove that effect without increasing your body temp. So if you're cold enough to be freezing to death, you're still freezing to death, but before that, you can hold that axe a bit steadier. Unless you drink enough to be drunk, in which case the alcohol has it's own effects...

 

I could play with that :)

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I Never lived in really cold weather place. But if I understand how the metabolism works is that alcohol only will help you if you are already out of the frozen lake.

So if you are freezing and go in the house and light a fire drinking some alcohol will help you because it open your blood vessels and accelerates your metabolism.

But if you are buried in snow drinking will not help you. 

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new impacts on the gameplay, we like that. thx m.dunk!

Edited by landryx
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I Never lived in really cold weather place. But if I understand how the metabolism works is that alcohol only will help you if you are already out of the frozen lake.

So if you are freezing and go in the house and light a fire drinking some alcohol will help you because it open your blood vessels and accelerates your metabolism.

But if you are buried in snow drinking will not help you. 

of course not. What I was suggesting is that if you're trying to light a fire before you actually start to freeze to death, it might give reduce the dexterity penalty enough for you to actually succeed. The fire will save you, the liquor would only mask the symptoms a bit without actually helping with the actual cold, only alleviating the symptoms, possibly making your body temp drop even faster in the process but perhaps letting you avoid a critical fail at a crucial moment.

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of course not. What I was suggesting is that if you're trying to light a fire before you actually start to freeze to death, it might give reduce the dexterity penalty enough for you to actually succeed. The fire will save you, the liquor would only mask the symptoms a bit without actually helping with the actual cold, only alleviating the symptoms, possibly making your body temp drop even faster in the process but perhaps letting you avoid a critical fail at a crucial moment.

I see your point. It might work. Is believable. Don't know if is worth coding.

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of course not. What I was suggesting is that if you're trying to light a fire before you actually start to freeze to death, it might give reduce the dexterity penalty enough for you to actually succeed. The fire will save you, the liquor would only mask the symptoms a bit without actually helping with the actual cold, only alleviating the symptoms, possibly making your body temp drop even faster in the process but perhaps letting you avoid a critical fail at a crucial moment.

I'm not sure if alcohol is really the route to go when you're looking to improve your fine motor control...

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lol. It would certainly require careful balancing of the effects XD

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Hmm.. I was hoping for some positive effect of drinking alcohol in TFC. So it seems there is none. Coding a brief body temperature "increase" followed by a faster body temperature decrease/drunkeness is also out of the question? When out in the wilds it would be neat to have a brief chance to improve survival odds with alcohol before its negative effects take hold. 

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Hmm.. I was hoping for some positive effect of drinking alcohol in TFC. So it seems there is none. Coding a brief body temperature "increase" followed by a faster body temperature decrease/drunkeness is also out of the question? When out in the wilds it would be neat to have a brief chance to improve survival odds with alcohol before its negative effects take hold. 

Never said there wouldn't be any positive effects ;)

 

We haven't decided, but it might give some simple bonuses to certain things- alcohol has been consumed for so many thousands of years because it has such an effect on people.

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I may be misinformed, but as I understand it, the main, original reason alcohol became so prevalent was as a form of preservation. Grape juice doesn't last much longer than grapes, but make wine, and suddenly it will last a very long time, certainly until the next grape harvest. Early alcohol was not as strong as the modern stuff, so when you hear about people in medieval times drinking ale with breakfast, it's not because they were all alcoholics. It was only later that we started making it stronger and drinking it mainly for the intoxicating effects. In those days before refrigeration, it was, relatively speaking, healthy and nutritious, and not just in that "a glass of red wine reduces chance of heart attack" sense.

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I may be misinformed, but as I understand it, the main, original reason alcohol became so prevalent was as a form of preservation. Grape juice doesn't last much longer than grapes, but make wine, and suddenly it will last a very long time, certainly until the next grape harvest. Early alcohol was not as strong as the modern stuff, so when you hear about people in medieval times drinking ale with breakfast, it's not because they were all alcoholics. It was only later that we started making it stronger and drinking it mainly for the intoxicating effects. In those days before refrigeration, it was, relatively speaking, healthy and nutritious, and not just in that "a glass of red wine reduces chance of heart attack" sense.

No, the effects of alcohol have been known for a very long time. It's use as a nutritional supplement was marginal, although in England specifically it was very important (although this wasn't understood at the time) because it killed pathogens in the local water. When England culturally shifted towards drinking tea instead, many people began to get sick from the water. A lot of archaeological evidence suggests that ancient peoples were well aware of the effects of alcohol- one hindu text even discusses the adverse effects of alcohol poisoning. Alcohol was also used medicinally, to help people "forget their misery".

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Who needs all that ugly micromanagement and nastiness I've talked about in the past for body temperature? Let's keep it simple.

 

Is it cold? Your fingers are numb. You're shivering, so your hunger drops a little faster. Those numb fingers might make you a little worse at some more skillful tasks. Are you shivering too much for your health to regen? Don't stress your body so much. Go put on a sweater or sit by that fire.

 

Aw, it's hot outside? You sure are sweaty, you'll have to drink water more often. Wow, you can't run as much in this heat, or swing around that heavy pickaxe for very long. Go sit in the shade or jump in that lake.

 

How did that swim in the arctic ocean feel? Little more respect for polar bears now? Go sit by the fire before you freeze your toes off.

How will temperature effect animals?  Will we have to make armor for different climates for horses?  Can sheep and cows live in desert and arctic climates?  Will animals continue to spawn in the same places (sheep in hills chickens in jungles and warmer latitudes) What about underground?  Will we have to have a change of clothing when we mine?  Will we have to wear warming gear or hats to shield from the sun on top of the armor or instead of the armor?  How will metal armor handle swimming or crossing a river? 

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In real life there are different races of cows for different climates. So we do have cows that are acclimated to cold weather and also for hot weather.

The same goes for sheep, goats and horses.

With that in mind The logical thing would be to either design different skins for the animals spawning on different biomes, or just to ignore the climate issue and have animals spawning everywhere.

I personally don't think is worth the time to code different animals for different climates.

If you see for today's perspective we have cows from Canada to Argentina.

Before white man came to america there were bison from  Canada all the way down to mexico.

The main point for me is that there are adapted animals to every single climate on earth. So unless we add a dozen more domesticated animals to the game we should leave the existing ones spawning everywhere.

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I've been researching the various comments on this forum related to the hot/cold management system.  I'm really looking forward to this feature as I feel it's the best feature which is yet to be implemented.  I like the idea of simplification, although I think what happens "under the hood", can be a bit more complex.  My searching has not found any yet established way upon which the devs have decided to implement the system, and so I'd like to share some of my own thoughts.

 

First, what the player sees and experiences:

 

If player spends extended time in hot/cold weather (less then around 5 or greater then 30 degrees celcius) without a break, a thermometer icon appears in the corner.  This thermometer indicates a problem that needs to be dealt with.  If it's cold, the icon is blue and begins emptying. Or if it's hot the icon is red and begins filling up. At halfway, the player gets slowed movement plus other negative effects. When the thermometer fills or emptys completely, the player dies.  Also, no need for an overly complex clothing system.  Just add an inventory slot for coats (or just forcing the player to use the "back" slot for coats might be interesting.)

 

Player management activities:  As Dunk pointed out, let's avoid micromanagment.  Here is a list of what (in my opinion) is an acceptable amount of management.

 

- Once a year, craft a new coat. (older coats decay with age)- During extreme cold weather, seek warmth once a day for a few hours (even with a coat). Maintain a supply of fuel for fire pits.- During extreme hot weather, jump in water every now and then to cool off.- Stay out of water during extreme cold weather!

 

Now here is an idea for how the system works under the hood (player does not need to worry about this stuff while playing, they just see the icon to tell them when there's a hot/cold problem.  First, some variables: 

 

Ambient temperature (AT):  The temperature outside.Actual temperature (T):  Ambient temperature plus effect of heat sources. (I think this is already implemented)High and low temperature thresholds (HT and LT):  Defines the temperature range at which nothing bad happens.  Can be a dice roll but should generally by 5 and 30 degrees Celcius.Body Condition Index: (BCI):  Under the hood variable which as tracked and used to trigger various effects. 

 

Now for the system:  The BCI is nuetral at zero.  Use the BCI to trigger events, such as when the thermometers appears, when negative effects happen, and when the player dies. 

Rules for th BCI:

 

-When the actual temperature (T) is below the low temperature threshold (LT), the BCI goes down at a rate of (LT-T) per minute. -When the actual temperature (T) is above the high temperature threshold (LT), the BCI starts going up at a rate of (HT-T) per minute. -When the actual temperature (T) is between the LT and HT, the BCI moves towards zero. -When the player jumps in water, instantly lower the BCI by 3600 points. (or some balanced number)

 

Coat Rules:

- Wearing a cheap coat lowers the LT by 2 degrees. (so it lets you both work with lower temperatures and also spend more time in the cold)- Wearing a fancy coat loweres the LT by 5 degrees.

 

Some suggested settings for BCI:

 

BCI of -3600 (12 hours at 0 degrees  with no coat or 20 hours with a cheap coat), the cold thermometer appears.BCI of -7200 (24 hours in 0 degrees with no coat), player dies.BCI of 3600 (12 hours at 35 Celcius), the hot thermometer appears.etc.... you get the idea. All could be changed for game balancing.

 

Any thoughts on this, or is it just mad ramblings of a midget who's been hit in the head too many times during thunderdome fights?  :) 

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I would love to see similar (even worse) effects when it's raining and snowing (outdoors and indoors).

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IMHO minecraft has a limit and stuff like body temps would burst that limit.

 

If you start simulating real physics, for them to make sense the surroundings would need to be more accurate, because it all plays hand in hand.

 

Highest mountain, deepest sea (on earth) would be +8 km -10km (roughly). Take a scale 1:10 and ignore depth you have 800 blocks high.

North to Southpole 20.000 km, same scale 2000km = 2.000.000 m or blocks, now its 60.000.

 

Why does that matter ? Because temperature defines a freckin lot on the planet, if not all. For a planet to be able to sustain life it needs to be within a certain distance to its sun and have a very narrow range of temperatures.

It also requires water and oxigen etc.

If you want, at some point, for plants to adapt to climate and temps, it would be silly if you have "ok" temps at the bottom of a mountain and freezing temps on the mountain with a difference of maybe 50 blocks, thats 10 seconds traveltime. So if my guy is freezing, i just hop down and wait a bit, warm up, and travel up the mountain again. More annoyance than feature.

 

Sure it would be cool if you had to build fur-coats etc to withstand the cold climate of the north but features like that need proper implementation otherwise its just either a nice attempt that doesnt make a dent or a super annoying click-frenzy (changing cloth all the time)

 

 

Another thing about that is that shelters would need extreme calculations to determine the temperature inside. Right now my house has outside temperatures even if the furnace outside ran for a week and the chimney wall is one of the walls of my house (on the other side) so my house should be super cozy warm, but it isnt.

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