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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Thrainn

B79 Food Preservation

47 posts in this topic

I try to say this politely... i think the devs didnt quite understand how all the involved processes work in reality and made up their own version that may fit the gameplay but isnt very realistic.

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ad 2b. Could you please elaborate?

In one of the above links, Bioxx stated that "Pickling is not meant to consume vinegar. Pickling alters the flavor of food and gains most of its decay resistance effects while sitting in the barrel of vinegar. Vinegar is meant to be used to store your food."

So what can we expect here? You stated once, that pickling retains 75% of normal decay rate, so what does long-time sitting in vinegar do for the food?

 

Storing pickled food in vinegar does a 0.1 multiplier. So if before your pickled food was decaying at 75% the standard rate, storing it in vinegar means it is now decaying at 7.5% the standard rate.

 

 

Well, it's way easier to pour salt into water than to extract it out of it ... I'd support the idea.Otherwise the whole preservation system all but forces us to settle near the ocean. What if you choose to settle inmidst a large continent? I do not have the experience Bunsan is stating, that water bodies that are not oceans contain salt water. It should be much easier to find rocksalt anywhere, take a full inventory of stacks home and settle wherever you like! Opposed to bring one barrel of salt water at a time over many kilometres to your home.This really should be something to consider by the devs.

 

If we add the ability to add salt to water to create salt water, I can guarantee that the suggestions for the reverse will come back in full force, even with the post stating not to suggest it.

 

It also seems that you guys are forgetting that barrels and large vessels which overburden you and limit you to just 1 per inventory are not the only way to transport salt water. With the assumption that you are keeping the tools/food/etc on your hotbar for survival, what is stopping you from bringing back an inventory full of wooden buckets of salt water, in addition to the full barrel? Considering that each row of inventory has 9 slots, which is enough to hold the 9 buckets of salt water required for each brine barrel, a single trip to the ocean could be enough to make 4 brine barrels (1 salt water barrel on your back, and 27 salt water buckets in your inventory).

 

I would also urge you to remember how food was handled before the brining system was implemented. Decay is a fact of life, and it is going to happen. The new preservation methods are there to give you options. We honestly do not expect you to utilize every single preservation method possible on every single itty bitty bit of food that you come across. That's also why all of the preservation methods affect taste. Sure, you might get that chunk of beef so that it lasts indefinitely, but what's the point when after all that process the food is utterly disgusting to your player, and even using it in meals makes it almost impossible to find anything satisfying? The long term storage methods such as pickling are there so that you can create a small stockpile in case there is ever a time when the food would otherwise be scarce. We expect you to eat the majority of your food before you even have the need to go through the process of brining, pickling, etc. There's absolutely nothing wrong with simply cooking and maybe salting your meat to eat it and ignoring all the other preservation methods, especially after you have set up to the point where you have a surplus of meat.

 

I try to say this politely... i think the devs didnt quite understand how all the involved processes work in reality and made up their own version that may fit the gameplay but isnt very realistic.

 

I would kindly like to point you to my signature, the FAQ page, and this homepage post, because it seems that you missed the point that TFC actually isn't trying to be realistic. This is how game development works. Bioxx did a lot of research on how these mechanics work, so the idea that he "didn't quite understand" it is somewhat ridiculous. Yes the systems have been altered so that they fit better for balanced gameplay, but he did not "make up his own version," he tweaked the actual ones.

 

The barrel system has been rewritten multiple times since the final release of Build 78. It is finally at a point where we are satisfied with how it works, and how it is balanced, and I strongly doubt that it will be changed again.

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Barrel full of fresh water + rocksalt = barrel of brine... why would anyone complain about that ?

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Barrel full of fresh water + rocksalt = barrel of brine... why would anyone complain about that ?

 

Well for 1, the brine recipe is Salt Water + Vinegar.. and you don't have any vinegar in that equation.

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Because you dont put vinegar into brine...

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The amount of vinegar in the brine is fairly minimal. 90% Salt Water, 10% Vinegar.

 

It is actually indeed fairly common to include vinegar in your brine (commonly apple cider vinegar) for the extra acidity.

 

Here's some more information if you don't believe me:

 

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/guy-fieri/vinegar-brined-baby-back-ribs-recipe.html

http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/adding-vinegar-brine-pork-42181.html

http://bbq.about.com/od/brinerecipes/r/bl90821a.htm

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Erm, that is the brine used to make meat more juicy and stuff before cooking.

 

We are talking about the other brine, the one used before pickling, there are two different kinds.

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Could you kindly provide some information showing that the two are different then, please?

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best i could find (in english) would be

http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/70/Brining

where there is no mentioning of the vinegar, because its about the preservating kind.

 

In some yt vid a guy explained that at about a 6% salt solution it turns from making meat more moist into making it more dry... but afaik that guy was just talking for talks sake.

 

 

In all honesty, for quite some time i am trying to find a good explanation about the whole brining, drying and smoking process but all i can find are cooks/chefs who explain their secret formula that has been passed down through centuries and... you know, every guy knows it better than the last.

 

 

Most of the brining i know is actually dry-salting. You rub a piece of meat with salt and pickling stuff and the put it somewhere and wait. The salt draws the liquids out of the meat, then u wash it to get the rest of the salt off and then u put it into a smoker.

 

The wet-salting/brining is usually done with spices+salt, cooked up and once cooled down poured over the meat. However its considered the "cheap and easy" method and produces less tasty results... they say.

 

 

When pickling, then people use brine + vinegar and whatnot to create special flavors. But the brine is then put into the vinegar, or mixed up. So brine in this case is not a result of saltwater mixed with vinegar. The vinegar + brine is the actual pickling liquid.

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There are many types of pickling processes

 

Basically you are changing what types of organisms can survive in the solution to determine the product of fermentation

 

NikkyD is probably talking about a regional process that doesn't use vinegar for some reason

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It seems that my question turned into a suggestion. Woops. I still don't see why people seem to be brining and pickling their entire harvest. Am I the only one who brings in enough food from a small farm with no animals to last until the next growing season?

 

Also, recall that you can move salt water with red steel buckets.

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The mechanism used in game is similar to the way curing food and meat can be done, but modified so that it is balanced and not frustrating for the player.  The way you would brine meat for preservation and fruit/veg is very very different, but as this is a new feature it makes sense to have a common mechanism for all food. Maybe in the future they will split them to be slightly more like real life.

 

Vinegar, lemon juice or any food acid are a valid part of a brine. It not only helps with preservation, but adds flavour to the meat etc. Pretty much anything that can be anti-microbial would be usefull. In the real world seawater would not be concentrated enough for a meat preservation and on its own afaik would not be strong enough for fruit or veg either. Brines must be either a pH or salinity that does not allow most microbes to live and reproduce. You would have to boil a lot of seawater to get a concentration that was usable. 

 

I personally have not bothered using these preservation techniques for the vast majority of my food. Salting/cooking meat and storage of all my food on top of a mountain near build height limit has made decay near negligible.  I only preserved some food for making a large trip to the equator where I knew I'd be unable to find wild crops (it was winter in northern hemisphere) and that the food I brought would rot before I could make it home again.

 

You need to have a suspension of belief. If they made this mod like the real world then the majority of the time players in groups below a critical number would enter a death loop situation within a year. i.e. you would respawn just to inevitably die of starvation, exposure, dehydration etc in short order. Western colonist, even with supplies and tools, barely survived in most cases and only did so thanks to established indigenous populations.

 

It is easy to prove the way it happens in game is not like the real world, what you need to show is how making it more like the real world adds to the gameplay/enjoyment of the mod.

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@Bunsan

 

Thats where i was going. If you need vinegar for brine, it means all preservation techniques depend on fruits. Especially in the beginning 10 oz of fruit is difficult to come by. So drying meat or pickling food cannot be done in the beginning where you might have to survive from what little you have and where a little less decay could save you.

 

fruit for vinegar is a gameplay-bottleneck, like flux or later graphite.

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Gameplay bottleneck? You're making it sound like you can't possibly progress in the game until you get fruit so that you can start preserving food. Plenty of people get on just fine without preservation techniques like brining. Heck, I survived my first year just foraging for food.

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I decided that eating and getting animal familiarization was important so it took me over a year have enough spare grain to make alcohol. At that point I only had small amounts of berries. So no vinegar. I'd also progressed to point of crafting and setting up blast furnace. Wasn't until a trip south to mass produce charcoal at a acacia jungle did I get fruit trees (and luckily the fruit) that I was able to make vinegar. Even then I didn't need much. It certainly didn't slow my progression.

It sounds like it may be you are far more a competionist than I am and the pace of things is what is frustrating you.

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Its not a gamebreaker but a bottleneck. Lots of options ("things to do") are only unlocked with fruit/vinegar or flux.

Technically clay is the first one as you need it for a saw/pickaxe which are required for any woodwork or metalwork.

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I'll do a bit of a necro here and remember you guys of the following: donkeys and mules can carry 15 barrels of salt water.

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Good point cocoaman (although I've never actually tamed horses yet). I just setup a "brining station" and carry 10 empty barrels and 10 stacks of food to the sea/salt water location . I carry with me 1 full barrel of vinegar (which means I can get 10 barrels of brine out of it). Fill the empty barrels on site with salt water, remove 1 bucket so there is 9000 mb of salt water in each and then add the vinegar. presto!! 10 barrels of brine for your 10 stacks of food!!

 

I do have a related question though.. Can you use pickled fruit to make vinegar?

Edited by rohan
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yes, i agree with you tony there is a lot of things that TFC1 need to be rectified. If only there was another team still supporting the continuity of this of first TFC ^_^

Edited by landryx
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I have another question.... Having answered my first one myself, Unfortunately, I don't think that will work for this one. If you pickle food, then store 320 oz in a small clay vessel (80 oz per slot), can you then put that vessel in a barrel of vinegar and get both the "pickled item in vinegar" .1 modifier as well as the .5 for the clay vessel?

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15 hours ago, rohan said:

I have another question.... Having answered my first one myself, Unfortunately, I don't think that will work for this one. If you pickle food, then store 320 oz in a small clay vessel (80 oz per slot), can you then put that vessel in a barrel of vinegar and get both the "pickled item in vinegar" .1 modifier as well as the .5 for the clay vessel?

No. The food item itself must be in the barrel slot to get the pickling modifier. 

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I understand. Can't blame a guy for trying. :)  BTW - thank you (and the others on the team) for such a great mod.

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