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      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
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      Offline Servers

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Bioxx

Torch Discussion

184 posts in this topic

I don't think this will add any fun to the mod. It needs more interesting mechanics like the smithing, not tedium like cutting out rot from cabbage and relighting torches.

The point isn't to increase tedium, but to change the way you play. Working harder to play the same way is the wrong idea

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I don't like the idea of having no permanent light sources. I feel this will limit player creativity significantly. I don't feel this change will make the game better, it will just make things more annoying. Then again if bioxx fixes the nether from crashing my game upon entering I will have no complaints.

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 this will limit player creativity significantly.

explain

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I figured I would throw in my 2 cents.

 

First off, I am new to TFC.  I have been playing minecraft for years, like many of you I am sure, and this mod breathed new life into minecraft for me.  I love it!  I have only been playing for a few weeks but I love the tougher climb up the tech tree even though some things can be a little tedious (like learning to use the prospectors pick well).  I like what you guys have done so take this as the opinion that it is.

 

I am in the "I don't think I like the new torch thing" camp.  I think this will end up making things tedious without any joy or reward for the effort.  At least with the prospectors pick you know that if you preserver you will find that ore but with the torches it will just be this chore to relight everything with no end in site.  I, for one, don't like having everything dark at night.  I like coming up over the mountains at night and seeing my house all lite up; all warm and inviting.  I have never liked the lighting in Minecraft because you tend to have lots of torches places and they aren't the coolest thing, but it is what we have.  I have never made a "torch field" I just use them on my buildings and in the caves/mineshafts I make so that I can see.  I am not the best builder in the world but I like to act like my buildings look cool and part of that is the lighting.  Right now I have a storage place under ground since I didn't just want to build a new building but do a sort of basement thing. Having to light torches just to go down there doesn't sound like fun to me. And just skipping the night, well, if you cant find sheep that makes it much harder.  The first world I played on in TFC I went thousands of blocks in all directions and never found a sheep, I thought the wiki was lying :).... my second world I found the sheep within the first 4 TFC days and all I could think of was to yell at them and say "where the heck were you in the first world?"  I think that if there was something to look forward too, like a semi-permanent lamp of some sort (one that you have to refill with oil and lasted a couple weeks or so), at least is something to shoot for.  The whole time you were dealing with the torches going out, you could at least look forward to the day when you will be able to have lamps and not have to deal with it anymore.  This, I think, would add some more fun since you would have to make the oil to go in the lamp and that could be a new process that includes a new caldron type thing to melt the fat or whatever to get the oil.  You could even have something like the fat providing so much burn time and maybe olive oil (like someone else on this thread suggested) provide a different burn time.  Maybe have multiple sources that each burn for different durations or provide different amounts of light.  If we are just going to have the torches that burn-out could you at least make them have a wider radius of light? On the other had, releasing the burn-out torches now would at least provide time to test them and tweak them before any permanent or semi-permanent lighting was implemented... maybe even providing time to have the (semi)permanent lighting mean more or be more refined. 

 

With all that said, I do like the fact that this will be configurable.  I will most likely play with the setting off or play with the extrafirmacraft mod so that I can at least shoot for the lamps. 

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skyhouse71 Well said. Your point about the fun coming from having a goal in sight to ease the load sums it up perfectly.

Seeing as colored steel buckets provide end-game water solutions to problems on the same level as permanent light sources I don't think it's absurd to ask for a permanent light (infinite glow gourds don't strike me as that solution)

So the trick is to solve the infinite light issue to add difficulty and resource management without making it bleak and pointless chore that the player can never ever escape from.

 

Possible solution in my opinion: Torches that burn out, medium tier metal lanterns that take much longer to go out and finally a blue steel lantern that can be loaded with lava to burn forever without burning down nearby structures.

I think a blue steel lantern as an end-game infinite light source makes sense in the context of what's already there.

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I'm glad that the torches don't disappear when they burn out (otherwise I would have been asking for the ability to create navigational rock piles  ;) ).  I'm sorry if I've missed it, but what happen s when you break a burned out torch? Does it disappear or do you get something back?

 

I agree that it would be nice to have a multiple lighting options with the torch burnout comes out, but I don't have a lot of time to play and I like the early game mechanics, so even if a red/blue steel lantern were available I'd be unlikely to get around to making it.

 

When additional lighting options are added I hope to see a variety of methods (wood, candles, oil, etc.) and placement options. A few suggestions:

  • Bonfire - similar to a campfire it requires fuel, takes up a 2x2 space, and would burn you if you walk through it.  Lights up a very large area (a full chunk?). Benefit is that it could stay lit for more than 2 days and would reduce the need to relight multiple torches in an area.
  • Wax candles - An option that doesn't consume wood, could be available early early to mid game, and might last longer than a torch.
  • Lamps - tiers would be nice so some could be made earlier in the game.
  • Options that can be hung from blocks overhead (ceilings, support beams, etc.)  Chandeliers of torches, candles or oil and lamps would be very helpful to light the middle of large rooms!!
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I'm glad that the torches don't disappear when they burn out (otherwise I would have been asking for the ability to create navigational rock piles  ;) ).  I'm sorry if I've missed it, but what happens when you break a burned out torch? Does it disappear or do you get something back?

 

Breaking a burned out torch gives you nothing back. However, you can re-light a burned out torch by right clicking on it with a lit torch in your hand.

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Ok two things.

First of all, no, the lantern will not be available at release. This is because I want to see through LPs and other sources how players actually adapt to the changes beyond just trying to do the same old routine over and over. I also dont want to add more to my workload before getting 79 shipped. Torches burning out does in fact add something to the game. It adds danger to the mid game which for many people was missing. Yes your mine is now dark after having left it for a few days and denizens of the dark have taken up residence. How do you deal with it? Do you dig a new mineshaft? Do you suit up in armor and take them on? Combat is important and this very simple and fundamental change will force risk taking. If you are afraid of change, the option is there for you the turn this off. 

 

Secondly, For those of you that don't understand the MC lighting engine, you cannot control the light radius of a block beyond just altering the actual light value which for torches is 14. 

 

I will also note here that I don't plan for 80 to take very long. It is my intention to release 80 as soon as we get a good version running on 1.8 with only minor content additions. As we rely on forge, I don't know how long this will take.

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Oh ok, a 'quick' transition from 1.7 to 1.8. Understandable, but hmmm i hope it doesn't put off the few devs who make add ons to TFC, like Extrafirmacraft which has lanterns. I'll see how gameplay works with extinguishable torches. We can always turn the feature off. It is true that i've never seen mobs spawn in the narrow mineshafts i've dug. If that is due to torches, i wouldn't mind battling a congo line of mobs in my mineshafts before getting back to work on mining :D

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Don't forget digging a narrow shaft means it's highly unlikely mobs will spawn there anyway since there are bound to be numerous cave systems dotted around where there is open space and many more blocks for mobs to spawn on than your tiny corridor.

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explain

 

 

Lighting is a pretty huge part of creative minecraft builds. Maybe on a small scale relighting a few torches won't matter too much but as more and more light is involved whether it be more buildings or just larger buildings it becomes not worth the time. I know of a lot of really good builders who just won't build a structure if they can't come up with a good way to light it properly and if it becomes not worth their time to keep it lit, they just won't build it.

 

I'm not saying this permanent light source has to be cheap enough to be placed everywhere like caves, but i want at least something for the creative builds

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I think Dano6655 makes an excellent point here. I can see this change without a feasible semi-permanent light source being particularly onerous to large-scale building on servers.

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As a large build builder, I don't. While yes jack-o-lanterns are a little cheesy, they are still a permanent lighting source and frankly all the lighting options in vanilla look like trash, You just have to get creative with how you do lighting, and if anything pushing people that don't use hidden light methods to use them only increases their overall talent as a builder, because it makes you look at things a different way which is an important skill in any and every creative activity.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but Redstone lanterns are still possible to be made right? I never use them in general so I haven't really looked into it.

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You cannot craft redstone lanterns in TFC survival because you can't go to the nether without crashing, and you need glowstone to make the lamp.

 

However, if you're doing a creative build, there is nothing stopping you from cheating the lantern in.

 

In regards to the larger builds that are done in true survival, the only time that you really have to worry about an area being lit for visibility is at night. Never underestimate the power of windows and skylights, they can add so much to the beauty of a build.

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I am undecided on this issue. I will wait and see how it goes.

So far the most convincing argument I see against is about huge constructions and how they use light. Is not a question of mob spawning, is how the building look.

For example a castle in a town or even in the spawn. Most servers have mob protection anyways but those buildings will not look the same if you remove all light from them.

And nobody wants the job of torch lighter.

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The burned out torches should drop a stick. Seems common sense to me...

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I don't think so. The fire burn out the stick. That's it no more stick.

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it's not like sticks are a scarce and precious resource, either way

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I think the torch changes are an exciting change, and I can't wait to experience how it affects gameplay. Oil lamps sound fastastic, but I agree it would be nice to see how things play out with just torches.

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I'm not asking for torches to remain unchanged, I just want some form of permanent light even if it's expensive. 

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Bioxx and Dunk are currently working hard to finish b79. Always ask for more won't help in any way where we're at. Please.

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I don't think so. The fire burn out the stick. That's it no more stick.

 

Not quite so. Since you can relight it indefinitely (which is  not realistic but believable enough), I'm sure it's believable enough for a burned out torch to count as a stick.

 

I stick to my sticky cause!

 

Maybe we will have more uses for sticks in the future.

You can never be too safe!

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Ok two things.

First of all, no, the lantern will not be available at release. This is because I want to see through LPs and other sources how players actually adapt to the changes beyond just trying to do the same old routine over and over. I also dont want to add more to my workload before getting 79 shipped. Torches burning out does in fact add something to the game. It adds danger to the mid game which for many people was missing. Yes your mine is now dark after having left it for a few days and denizens of the dark have taken up residence. How do you deal with it? Do you dig a new mineshaft? Do you suit up in armor and take them on? Combat is important and this very simple and fundamental change will force risk taking. If you are afraid of change, the option is there for you the turn this off. 

 

Secondly, For those of you that don't understand the MC lighting engine, you cannot control the light radius of a block beyond just altering the actual light value which for torches is 14. 

 

I will also note here that I don't plan for 80 to take very long. It is my intention to release 80 as soon as we get a good version running on 1.8 with only minor content additions. As we rely on forge, I don't know how long this will take.

 

Ok that's fair enough and I appreciate the motive. I won't disable the config option in my LP and see how it goes, not that I expect you'll be watching my B grade little series.

 

I also like the idea of coming back to a darkened Mine and dealing with the squatters. But. I also don't want to lose the simple pleasure of coming home after a long expedition spent huddled in caves and crude shelters to see my homestead in the distance, lights twinkling and beckoning.

 

I play for challenge and earned progression but I also want to see the results of my success echoed in my creations, my progress mirrored in my domain.

 

Folks play for different reasons and have different ideas of tedium and success. For me the middle game is the time when I'm making meaningful and positive changes to my environment and at the end game I wish to be lord of my domain. LOL. (which is a good time for disaster to strike btw)     

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Will you be able to hold a lit torch (e.g dynamic lighting)?

It's just in the test I was doing using the UnlitTorch mod they feel REALLY important when revisiting a mine for example. The torch still burns through its 2 hours while holding it.

Obviously while you're holding a torch, you're not holding a weapon too, so that's a good trade off I think.

 

It's quite spooky and cool going down a pitch black mine with ONLY my held torch light showing maybe 6 blocks ahead of me.

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Will you be able to hold a lit torch (e.g dynamic lighting)?

It's just in the test I was doing using the UnlitTorch mod they feel REALLY important when revisiting a mine for example. The torch still burns through its 2 hours while holding it.

Obviously while you're holding a torch, you're not holding a weapon too, so that's a good trade off I think.

 

It's quite spooky and cool going down a pitch black mine with ONLY my held torch light showing maybe 6 blocks ahead of me.

 

I believe Bioxx said at one point that he has no intentions of adding in dynamic lighting in TFC, especially because there is already a mod for it that does it well. However, if there are any compatibility issues that make it so you can't use both dynamic lighting and TFC, please let us know so we can figure out the problem. Getting TFC to be compatible with those kinds of mods is much higher priority than adding the mod's functionality directly into TFC.

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