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SouthpawHare

Ranged weapons vs. Skeletons

56 posts in this topic

If I'm not mistaken, there are currently no ranged weapons that deal any damage to skeletons, as all ranged weapons (javelins and arrows) are piercing damage.  This seems problematic to me, as ranged combat used to be the only effective way to attack them in old TFC.  There have already been concerns about there being no dedicated blunt stone age weapons, but I think it is even more concerning that there is no way to fight them at range, even after metal is acquired.  At the moment, if I'm not mistaken, the best way to fight skeletons (besides not and running away) is to charge them with a hammer and try to kill them before they kill you, tanking the arrows as you smash repetitively, and that's a ridiculous notion.  The problem is not how much damage or how quickly your weapons damage them, but rather, using weapons that prevent you from taking damage yourself.

 

Not only do I recommend the already-requested idea of making a dedicated blunt stone age weapon such as a club, but more importantly, I recommend making it a throwable weapon, as the javelin, for effectively dealing with skeletons.  While I realize such suggestions have been mentioned before, I mention them for a specific purpose (and also one that has become relavant only relatively recently) - to effectively fight skeletons.  Clubs definitely had historic versions made for throwing, and it makes sense from a believability and roleplaying point-of-view that the player characters would use weapons and tactics designed to take out the sort of enemies they're facing (blunt weapons are specifically designed primarily for skeletons in this world, after all).  In fact, I'd think it would actually be unbelievable if they didn't exist - one of the primary enemies has no effective weapon to deal with them.  An alternative would be some sort of shield to block arrows as one advances, although that would be more complicated; either way, though, I think some sort of weapon or defense should reasonably allow one to fight skeletons without taking any damage if done properly.

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As a TFC combat aficionado and enthusiast, I wholeheartedly agree with this idea. Skeletons/javalin skeletons are the only challenging mobs, sans spiders, but only for the fact that most weapons are completely ineffective against them.One thing that I want to suggest, if I may?Slingshotie, the "sling"Not the modern one you may be thinking of, but rather the traditional sling that was actually used to launch a stone incredibly fast.This could easily be added into the game, along with some tricky skill to master to be able to nail skeletons from afar.Because it would be so fun to knock the heads of a few bones on the top of a hill.On that note, when are there going to be TFC-special animations for mobs? Hmm, I think I should suggest that...

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I think when the mobs are moved underground this mention will have little sense , for then in the tight spaces of the underground the combat would be more balanced because of the obstructions and the use of ranged weapons less useful anyway .

Because of that i don't really support a way to fight skeletons from range , again , it wouldn't have use in caves .

 

However there is need for another range type weapon that would help with mobs or warplay i guess , i wouldn't mind a net , like the one with the boulders that give it momentum and help it weave around it's target .

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When the mobs are moved underground, I assume they find replacements for them on the surface, and in my opinion they also should utilize the damage type system when they do that. Otherwise it would seem as quite a waste if this mechanic is banned underground together with the monsters.

In general I very much support a means to fight those damn skeletons from a range. but throwing clubs? I don't know ...

But I really like the idea of slings!!

About dedicated TFC blunt weapons: you do realize that TFC has maces??

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I think there is a need for a way to deal with skeletons, but I think a ranged weapon that can kill them makes life a bit to easy. What I'd like to see is ability to throw stones, which would knockback without damaging them. Would be nice if it also gave a 1 second stun effect as well. This would allow you to more easily run from them or clear a path. You could do the sling, but that would require a new item, mechanic. Whereas throwing stones may be able to use snowball mechanics.

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Not sure if range blunt weapon should be the direction to go. I would be more inclined in having a wood club for stone age use, and the shield is a must. I understand it would be hard to create the animations and  mechanic for the shield, but it has been used since stone age and is a believable war tool. The way I see it could be implemented in a way that would only block attacks coming from one direction, and it should prevent the player for doing any action other then movement. So you would be unable to fight and block at the same time. In essence it would allow you to approach the skeleton. 

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Speaking of mechanics, hey Bioxx, have you seen Sethblinf's polygon that he made a while ago that improved sword combat? I'll dig it up sometime. I feel that or would fit in perfectly.

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I think there is a need for a way to deal with skeletons, but I think a ranged weapon that can kill them makes life a bit to easy.

From an in-game roleplatying perspective, it doesn't make sense to me that a weapon type could be "too easy" or "too good" if we're talking about believability.  Out of the possible choices that can plausibly exist, one would invent the best one that makes life easiest for them.  Being as easy as possible is, in fact, the point of inventing tools and weapons.  From a game-balance POV, I also don't see a problem - any given MOB should be disposable without trouble if you're properly prepared for them, and have the equipment to counter them (which should necessarily exist).

 

Slings are a pretty good idea, although I would definitely have them damage enemies and not simply knock them back.

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I think when the mobs are moved underground this mention will have little sense , for then in the tight spaces of the underground the combat would be more balanced because of the obstructions and the use of ranged weapons less useful anyway .

Because of that i don't really support a way to fight skeletons from range , again , it wouldn't have use in caves .

I do not agree that ranged weapons would be useless in caves.  It would be less effective, sure, but completely ineffective?  In older versions, shooting skeletons and stepping behind cover, or perhaps just side-step straffing while shooting, were still useful strategies that could prevent you from getting shot, where as attacking them in melee was sure to get you shot at least a few times.

 

I will remind you that my primary hope here is to have a weapon invented that will help one defeat skeletons without taking any damage themselves in the process.  I don't think this is too far-fetched or out-there to consider - I don't think they should be so difficult that you have to accept sacrificing health to fight them, and I don't think that's a believable thing a person would do - I think they'd just find a better way.  Even underground, ranged weapons would be infinitely better than melee.

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About dedicated TFC blunt weapons: you do realize that TFC has maces??

I do.  However, maces are not ranged, which is in my opinion even more important in being effective against skeletons than damage type is.  If you attack a skeleton with a mace, you're going to take damage, one way or another.

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From an in-game roleplatying perspective, it doesn't make sense to me that a weapon type could be "too easy" or "too good" if we're talking about believability.  Out of the possible choices that can plausibly exist, one would invent the best one that makes life easiest for them.  Being as easy as possible is, in fact, the point of inventing tools and weapons.  From a game-balance POV, I also don't see a problem - any given MOB should be disposable without trouble if you're properly prepared for them, and have the equipment to counter them (which should necessarily exist).

 

It is intentional in TFC that you cannot be fully prepared to deal with a mob during the early stages of the game. If you could easily dispose of any mob while still in the stone age, it ruins any incentive to tech up. The game is hard at the start, as it's supposed to be. Players should not be able to be "properly prepared" until they've actually put in a good deal of effort to do so. Skeletons are terrifying at the start because you have no way to safely kill them, and that was the whole point that Bioxx was aiming for when he added in the javelin skeletons. Seeing a javelin skeleton at the start of the game gives players an "Oh Shit!" feeling and the urge to run away, and that was the goal of adding them in in the first place.

 

 

I will remind you that my primary hope here is to have a weapon invented that will help one defeat skeletons without taking any damage themselves in the process.  I don't think this is too far-fetched or out-there to consider - I don't think they should be so difficult that you have to accept sacrificing health to fight them, and I don't think that's a believable thing a person would do - I think they'd just find a better way.  Even underground, ranged weapons would be infinitely better than melee.

 

Even with melee it is actually possible to defeat a skeleton without taking any damage yourself. It's called dodging and using armor, and it really isn't that hard to do. With just leather armor and a bronze mace, I can easily take down skeletons without taking any damage at all. If you are consistently taking damage from a skeleton, then you need to improve your melee skills, because they aren't that great. Adding in a ranged weapon so that you can easily kill skeletons with absolutely no fear of taking damage yourself destroys the entire point of combat in the first place. There is supposed to be a back and forth between the mob and the player, because if you are just easily taking out all of the mobs with no danger to yourself, then there really is no point in having the mobs around at all, and you might as well be playing on peaceful.

 

 

I do.  However, maces are not ranged, which is in my opinion even more important in being effective against skeletons than damage type is.  If you attack a skeleton with a mace, you're going to take damage, one way or another.

 

As stated above, it is possible to use a mace and kill skeletons without taking damage. It's called having actual skill for in-game combat and learning the shooting habits of the mob and how to dodge them. The only reason that "you're going to take damage, one way or another." is ever going to happen is if you are just bad at combat.

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It is intentional in TFC that you cannot be fully prepared to deal with a mob during the early stages of the game. If you could easily dispose of any mob while still in the stone age, it ruins any incentive to tech up. The game is hard at the start, as it's supposed to be. Players should not be able to be "properly prepared" until they've actually put in a good deal of effort to do so. Skeletons are terrifying at the start because you have no way to safely kill them, and that was the whole point that Bioxx was aiming for when he added in the javelin skeletons. Seeing a javelin skeleton at the start of the game gives players an "Oh Shit!" feeling and the urge to run away, and that was the goal of adding them in in the first place.

 

 

 

Even with melee it is actually possible to defeat a skeleton without taking any damage yourself. It's called dodging and using armor, and it really isn't that hard to do. With just leather armor and a bronze mace, I can easily take down skeletons without taking any damage at all. If you are consistently taking damage from a skeleton, then you need to improve your melee skills, because they aren't that great. Adding in a ranged weapon so that you can easily kill skeletons with absolutely no fear of taking damage yourself destroys the entire point of combat in the first place. There is supposed to be a back and forth between the mob and the player, because if you are just easily taking out all of the mobs with no danger to yourself, then there really is no point in having the mobs around at all, and you might as well be playing on peaceful.

 

 

 

As stated above, it is possible to use a mace and kill skeletons without taking damage. It's called having actual skill for in-game combat and learning the shooting habits of the mob and how to dodge them. The only reason that "you're going to take damage, one way or another." is ever going to happen is if you are just bad at combat.

 

Perhaps we got off on the wrong foot here...  I'm not trying to be aggressive myself in stating my opinion.  In addition, I'm something of a fan of yours, Kittychanley.  Let's try to get along and discuss this in a way that is not dismissive of each other.

 

Personally, I don't value "combat skill" as much as "preparedness with items."  To me, Minecraft is not really a game about player skill so much as an RPG with character skill and technology progression.  I kind of have to view it this way out of necessity as, at least for me, the game runs terribly performance-wise.  In many combat situations, I only have 10 or 15 FPS, so precision control isn't really an option.  Going into any sort of melee is just not reliable, and never will be - it's not about how well I can sidestep or whatever - it's about the game lagging out and killing me no matter what I do.  I've always compensated by just doing stuff the safe, easy way, and that has actually translated well to the roleplaying aspect for me - I enjoy playing someone who has little melee ability and has to work extra-hard to prepare technology and ammo for ranged combat, but for whom this pays off.  I've come to enjoy this limitation even more than if I had never had it in the first place.

 

I don't think that this makes the game "too easy" or "less fun" - I think it is another way to approach the same game in a different way.  It still requires "teching up" and it still requires "skill" in other areas - just not skill in dodging point-blank arrows.

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I don't think that this makes the game "too easy" or "less fun" - I think it is another way to approach the same game in a different way.  It still requires "teching up" and it still requires "skill" in other areas - just not skill in dodging point-blank arrows.

 

The problem here is that everything suggested so far as a solution would be readily available in the stone age, meaning that there is no "teching up" because you are using it in the very first level of tech. Ideally, players should not be able to take on skeletons in a 100% safe manner until at least the bronze age or even the iron age in my opinion.

 

Edit: As an aside, have you taken any steps to try and improve your game performance, such as installing FastCraft or using JVM arguments to help with memory allocation and garbage collection?

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Edit: As an aside, have you taken any steps to try and improve your game performance, such as installing FastCraft or using JVM arguments to help with memory allocation and garbage collection?

 

I have tried things in the past, but I've never seen a noticable improvement.  I don't know how good optimization stuff is today, and am not using anything currently.

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The problem here is that everything suggested so far as a solution would be readily available in the stone age, meaning that there is no "teching up" because you are using it in the very first level of tech.

I think the reason for this is because the concept of blunt projectile weapons are indeed primitive.  Skeletons would be weak to, honestly, "throwing something, anything, heavy at them," which is something that a primitive caveman could do.  If you're concerned about game balance, you could make it so that you need to make sling bullets out of metal or something, or make only metal weapons throwable - it would just be clear that this is something of a stretch.

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I think the reason for this is because the concept of blunt projectile weapons are indeed primitive.  Skeletons would be weak to, honestly, "throwing something, anything, heavy at them," which is something that a primitive caveman could do.  If you're concerned about game balance, you could make it so that you need to make sling bullets out of metal or something, or make only metal weapons throwable - it would just be clear that this is something of a stretch.

 

While I agree that throwing rocks at something should at least have a knockback effect, honestly throwing a rock that fits easily in your hand really isn't going to do all that much damage. Compare how much damage a stone javelin does to a zombie, that's roughly how much damage a stone blunt tool would have to do to a skeleton, if not less. The same would go for metal javelins versus metal throwing tools. Distance also has to be taken into account, since objects that are heavy enough to do a great deal of damage would probably be fairly heavy, and you wouldn't be able to throw them very far. By the time you are within range to actually throw a tool that does significant damage, you're probably already within range of the skeleton seeing you and shooting at you, defeating the whole point of adding in something that you can use to attack them without them attacking you.

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While I agree that throwing rocks at something should at least have a knockback effect, honestly throwing a rock that fits easily in your hand really isn't going to do all that much damage. Compare how much damage a stone javelin does to a zombie, that's roughly how much damage a stone blunt tool would have to do to a skeleton, if not less. The same would go for metal javelins versus metal throwing tools. Distance also has to be taken into account, since objects that are heavy enough to do a great deal of damage would probably be fairly heavy, and you wouldn't be able to throw them very far. By the time you are within range to actually throw a tool that does significant damage, you're probably already within range of the skeleton seeing you and shooting at you, defeating the whole point of adding in something that you can use to attack them without them attacking you.

Defense against them would be the next best idea, then.  The idea of a shield that fully blocks projectiles, perhaps?  Yes, there is armor, but you still take damage through that.

 

What it comes down to is that I do not think that an experienced warrior would rely on their ability to avoid arrow-fire even if they could and were skilled enough.  It's just not a smart way to fight.  A good warrior would use his head and come up with a better idea.

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The idea of a shield that fully blocks projectiles, perhaps?

 

That sounds incredible overpowered.  Any item that guarantees no damage is OP in any game.  Even a seemingly simple stun mechanic can be very powerful in a game and can potential completely break combat removing any and all danger from mobs.

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That sounds incredible overpowered.  Any item that guarantees no damage is OP in any game.  Even a seemingly simple stun mechanic can be very powerful in a game and can potential completely break combat removing any and all danger from mobs.

Considering that skeleton arrows/javelins are the only enemy projectile in the game afaik, and that I am suggesting that it requires some timing to use in addition to being a dedicated item with only one single purpose that you have to lug around, I must disagree.  Its very limited situationalness counteracts how powerful it would be.

 

This is sort of really getting to the point I'm making about how I see Terrafirmacraft in general.  As a game about building up technology from the ground-up in order to survive, I see the core skills of TFC being ingenuity, inventiveness, and preparedness.  I think that there should be a tool for every purpose, and that you can get yourself out of any situation by making and carrying the right items.  That being said, I think TFC already succeeds at this wonderfully and I am very satisfied with how it facilitates this sort of playstyle that I want.  I simply think that skeleton projectiles are one of the only exceptions to this.

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Personally, I don't value "combat skill" as much as "preparedness with items."  To me, Minecraft is not really a game about player skill so much as an RPG with character skill and technology progression.

 

Arguing a concept is believable or realistic will not automatically make it considered for implementation. You basically have to convince a dev to implement it.

 

People have suggested shields many times. I would be surprised if a dev implemented them. Based off of what Kitty is saying, I'm doubting a rock throwing sling would be implemented either

 

TFC isn't a RPG. You really overestimate the "prepardness with items" part of TFC. TFC isn't about holding items that make it so you can't be killed. If there are skeletons you can't handle, you need to figure out how to avoid/evade them, not craft items that will protect you from them.

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TFC isn't a RPG. You really overestimate the "prepardness with items" part of TFC. TFC isn't about holding items that make it so you can't be killed. If there are skeletons you can't handle, you need to figure out how to avoid/evade them, not craft items that will protect you from them.

 

I strongly disagree - this is exactly how I treat TFC.  I treat it as a game about crafting whatever you need for the situation.  If you plan on facing zombies, make sure you not only have an axe, but a second extra axe at the ready.  If you're going on a long trip, food and water jugs should be carried.  If you're worried you're not protected enough in case of trouble, get some XP or raise your nutrition to end up extremely tough.  As it stands, the game can already be played like this.  The game has mild RPG elements in the skill and nutrition stats, and it has even more RPG mechanics with its "tech-tree" style progression.

 

It definitely is an RPG - at least, as I said, that is one way to play it, out of many possibilities.  I don't expect to force my style of play on everyone else - just that the possibly that my style of play continues to be an option among many, as it always has been.

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I will say with absolute certainty that if there is ever something added to the game that guarantees 100% protection against a specific damage type, it will require red and/or blue steel to create.

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My suggestion of some knockback and no damage was based on thought that it would give Stone Age players a chance to survive being trapped by giving enough room to escape. I'd even like to see the range such that you'd be in aggro range at max distance. For zombie, spiders, bears or endermen there are things you can do to possibly escape since melee does a small knockback. Either way I'm not too fussed, was more of a compromise suggestion since I don't care for blunt range weapon. Even well advanced I bob and weave and only engage if I have to.

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It is pretty clear that people here don't agree with me, so I'll just drop it.  I want to make it clear, though: I'm not an angry, raging troll, and I'm not complaining because I'm actually having a lot of trouble with it and because I'm upset about dying - I'm a very experienced, long-time, hardcore-mode player who can indeed take out skeletons just fine (with hammers now) when really needed (after lowering my draw distance), and do usually just run from them and ignore them instead anyway.  And that's all fine, it's not exactly a game-breaker.  It's just something that irks me a little bit; having to ask myself, "Why can't I just MAKE something to fight them?" like everything else.  It seems inconsistent with the world of TFC.  That is all, though - if you don't agree, we need not discuss it further.  I will continue to love and enjoy TFC regardless.

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Don't think anyone thought you were angry or trolling. You just have a different opinion. But I'm sure you can see the devs view that you can't kill all mobs from range.

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