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noname_42

Localized weather integration

29 posts in this topic

What is "Localized weather"?

 

Localized weather is a mod (which can be found here) that changes the way how weather works. Rain and thunder are no longer global which means player A can experience different weather than player B. Clouds (which look pretty cool) are generating through moisture of surronding biomes and their temperature. For example if there's a swamp biome near a desert it's very likely you'll see some intense storms.

 

There are also new storms like high wind, hail and even tornados and cyclones with different strength and wind is affecting particles.

Tornados do not completely destroy whole enviroments (they remove grass from dirt which will regrow, the destroy leaves and sometimes whole trees which can be replanted and tornados destroy your buildings if they are not fortified)

The mod also adds some new blocks like an anemometer, a wind vane and even a weather machine and a weather forecast (and more).

 

 

Why integrate it in TFC?

 

1. I think the current weather system is not very believable.

2. It would be possible to make a connection between weather, season, and coordinate. (e.g. tropical cyclones in tropical areas, more storms in fall)

3. It adds an incredible atmosphere as you always look up in the sky and get a little shock if you see dark (rotating) clouds.

4. Of course the weather machine or the weather deflector are not very TFC-like. These aren't realy necessary anyway and they destroy

the atmosphere somewhat. I think recipes for the anemometer and the wind vane are enough. (Maybe enable weather deflector as OP item to protect server buildings from storms)

5. Tornados and cyclones should be a lot rarer and more effected by moisture and temperature (so TFC does not lose it's focus) Maybe storms would be disabled entirely in mild biomes but very intense in tropical areas.

6. Needless to say the whole thing could be disabled in the configuration

 

 

Why not use both mods seperate / Why is integration necessary?

 

1. Recipes are required for anemometer and wind vane

2. Clouds are too low (because TFC terrain is higher) can be adjusted in config

3. hail is not displayed correctly

4. terrain is not always effected as it should be (grass doesn't disappear because of storms)

 

What do you guys think? ^_^

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>1. Recipes are required for anemometer and wind vane

 

Minetweaker 3 can do this easily

 

>2. Clouds are too low (because TFC terrain is higher)

 

A compatibility patch is probably the best for this. Alternatively you could suggest to the mod author add a configuration for cloud height. This setting would also be useful for Highlands and ATG players that change the terrain height

 

>3. hail is not displayed correctly

 

You might want to explain what is wrong here. Have you confirmed its different when not using TFC?

 

>4. terrain is not always effected as it should be (grass doesn't disappear because of storms)

 

A compatibility patch is probably the best for this (the mod assumes Vanilla rather than TFC grass).

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There is a mod, I'm not certain which one it is, but it does fix the not affecting terrain thing already, it's something along the minetweaker line and I think it fixes the cloud height thing as well. If I had to make a guess it's probably the coros util thing.

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There's no integration required, and, frankly, compatibility addon is required not from TFC, really, but from Weather2 developers. About the only thing TFC can do in this scenario is provide some information on current temperature and moisture - things that weather mods seems to have hardcoded in (I didn't research so I might be wrong on that one), but even then it's mostly a common-API- and/or reflective-callable-type thing, and a bulk of work should still be done from the weather mod side of thing.

 

Another thing I would very like you guys to understand:

The beauty of a system we currently have with Minecraft modding is in its modular nature. YOU decide what will build your Minecraft playtime experience, not some other guy who thinks he knows better than you what kind of stuff you'll like - the part that made me not like Flower Child as a designer, but that's beyond the point. By suggesting TFC devs to incorporate this and this and that too you not only demand them doing way more work than is required to have "this and this and that too" in your game of Minecraft (which is the main reason for them not doing these sorts of thing, if you look from their perspective), but also denying the very best thing Minecraft modding has going for it.

 

Also, is it just me, or weather effects look too detailed for Minecraft?

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There's no integration required, and, frankly, compatibility addon is required not from TFC, really, but from Weather2 developers. About the only thing TFC can do in this scenario is provide some information on current temperature and moisture - things that weather mods seems to have hardcoded in (I didn't research so I might be wrong on that one), but even then it's mostly a common-API- and/or reflective-callable-type thing, and a bulk of work should still be done from the weather mod side of thing.

 

Another thing I would very like you guys to understand:

The beauty of a system we currently have with Minecraft modding is in its modular nature. YOU decide what will build your Minecraft playtime experience, not some other guy who thinks he knows better than you what kind of stuff you'll like - the part that made me not like Flower Child as a designer, but that's beyond the point. By suggesting TFC devs to incorporate this and this and that too you not only demand them doing way more work than is required to have "this and this and that too" in your game of Minecraft (which is the main reason for them not doing these sorts of thing, if you look from their perspective), but also denying the very best thing Minecraft modding has going for it.

 

All of my "^ This!"

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I've always thought TFC was one of the most natural mods I've ever played. I'd try to incorporate this mod myself if there weren't any incapability issues.

Bu Transcengopher is right about it being on the weather mod developers to make it more configurable. It's rather unfortunate.

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What about talking to the Localized Weather devs? Did someone tried already? Is on their part, maybe they're wiling to put TFC compatibility on their to-do list...

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There's no integration required, and, frankly, compatibility addon is required not from TFC, really, but from Weather2 developers. About the only thing TFC can do in this scenario is provide some information on current temperature and moisture - things that weather mods seems to have hardcoded in (I didn't research so I might be wrong on that one), but even then it's mostly a common-API- and/or reflective-callable-type thing, and a bulk of work should still be done from the weather mod side of thing.

 

Another thing I would very like you guys to understand:

The beauty of a system we currently have with Minecraft modding is in its modular nature. YOU decide what will build your Minecraft playtime experience, not some other guy who thinks he knows better than you what kind of stuff you'll like - the part that made me not like Flower Child as a designer, but that's beyond the point. By suggesting TFC devs to incorporate this and this and that too you not only demand them doing way more work than is required to have "this and this and that too" in your game of Minecraft (which is the main reason for them not doing these sorts of thing, if you look from their perspective), but also denying the very best thing Minecraft modding has going for it.

 

Also, is it just me, or weather effects look too detailed for Minecraft?

Placing all responsibility with other mod makers is very limiting; why should other mods strive for TFC compatibility when most of the player base uses vanilla?  If TFC truly wants to be compatible with other mods, effort needs to be made on our end to utilize APIs (when availible), request required hooks from the mod authors, etc.  If not, stating that a goal of TFC is compatibility but placing all responsibility on others is disingenuous.

 

Obviously other mods shouldn't be required for TFC, but effort should be made to make them run out of the box.  If not, compatibility is simply not going to happen.

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Placing all responsibility with other mod makers is very limiting; why should other mods strive for TFC compatibility when most of the player base uses vanilla?  If TFC truly wants to be compatible with other mods, effort needs to be made on our end to utilize APIs (when availible), request required hooks from the mod authors, etc.  If not, stating that a goal of TFC is compatibility but placing all responsibility on others is disingenuous.

 

Obviously other mods shouldn't be required for TFC, but effort should be made to make them run out of the box.  If not, compatibility is simply not going to happen.

 

Normally I would agree with your statements here that it shouldn't be the mod authors responsibility to make thier mod compatible with total conversions that are incompatible with most mods, but in this case transcengopher/Kitty are right

 

Its not unreasonable for the LW mod to be compatible with any mod that modifies the terrain height. Its not just TFC that does this. And making a pull request (or feature request if they don't have a github) to include TFC grass in the storm code is not unreasonable. People make similar requests for modded metals/stone/wood all the time.

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Normally I would agree with your statements here that it shouldn't be the mod authors responsibility to make thier mod compatible with total conversions that are incompatible with most mods, but in this case transcengopher/Kitty are right

 

Its not unreasonable for the LW mod to be compatible with any mod that modifies the terrain height. Its not just TFC that does this. And making a pull request (or feature request if they don't have a github) to include TFC grass in the storm code is not unreasonable. People make similar requests for modded metals/stone/wood all the time.

Yeah, I was mostly just speaking in general.  Nearly every time I suggest changes to compatibility I get the response that it's the other mod author's responsibility to use TFC's API, even for fairly basic things.  This attitude would be fine if compatibility were not a stated goal of the mod, but it is.  

 

For most mod authors, compatibility with TFC is not exactly high on their list.  If we want other mods to work with TFC, it's on us to make it happen.

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Yeah, I was mostly just speaking in general.  Nearly every time I suggest changes to compatibility I get the response that it's the other mod author's responsibility to use TFC's API, even for fairly basic things.  This attitude would be fine if compatibility were not a stated goal of the mod, but it is.  

 

For most mod authors, compatibility with TFC is not exactly high on their list.  If we want other mods to work with TFC, it's on us to make it happen.

 

I suspect the TFC mod compatibility stance isn't purposely dishonest, just completely misguided. I suspect its actually a reaction to FlowerChild's stance of being purposely incompatible with everything. So the devs can say "we are not like Better Than Wolves, we are made with compatibility in mind because we use Forge." Mean while they rescale damage/health/block resistance, remove the nether/the end from the game etc for no good reason.

 

Yes they don't make TFC purposely incompatible with other mods. But their mod compatibility stance is equivalent to FlowerChilds until around BTW version 4.0. He used to expect mod authors to make thier mods BTW compatible so thier users wouldn't have to abandon BTW to play thier mods. He thought people wouldn't want to play Minecraft without his mod. He was wrong

 

Many people want TFC to be THE early game tech mod. The TFC devs made its far less work to recreate TFC features in other mods than it is to make TFC work with other mods. The end result is that all the TFC features non-TFC players want will be eventually be made into other mods. Many of them probably won't be as detailed as they are in TFC, but that won't be important to most people

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to be fair, almost every mod developer I've seen have these discussions tends to take the same stance, and you get these little face-offs where devs on both sides say it's up to the other to be compatible with their mod. (The exceptions I can think of, where a mod developer really tried to make compatibility with everything their personal responsibility, have mostly burned out and abandoned their mods as a result.)

 

Sometimes one side is absolutely right and justified. Sometimes, a third mod can legitimately and fairly easily bridge the gap between the two. More often, it would in fact take work from both sides to make proper compatibility practical, and a mod-in-the-middle trying to bridge them would have to make invasive hacks (a'la gregtech's more developer-beloved features) into one or both to make it work. I've not looked at the source for these either of the mod in question here, but if the dynamic weather mod doesn't even have a way to configure cloud height, that's a strong indicator it is not exactly striving for compatibility in a very general sense, as tfc is not the only mod that makes changes that would necessitate this.

 

It's tempting to judge the devs in question, or to take sides and judge one on behalf of the other, but the annoying truth is this is just something that's gonna happen in mod communities. The tfc team can, and as I understand it, plans to, make changes in the future that will decrease the compatibility issues, but I assume they plan to do so only in ways that don't compromise their own visions for what they want TFC to be, and that's understandable. From their perspective, this is one of a long list of mods that tfc isn't compatible with, and they can't address even a large fraction of them without giving up on any work on actual tfc features and devoting themselves entirely to keeping up with other mods' changes. Unfortunately, while tfc compatibility for each of these mods might be a much smaller task for it's developer, tfc is, again, just one of the mods they may have compatibility issues with on their ends.

 

 

tl;dr: Modded gaming is an imperfect world. :shrug:

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. From their perspective, this is one of a long list of mods that tfc isn't compatible with, and they can't address even a large fraction of them without giving up on any work on actual tfc features and devoting themselves entirely to keeping up with other mods' changes.

 

This topic has been derailed by Tsuarok and I considering the compatibility issues starting in post #8 are no longer related to the localized weather mod. Its unfortunate that Tsuarok and I chose to derail this topic with mod compatibility issues unrelated to the localized weather mod considering mod compatibility with the Localized weather mod should be on the LW devs and not the TFC devs.

 

Most of the time mod incompatibility is due dimensional/health/damage/blockresistance incompatibility caused by the TFC devs for no good reason. Thats the problem irritating Tsuarok and I. Neither Tsuarok or I should have derailed this topic, and I apologize for my part in the derailment. Its a serious problem that needs to be addressed, but its off topic here

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This topic has been derailed by Tsuarok and I considering the compatibility issues starting in post #8 are no longer related to the localized weather mod. Its unfortunate that Tsuarok and I chose to derail this topic with mod compatibility issues unrelated to the localized weather mod considering mod compatibility with the Localized weather mod should be on the LW devs and not the TFC devs.

 

Most of the time mod incompatibility is due dimensional/health/damage/blockresistance incompatibility caused by the TFC devs for no good reason. Thats the problem irritating Tsuarok and I. Neither Tsuarok or I should have derailed this topic, and I apologize for my part in the derailment. Its a serious problem that needs to be addressed, but its off topic here

My bad.

 

On topic:  It looks like a really cool mod, and probably playable if the height were adjustable.  Despite what I'd said earlier, I have to agree that there's little TFC should do in this regard.  Either a compatibility addon or an adjustable height from the mod author would be needed.  It should remain a separate mod, but I'd definitely check it out.

 

It might be cool to have TFC add some code that changed the way some plants behave based on the weather if the mod is installed.

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Placing all responsibility with other mod makers is very limiting; why should other mods strive for TFC compatibility when most of the player base uses vanilla?  If TFC truly wants to be compatible with other mods, effort needs to be made on our end to utilize APIs (when availible), request required hooks from the mod authors, etc.  If not, stating that a goal of TFC is compatibility but placing all responsibility on others is disingenuous.

 

Obviously other mods shouldn't be required for TFC, but effort should be made to make them run out of the box.  If not, compatibility is simply not going to happen.

 

If compatibility with other mod would've lied on TFC developers, I wouldn't write that post implying responsibility on LW devs. However, that's not the case.

You are terribly wrong by trying to generalize my opinion based on a single instance where I'm right to have the exact one I stated.

 

It's not TFC devs responsibility to gut the LW mod and make its cloud height adjustable. Nor is't their responsibility to add config options for LW mod to make it recognize other mods' blocks.

 

Compatibility with other mods is more tricky thing and would have to have its own thread, tbh. And even though I'm no TFC dev, I'm pretty sure I can easily explain why the < modname> is incompatible on case-by-case basis, and what steps should be taken to ensure compatibility.

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If compatibility with other mod would've lied on TFC developers, I wouldn't write that post implying responsibility on LW devs. However, that's not the case.

You are terribly wrong by trying to generalize my opinion based on a single instance where I'm right to have the exact one I stated.

 

It's not TFC devs responsibility to gut the LW mod and make its cloud height adjustable. Nor is't their responsibility to add config options for LW mod to make it recognize other mods' blocks.

 

Compatibility with other mods is more tricky thing and would have to have its own thread, tbh. And even though I'm no TFC dev, I'm pretty sure I can easily explain why the < modname> is incompatible on case-by-case basis, and what steps should be taken to ensure compatibility.

 

Yeah, like I'd said in the previous post, you are right.  I wasn't really generalizing your opinion honestly; I've heard that opinion from many people, and in many cases (though not this one) it's not appropriate.  Just frustrated at hearing yet again that compatibility is someone else's responsibility.  I'm afraid I accidentally derailed the thread.

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On topic:  It looks like a really cool mod, and probably playable if the height were adjustable.  Despite what I'd said earlier, I have to agree that there's little TFC should do in this regard.  Either a compatibility addon or an adjustable height from the mod author would be needed.  It should remain a separate mod, but I'd definitely check it out.

 

It might be cool to have TFC add some code that changed the way some plants behave based on the weather if the mod is installed.

I found this mod through a private pack someone else made, but when I was playing the cloud height seemed perfectly fine. I have a habit of building on top of the tallest thing I can find, so there must be a way to adjust it somewhere. and from what I garnered elsewhere is that the blocks thing is all configurable as far as I can tell. There are a few files in my mod folder that I really and truely don't have a clue what they are doing, so it is possible it is via third party fiddling that this guy got everything working.

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- adding recipes would need 5 minutes maximum

- LW is highly configurable to grant compatibility as far as it can, however the option "Cloud0_layer_height" seems to be broken (or i'm using it wrong)

- LW uses the ice texture for hail. Don't know why it doesn't work with TFC

- adding the new grass ids for LW would be no problem

 

Please not that fixing this would be only the first step of an integration. There's a huge difference between integration and compatibility. As I mentioned before the TFC values like temperature, N-S coordinate and biome information would open up a lot of new possibilities for LW. Of course this is mostly LW sided but seriously why should they add compatibility if there is no cooperation from TFC.

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Please not that fixing this would be only the first step of an integration.

 

And as stated many times before, integration is extremely unlikely to happen. TFC will go as far as compatibility, but that's about it. Its a large enough mod as it is, and trying to integrate somebody else's mod into our codebase is honestly kind of a dick move because they put so much effort into it.

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There are plans for TFC to have it's own weather system, as the vanilla one isn't adequate. The tornadoes and weather-specific items are a bit much though- I don't think those provide a useful challenge to TFC and would feel out of place in the theme of the mod. I'm all for the "mercy-of-the-elements" feel, but only so far as that means thunderstorms, blizzards or droughts. We don't need random "your entire house is gone now, too bad" events.

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There are plans for TFC to have it's own weather system, as the vanilla one isn't adequate. The tornadoes and weather-specific items are a bit much though- I don't think those provide a useful challenge to TFC and would feel out of place in the theme of the mod. I'm all for the "mercy-of-the-elements" feel, but only so far as that means thunderstorms, blizzards or droughts. We don't need random "your entire house is gone now, too bad" events.

Brilliant! I agree that there isn't a place for the over-the-top and destructive weather. TFC is the new MC Vanilla for me =)

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-no danger -> no atmosphere, After some time it would be like in vanilla where rain is just annoying

-tornados would only occur in certain climates (it's up to you if you want some danger or not)

-stone is not affected by tornados so if you build an adequate house and barn for your animals there's no problem

-making your own weather system is well and good but why creating a new one if there is already one? That's why I didn't say "hey owner of mod make better wether mor fast cauze now is borin". You could save your time for other things.

 

If you think it's out of place in the theme of the mod that's ok becaue i love your mod and you know best how it should develop further :)

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they'll make their own for the same reason they made their own hunger system instead of using the built-in one - because that's the point of modding, to make the game what you want it to be, not to settle for what someone else - whether the original creators or another modder  - want it to be.

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In addition to that, I strongly doubt that the author of that mod would be ok with us just copying all of his hard work and all of the time he has spent developing that mod, and just putting it in our code. Updating would also be a nightmare, because every time that mod updated, we would have to include the updates in our code, and then release another version of TFC with those updates.

 

It really just isn't how mods work. Rarely is it ever the case that one mod integrates another mod almost entirely into itself.

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In addition to that, I strongly doubt that the author of that mod would be ok with us just copying all of his hard work and all of the time he has spent developing that mod, and just putting it in our code. Updating would also be a nightmare, because every time that mod updated, we would have to include the updates in our code, and then release another version of TFC with those updates.

 

It really just isn't how mods work. Rarely is it ever the case that one mod integrates another mod almost entirely into itself.

 

I'm guessing noname_42 wasn't talking about copying the code - more like bridging the gap with integration patches so two teams could work on their thing, and these two things combined were making both things more awesome - the usual thing with most compatible mods out there. I really don't see what's so special should be about TFC's own weather system compared to LW one, given proper compatibility.

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