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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."

29 posts in this topic

Ok so....what makes the night dangerous...answer,  hostile mobs. Questions...why do we need idiotic hostile mobs popping in just because it gets dark!? I am sure this august community and the game developers can come up with something better. Hows about some ideas for dealing with the root of the problem rather than the branch.

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I'm sorry, but how is that argument straw man? Forcing a level of difficulty that you desire onto the entire player-base in hopes of bettering the game through emergent gameplay is not a realistic option in the majority of cases. For example, take the Ultra Hardcore style of gameplay. For players who believe that there should be no natural health regeneration, and in some cases only 1 life per world, they are more than welcome to play Minecraft in that way. However, not all players are forced to do so and can easily play using a different level of difficulty.

 

Appeal to popularity can never be dismissed in regards to game development. If you piss off the majority of the player-base with something new, it can result in the death of the community.

 

Limiting the ability to pass the night as the game currently stands isn't going to change anything. Players who think it is too hard are simply going to dig themselves a little safe hole, and then alt-tab while they wait for night to pass. Or they might switch to just playing on peaceful. It doesn't fix a single part of the problem, and in essence can actually make it worse.

 

The first step to expanding night is to add new features and possibilities of things to do during the night. At that point, players who usually use the bed to skip the night, or just dig themselves a safe hole are much less likely to do so. The problem becomes moot because more and more players stop using that functionality completely by their own will, but the option is still there for those who do decide they wish to use it.

I'd like to discuss a few more things regarding what you're saying. 

 

I didn't make this point in my previous mention of the appeal to popularity part of your post. Yes, you can destroy your community if you piss off the player base, but changing some aspect of a game almost never does that unless it explicitly reveals some underlying extremism behind the game or the game developers opinions (ie if you support naziism in a direct and nonambiguous manner with clear intentions), or the change is so dramatic that it hardly resembles the game it used to be. You may make some players unhappy initially with that feature, but that does not mean they will stop playing the game. To explain what i mean I'll draw an analogy: I have disliked nearly every single update of minecraft since 1.0.0 because in almost every single update since then the features that have been added have not added a significant amount of gameplay in any way, but i still play it. When adding a new feature in particular loss of the player base is almost never an issue, because almost nobody will go from enjoying a game to actually hating the game inherently without a serious change in the direction of it's development. Bad features don't make a game bad, every game has them, and players don't stop playing just because they don't like a single thing, but poor gameplay and bad direction of development does. 

 

It is also important to note that I still do not think that removing night as it stands will make the gameplay better, but that doesn't mean it's a bad development step right now. Development is, by definition, a process, and so removing a feature now that may make the game less enjoyable now can still make sense in the long run if it's purpose is to facilitate the expansion of an aspect of gameplay that said feature conflicts with (as to why the CHOICE of whether or not to sleep actually still conflicts with gameplay see my other post) In fact one of the biggest problems with popular input when it comes to development is that players frequently seek instant gratification from updates and get upset when a feature seems bad, when that feature may very well be part of the implementation of a much broader system that adds a large amount of gameplay value that they are not aware of because they are not privy to the specifics of the development plan. If developers cave in to these complaints they shoot themselves in the foot by completely breaking apart a plan that may very well have been excellently executed, but which now falls short because one important feature can no longer play it's part. A good example of something like this is with rock salt in TFC. People complained constantly about the lack of rock salt and frequently requested simplifying salt by allowing it to be gathered from oceans, but the plan was to implement it the way it is purposefully as a useful rarity in the context of numerous other methods of preservation that were to be added later. It seemed like a poorly implemented feature, but people only saw an incomplete portion of the whole. Luckily in this case the dev did not cave. 

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Because beds have been around so long, I understand a large part of the playerbase considers them a core part of the game. However, I do recall the earlier days of the game before beds were an addition. You had to build little depots and secondary bases every so often to hide inside when night came, otherwise you'd be completely obliterated. There was tension in daytime travel from the mobs that had appeared overnight, requiring you to pay close attention to your surroundings and listen for the footsteps of nearby mobs. Anything that enhances a player's engagement in the game is a net positive, whether or not they happen to think it's enjoyable at the time. The best games are the ones you might rage at now and then, but you just keep going back to again and again to throw yourself wholeheartedly into.

 

 

 

And honestly, do not sit here and tell me BTW somehow proves that it makes the game more fun to all players to take the bed away. BTW players are a tiny subset of the modded-client minecraft world, which is a tiny subset of the pc minecraft world, which is a tiny subset of the minecraft player community as a whole. And among that tiny subset of a tiny subset of a specific demographic, the single most common request and complaint is so-called "hardcore beds." (:edit: Well, second most common, I was forgetting Hardcore Spawn) 

You're right Gopher, he didn't prove anything with that, he merely explained his earlier point. You on the other hand assumed that his analogy was an argument and strawmanned him by attacking said analogy which makes your argument invalid since you tried to prove an entirely different point. Accordingly your argument is actually that not all players enjoy BTW, nothing else. I agree with that, but that has nothing to do with this discussion. You seem to have missed his point entirely. His point was that when a game engages the player it is a good thing. Everything else was explanatory analogy. You also seem to not understand the difference between correlation and causation. You have OBSERVED that the most common complaints are about hardcore beds and Hardcore spawn, this does not prove in any way that taking beds away makes the game less fun. There are several reasons for this: Firstly, these complaints are collected from a convenient sample and are likely to have a very significant level of bias. That bias is there because people who speak out on complaints are statistically likely to have far stronger opinions than those who choose to complain in silent. Secondly, you cannot generalize such an observation to anything other than BTW itself because BTW is a special case. Furthermore your point that the biggest complaints from BTW players are hardcore beds and Hardcore spawn is ridiculous because if they don't represent the demographic of BTW players who do enjoy said features in any way shape or form, for all you know they could be less then a tenth of a percent of the demographic, and you can't generalize from a tenth of a percent of a demographic to the whole demographic if the way you chose that tenth of a percent is through the feature you are trying to generalize to that demographic. That's circular reasoning at its finest right there.

 

As to his point, that when a game engages a player it is good, this is true, because it is self-evident. Personally I'm not making my argument from the standpoint of someone who would prefer beds were removed because of BTW, but because I remember the days before the bed in vanilla minecraft and see so much potential for the same types of emergent gameplay to arise in TFC because there is more encouragement for the type of gameplay that led to the emergent gameplay we saw before beds in vanilla than there ever was in vanilla. 

 

 

I understand all of that, believe it or not. Ultimately, beds are optional. For the players who don't WANT to encounter hostile mobs, adding gameplay elements that attempt to reward them or, worse, FORCE them to run around at night will NOT make them enjoy the game more. It will make them switch to peaceful and complain on the forums that they can't sleep through the night anymore.

 

If you don't want to encounter hostile mobs then why would you be playing on anything other than peaceful? That is precisely what peaceful is for.  Referring to the use of the word FORCE, did you know that TFC FORCES you to drink water? Do you realize that TFC FORCES you to store food for winter if you're in temperate climates? Do you understand that TFC rewards killing hostile mobs? Your point is moot because FORCING someone to do something in a game isn't inherently bad. You also are making your own argument in your next paragraph a hypocrisy as well, since these players who don't like encountering hostile mobs in TFC are also a tiny subset of the modded-client minecraft world, which is a tiny subset of the pc minecraft world, which is a tiny subset of the minecraft player community as well. You simply can't make those types of generalizations from that type of data. 

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And locking the thread because it's dissolved into nothing more than pedantic circles.

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