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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Udary

A use for Galena

31 posts in this topic

"In some areas galena contains about 1-2 percent silver. In these areas the silver byproduct far outweighs the main lead ore in revenue. Galena deposits often also contain significant amounts of silver as included silver sulfide mineral phases or as limited solid solution within the galena structure. These argentiferous galenas have long been the most important ore of silver."
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galena
 
I was reading what this currently useless mineral actually was and noticed it contains silver! I always find silver so rare, so I'd be happy to get a few % out of the TONS of Galena I always find. Not sure how you'd do it in the mechanics of the game. Maybe add a refining mechanism for liquid metals, to be able to split them? 100 Liquid Galena into a "thingy" can be refined into 2 ingot molds making 5 silver and 95 lead??
 
"Extracting silver from galena:
 
...Another way would be to solve the galena in acid or a solution, then putting a coal (as cathode pole) and a copper (as anode pole) stick into the solution. If you put the cables at a car battery, the silver will get attracted to the copper stick. This is used as galvanic elements for coatings of e.g. Zinc on iron and for refinement of copper or silver. "
 
If we could make batteries, with Galena, and a pair of rods, copper and coal/charcoal we could potentially extract the silver from this ore. Use a knife on a coated rod to make silver flakes and a clean rod. Use a large ceramic vessel as the container, a barrel wouldn't really work.
 
Recipes:
 - Vessel + galena + filled water/vinegar bucket = Battery + empty bucket
 - Large ceramic Vessel + something = Anodising vessel (not sure what the something is yet, maybe the battery?)
 - Copper rod Mold - via pottery same process, just new recipe
 - Coal/Charcoal + knife = Carbon rod 
 
Anodising vessel would have a UI allowing for 2 rods and a battery and contain an acidic liquid (vinegar) + ore.
 
Seal and 4 hours later you'd exhaust the ore and have a coated rod.
 
Recipes: 
 - Coated rod + knife = Carbon rod + silver flakes
 
Silver flakes could then be melted in a vessel or crucible and poured into a mold. Amounts would be maybe 5-10% of the original ore? 1 unit of silver from a standard Galena?
 
Is this OP?
 - Not sure what would be considered OP! Flex the amounts of ore returned from the source ore? 2-3%? 10-20%?
 - The Battery could potentially die out and have to be recharged or remade?
 - Flex the time for the sealing process.
 - Have a  chance to break the carbon rod on the scraping process?

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Galena actually used to be both Lead and Silver in TFC, but the dual ore code was just so messy that it was removed.

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This was before I got into TFC, i'm pretty new in that I only started in v78. I'm not surprised the dual ore idea was dropped, when I was thinking about the idea I couldn't imagine how you'd be able to make 2 ores in 1 vessel, unless they had 2 slots to add molds. With a crucible...

 

It seems a shame then to still have it with no use... I was hoping this could revive it and open a few new ideas? I'd like to see uses for platinum too and the other unused minerals, but this thread is about Galena, if I have any bright ideas about the others I'll add new threads. I have another use for Batteries too, but let see what happens to the torch debate first.  ;)

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I would think that this would too hard to do, though i dont much about programing. I would think that you would first be able to melt out the lead at some relativly low heat level, then take the rest and melt out the silver at a higher level.

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I would think having a 2 stage smelting process would be harder, apart from the UI for the anodising vessel, everything else is already being done in TFC. Sealing a barrel and the new large vessel is already there, most of the rest is just new recipes. I'm not saying it trivial, but I have tried to follow the practises already in TFC.

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Unfortunately, most of the historical uses of lead or lead compounds seem to involve direct contact with food, drinking water or skin. Other than that it could be used for decorative objects, pigments and waterproofing.

 

Perhaps we can use it in the recipe for white dye? It makes more sense than using bone.

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To juggle the idea of batteries, for anyone that's seen mythbusters. They literally made a very weak battery out of clay vessils, and it did work for oxydization.Personally, I'm no expert on how alloys work, but it would be pretty nice to see a way to use something like a crucible to seperate alloys to their base elements. Galena in that case could just be considered a nature made alloy that you'd have to melt down.This idea being for waaaay into the late gameplay due to it's complexity, but that's just my opinion.

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I think that a use for lead could be as a 'poison'. It would be really interesting to be able to grind down Galena into Lead Dust, and then add that to food as an 'additive' like Salt or Pickling. That could lead to really interesting mechanics for multiplayer. It would probably be visible on the tool-tip, but if you weren't careful... 

 

EDIT: It's effect would be to increase the speed at which your nutrition decreased at a drastic amount. 

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Unfortunately, most of the historical uses of lead or lead compounds seem to involve direct contact with food, drinking water or skin. Other than that it could be used for decorative objects, pigments and waterproofing.

 

Perhaps we can use it in the recipe for white dye? It makes more sense than using bone.

Well, the Romans built an entire Empire with it, and *mostly* didn't die of lead poisoning...I was thinking of a use for lead, since I keep running across it and being disappointed.  "[email protected]#%, just more galena"...What about lead pipes?  A simple clay mold, end product is a 1-block lead pipe that puts a water source-block at end 'B' if there's a water source-block or another water-filled lead pipe on end 'A'.  The line of pipe needs to trace it's way back to an original water source-block.... cut the pipe, and the "disconnected" section loses it's water block, the 'created' water block moving to the new 'end'.It would be really nice to be able to irrigate fields before you make it all the way up the metal ladder to Red Steel.... or be able to pipe in water to a building or town square & be able to fill your jug from it instead of schlepping down to the river every day or hoping for rain to fill your water barrels.  Edit:  The existing Minecraft water system makes an aqueduct more or less useless, since only *source* blocks can be used to fill buckets / barrels / jugs, and as irrigation it would only work on a series of terraces no more than 7 blocks wide.

 

And yes, white pigment is the other historical ancient use for lead that might be appropriate for TFC.  (Even I am not willing to go so far as the historically accurate uses of food preservative & seasoning.)

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Galena can be used as a pigment, but it's actually a black pigment. It was actually commonly used as a kohl in Ancient Egypt at some points. 

 

Lead white does exist of course, but that's another mineral altogether.

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as galena is a lead ore maybe it could be used to make sinkers that add an increase for fishing? For those that don't go fishing "sinkers" are used at the end of the fishing line but above the hook to help keep bait from floating making it more likely that fish will see the bait.  I have no idea how that would work in TFC, but it's thought. Maybe we could make them using clay molds and then just craft the sinker(s) with the fishing pole to attach it?

Edited by Remnant
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I like the idea of lead pipes moving water. A series of lead tuyeres leading from a source block could output a flowing water block at their termination point (not at the highest flow level because people like me would trick it into producing source blocks). The position of the termination point must have a Y value less than or equal to the Y value of the source block from which the pipe started.  This would allow for both horizontal movement and U shaped siphons which are both well within the realm of believablity.If the devs wanted to go nuts with plumbing, some lead plates and leather could make a hydrolic ram to push water uphill under its own inertia.Alternatively a line of up to 12 pipes leading from a barrel full of water might place no water block of any kind but spread irrigation for 4 blocks around them. The barrels water level could decay over time and in the summer months players might need to have another barrel feeding into it through another tuyere or refill it from buckets.This might be a fun and interesting way to allow some basic water movements before achieving red steel.If you want to move source blocks before getting red steel perhaps you'd need an aqueduct made from lead lined bricks. Recipe: a stone brick wall with lead single sheets all along the top row. Once placed lead lined brick blocks can be removed but never recovered. 

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The only problem I see is you can not fill jugs, buckets, barrels and ceramuc vessels from flowing water blocks.

As it stands I don't think it will be implemented becouse Devs do mot know how to do it.

So having a flowing water block won't give you anything except irrigation.

And lead pipes to irrigate your crops seems a bit too much if you ask me.

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You would have to create a static water block at the end of the pipe. This already happens with the Sluice, however the water block it creates is 2 below the source block. I think this suggestion is to create water blocks at the same or higher level.

 

I'm already considering a device called an Archimede's Screw, an ancient device for raising water. Very human power-able as well, like a quern.

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I would like the pipes if implemented to be filled only by moving water blocks , and i think it would be possible to code something like that , right ? I mean just make the pipe "invisible" or something :D

 

Lead would create a big impact on the gameplay diversity , i mean TFC is nice and all but it's turning too much to being a farming simulator .

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After reading the initial post, I thought it would be a good idea to try out the extraction process outlined by Udary.

 

I have created a mod and created a post for it here.

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I think it's important to note that when you read "far outweighs the main lead ore in revenue", the value of silver (per kg) is $513.45 USD at the time I write this, whereas solid lead scrap (for which I was able to find a price) is just $1.87 USD. That means silver is 275 times more valuable than lead, so outweighing the value of lead really doesn't say much. Galena is typically about 86% lead by weight, and the argentiferous galena is on average about 1% silver by weight. I'll also note that the wikipedia article on galena states that galena is mined as a silver ore only within the united states, while it occurs without silver inclusions all over the world- silver isn't exactly common. Anyway, if we scaled the silver production accordingly, each regular galena ore (ie not rich or poor) would contain 0.29 units of silver (proportional to 25 units of lead). This would mean you'd need 344 pieces of ore to make one silver ingot. That silver ingot would be worth 275 lead ingots in our IRL economy (compared to the 86 lead ingots you'd be able to make with those 344 ore pieces), but that really doesn't mean much in TFC.

 

Basically, the amount of silver in SOME galena deposits is negligible in-game.

 

sources:

http://geology.com/minerals/galena.shtml

http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/lead/

http://www.24hgold.com/english/gold_silver_prices_charts.aspx?money=USD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galena

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This discussion only exists because the devs haven't decided (yet) to remove this useless ore from the game. There were more unused ores before and they got removed, so i'm not sure why some are still present...

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The things is, lead was super useful, you can make pipes, and pewter for cooking, among many other things, so the discussion isn't just "there is an metal in the game, we might as well use it", it is more like "why aren't we using this super cool metal?"

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Well, maybe becouse it will kill steve? Yeah sure lead is easy to use low melting temp and all, but it is poisonous.

So yeah, it was used. And many, many plives were lost too soon becouse of it. I'm not surprised Devs don't want to utilise it.

There's a reason why lead is practically only used in batteries now.

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Don't quote me on this, but I'm fairly sure lead is still (and DEFINITELY historically, you can quote me on that) widely used as piping. This, I think, is a great case of why we say believable, and not realistic. It is totally believable to use lead for pipes

Not that I specifically meant pipes should be the use of lead (although I think they should) because they have been long argued about but I think the toxicity side of lead definitely does not negate its potential use.

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There were actually pipe placeholder items in 78, which were planned to be made from brass, not lead. But they were removed because the decision was made that pipes didn't really have a use with the way TFC is currently balanced.

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Cool. I wasn't really thinking about piping specifically, just that tfc is ignoring a cool metal that is already in the game. I already knew about the placeholder items for pipes. :D

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Lead is a very very bad neurotoxin, which is especially harmful to the developing brains of children. It was widely used in paints, as a gasoline additive and for water pipes. This has been completely stopped due to the danger of lead exposure. Lead water pipes are actively being replaced when they are found. The only reason there wasn't a massive lead exposure issue is that minerals built up on the interiors of the pipes, sealing them and preventing them from leaching more lead, until the seal is broken.

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It's also really annoying when it comes to wireless signals. We used to have this box that handled all the signals between the tech booth and the various electronic implements on stage (lights, microphones, ect.) that was painted with leaded paint. It caused endless headaches when it ate signals. We had to sand off every spec of paint before the thing started behaving.

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