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Regnilse

[Solved] Odd cave-in behavior

24 posts in this topic

I've noticed something odd about cave ins, I'm not making a bug report because maybe this is how things are. version .79.13

 

In the picture the thatch block was the stone I was mining and you can see that is well within the area supported by the beam on the right yet it caused the cave in you can see on the left. Now after the cave in beam was also broken but it was not caused by falling blocks and I'm sure I didn't break it. 

 

My thoughts about this

  • The beam was broke somehow which allowed the cave in to happen, but don't know how.
  • There is still some odd stuff with beam which were placed on the ceiling, so maybe the horizontal beam didn't actually get placed.

Would someone be able to help explain what happened.

 

Posted Image

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The block that you mined was within the support. The unsupported blocks around it that are in the area a block scans to try and cave in when mined were not.

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Doesn't the support beams support an area of 4 blocks horizontally from the beam itself and one above. The room I was in was mined 4 blocks from the beam, so it should have been fully suported.

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Yes, but when you mine a block, that block scans 4 blocks in each direction as well as 2 blocks up and down to try and cave in there.

 

So the block that you mined was within the 4 blocks that the support beam supports. The block 3 blocks further away that was scanned from the block you mined and chosen to be the center of the cave in was not.

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Maybe a picture will help?

 

Posted Image

 

Brown is the support beam, and red is part of range of what the support beam supports. Yellow is the block you mined. Green is part of the horizontal range that yellow scans when looking to put the center of a cave in. The green block with an X is outside of the support beam's range so it can cave in, and it is within the range that the yellow block scans. Hence, cave in.

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Hmm ok, but even so the "cave in check area" around the mined block seems to be solid rock or supported area, I though cave ins need an air block below it to happen.  also would my original description explain why the beam would be broken, i am 100% sure that a block did not fall though it.

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Hmm ok, but even so the "cave in check area" around the mined block seems to be solid rock or supported area, I though cave ins need an air block below it to happen.  also would my original description explain why the beam would be broken, i am 100% sure that a block did not fall though it.

Posted Image

 

The red line is the very far edge that the support beams support, anything beyond it is not supported. The blue X is a block of air above a block of cobblestone, meaning that it used to be a block of raw stone above a block of air or other non-opaque block like a torch that will not stop cave ins.

 

As for your beam breaking, I don't know.

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Ok this may solve my confusion. The supported area is 4 block from the horizontal beam, not the vertical beam. This would mean the block you marked blue is 4 blocks from the vertical beam but 5 block from the horizontal beam. Is that correct?

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Yes. The vertical beam doesn't do anything. Only the free-standing horizontal beam that is not in an L shape will offer support.

 

Posted Image

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Oh ok then, that does explain it, it though it was just 4 block from the support beam not specifically horizontal beams.

 

thanks for your help, now I need to figure out why the horizontal beam broke, I've noticed that happening a few time on different beams so i think there is something fishy going on, but that's for a different post.

 

oh quick question,  for a cave in to occur does it require that another stone block is above it? I saw a config for something about that, the minimum rock load one.

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The load is for any opaque block, it doesn't necessarily have to be another raw stone block.

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But that load is required for a cave in to happen? if its 1 then at least one opaque block needs to be above a stone block, it that stone block is to collapse right?

 

I'll mark this a solved as you sorted out my misinformation.

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But that load is required for a cave in to happen? if its 1 then at least one opaque block needs to be above a stone block, it that stone block is to collapse right?

 

Yes, that is correct. If the raw stone has air above it, it will not cave in.

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Thanks for all the help, my mining will never be safer.

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Maybe a picture will help?

Posted Image

Brown is the support beam, and red is part of range of what the support beam supports. Yellow is the block you mined. Green is part of the horizontal range that yellow scans when looking to put the center of a cave in. The green block with an X is outside of the support beam's range so it can cave in, and it is within the range that the yellow block scans. Hence, cave in.

Isn't that a bit too much? The yellow, itself safe block, causes a cave in elsewhere, which can propagate back to the support beam and let it collapse too, right? If even the yellow block isn't safe to mine, than what is??

Another thing I noticed is that mining one block above and besides a vertial beam also frequently causes cave ins. But I remember you posting a screenshot where you demonstrated save mining up in a staircase manner, with each step having a support beam. How was that possible?

One last thing: cave in cobble seems to have a physics issue - it often doesn't slide correctly over an edge but remains suspended next to the edge above an air block, like this:

CC

SS

SSSS

C being cobble, S smoothstone. When I get to it, I can post screenshots too.

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Isn't that a bit too much? The yellow, itself safe block, causes a cave in elsewhere, which can propagate back to the support beam and let it collapse too, right? If even the yellow block isn't safe to mine, than what is??Another thing I noticed is that mining one block above and besides a vertial beam also frequently causes cave ins. But I remember you posting a screenshot where you demonstrated save mining up in a staircase manner, with each step having a support beam. How was that possible?One last thing: cave in cobble seems to have a physics issue - it often doesn't slide correctly over an edge but remains suspended next to the edge above an air block, like this:CCSSSSSSC being cobble, S smoothstone. When I get to it, I can post screenshots too.

 

The yellow scanning around looking for blocks to mine was necessary to get rid of the 2x1 tunnels. If the green with X is exposed when the player goes to mine the yellow, then they should have extended their support beams to cover it as well.

 

The up in a staircase manner isn't 100% guarantee against cave ins. If you stand in the correct spot though, the cave in will not collapse on you.

 

That isn't a physics issue, if a block has enough blocks directly next to it, it will not slide off an edge. That's how you can pillar directly up in a corner.

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That isn't a physics issue, if a block has enough blocks directly next to it, it will not slide off an edge. That's how you can pillar directly up in a corner.

I think i know what hes talking about here, i think the block is unsuported so it slips sideways before falling , but after it slips it enters an area supported by beams so it doesnt fall, causing it to hang awkwardly in the air. This is what ive noticed happening, i wouldnt consider it a problem though.
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Support beams are kinda useless now, it wont prevent any cave ins even when you mine a block directly next to it. Placing horizontal beams before a cave in is impossible.

 

I used to like the old support beams, now I don't even use them anymore, it does not help even a little bit to prevent cave ins

 

I Think cave ins should be a lot less common but way more catastrophic when it happens.

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Support beams are kinda useless now, it wont prevent any cave ins even when you mine a block directly next to it. Placing horizontal beams before a cave in is impossible. I used to like the old support beams, now I don't even use them anymore, it does not help even a little bit to prevent cave ins I Think cave ins should be a lot less common but way more catastrophic when it happens.

I think the cave-in system is brilliant. The situation above could have been prevented easily, had he better understood how it works. (And this thread is very helpful in that regard.) The only time you can't prevent cave-ins is when theres a hidden natural cave or air pocket behind a wall that's within range. Other than that all it takes is careful mining. My question: do the same rules apply when mining non stone/cobblestone blocks? For example, I set placed a wood plank for temporary support. Now I am removing that plank. Could that cause a cave-in 4 blocks away?
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Support beams are kinda useless now, it wont prevent any cave ins even when you mine a block directly next to it. Placing horizontal beams before a cave in is impossible.I used to like the old support beams, now I don't even use them anymore, it does not help even a little bit to prevent cave insI Think cave ins should be a lot less common but way more catastrophic when it happens.

What do you mean? If there needs to be an air block within 4 blocks distance of the block you are breaking for a cavein to happen, couldn't you just place a support there? I can only think of a minority of occasions where it is impossible to place a support due to being unable to reach the required area, such as having a hidden cave nearby.--edit-- oops. Master beat me to it.
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What do you mean? If there needs to be an air block within 4 blocks distance of the block you are breaking for a cavein to happen, couldn't you just place a support there? I can only think of a minority of occasions where it is impossible to place a support due to being unable to reach the required area, such as having a hidden cave nearby.

--edit-- oops. Master beat me to it.

OK, let me explain it a little better, every time i go mining, it does not matter if i use support beams or not, cave ins happens just as often, whenever I break the block right next to a support beam it will provoke a cave in most of the time. Horizontal beams are impractical because they will just collapse after a cave in.

 

Maybe i am biased by the old system and just cant get the new one to work, but i think this should be a little more intuitive to learn how it works...

 

 

 

Maybe a picture will help?

 

Posted Image

 

Brown is the support beam, and red is part of range of what the support beam supports. Yellow is the block you mined. Green is part of the horizontal range that yellow scans when looking to put the center of a cave in. The green block with an X is outside of the support beam's range so it can cave in, and it is within the range that the yellow block scans. Hence, cave in.

 

Also, after seeing this image, if you are going to scan 4 blocks ahead for a a cave in, you should make the protection from a support beam a little bigger. or else you can't mine 2 blocks ahead without causing a cave in

 

And are those red blocks on the image a 7x7 square on top of the support beam or its is a circle?

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Only the mining of raw stone triggers cave-in code. Breaking support beams, ore or cobblestone does not. However if a support beam is supporting cobble or dirt they will fall when horizontal beam is removed. Also remember only horizontal beams offer support. The vertical beams don't offer any supports.

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Support beams are kinda useless now, it wont prevent any cave ins even when you mine a block directly next to it. Placing horizontal beams before a cave in is impossible.

 

I used to like the old support beams, now I don't even use them anymore, it does not help even a little bit to prevent cave ins

 

I Think cave ins should be a lot less common but way more catastrophic when it happens.

 

It is possible to place beams in a cave and be safe, you just need to place some extra ones down outside of the area your mining in, as for before caves, ya kinda, bioxx said he was going to look in to to see if something could be done to stop cave ins when first finding caves.

 

 

There is a config setting just for this, in the file TFCOptions you can set the chance that a cave in will occur, and the chance of it propagating, if you want rare but devastating cave ins i would suggest InitialCollapseRatio=100+ and porpogateCollapseChance=75 that should get you what you want.

 

 

Also, after seeing this image, if you are going to scan 4 blocks ahead for a a cave in, you should make the protection from a support beam a little bigger. or else you can't mine 2 blocks ahead without causing a cave in

 

this can only happen if the block marked X has an air block under it, which isn't to common. also you could add more support beams if its a cave supporting that area.

 

The only this I would like changed with support beams is there should be a safe way to dig up, I know you can dig up but its not fully supported and could cave in

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