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NikkyD

I am missing reasons to build a shelter

82 posts in this topic

Because of the topic with the easiest simple shelter i started a couple new worlds and played them each some hours to see if there was a general guideline that i could give ppl.

 

Finding first food and shelter is easy enough if you know a few MC basics on monster spawns and the TFC changes.

In every world i was sitting there with some food for a month, about 15 seeds planted that might grow before winter.

After about a month i found enough ore to make a saw and or pickaxe and with that i am technically set. There is really no reason for wanting iron other that wanting it. With a copper saw you can make everything from barrels (food and preservation) to all wooden tools like the loom or a bed (IF you can find some sheep) to doors and stuff.

 

The last time i just dug a 2 deep ditch around a spot and dug myself a hole at night and placed log-stashes around me so i was 100% safe.

Because i had no wool, i had to sit the night out but because of the spawn protection i could even work close to my safezone.

 

And i began to wonder "what kind of house should i build this time ?". And right now there is no reason why one should build a shelter. Monsters can be held off by simple means, a roof can be constructed like a giant umbrella or one of those party pavillions... but why build a shelter with a door etc ?

 

I feel that this is where the game has one of the biggest gaps between gameplay and reality. Rain and cold would kill you in reality but in MC/TFC they just dont matter and as they dont matter the seasons only matter in terms of food production but they dont threaten your health. Running around in heavy rain, wet to the bone, at near freezing temps... who cares ?! Just cut trees, farm your animals, weather is just an optical gimmick... and i feel that this is a part that need work sooner or later.

 

 

discussion welcome

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A shelter will be important sooner or later. If not for creative builds, you will need different rooms such as a smithy and a kitchen. It's great how this mod makes rooms actually useful.

 

Body temperature will be implemented at some point in the future, but for now i think the focus will shift towards an update for MC 1.8.x

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I don't set out to build a house, I just want to block line of sight for the inevitable skeleton that wanders over and keep the rain out(I don't like the noise). Somehow the solution to these two problems seems to resemble a(n) (ugly) house.

 

I've got a much bigger problem caring about metal tiers. I only ever progress to iron because I've accumulated so much bronze that I got bored with it and turned some of the excess into a bloomery. The difference in metal quality is too low for me to care ( With bronze being "weak" and everything above it feeling "weakish", eventually tipping over into "technically superior but kind of pointless").

 

That's just single player though, the game really doesn't work all that well by yourself, despite how most of us apparently try to play it (including myself, for reasons I can't articulate).

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A shelter will be important sooner or later. If not for creative builds, you will need different rooms such as a smithy and a kitchen.

 

No, i do not NEED it. Kitchen is a smooth stone with prep surface... can be anywhere. Food on it doesnt freeze or burn or get wet. I NEVER build smithys indoors...

 

Sure i can, but why go through the trouble ? I have one world with a perfectly built house with everything. But starting new worlds, why should i go through that trouble again ???

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The only way I can think to respond is that this is a game. The point of doing things is entirely up to you. An avenue for artistic expression, learn new things, a sense of accomplishment, trying creative approaches, etc. nothing in the game has a point unless you make it have one. So you don't like or want to build a house don't. Do what you want with the game. If you can't do what you want then find a game in which you can.

As has been stated the planned body temp mechanic may require shelter, but that is the future. Personally I build a basic shelter while I build a nice building that is functional, but really is a creative outlet for me and totally superfluous. Hell I mine for ores I don't need because I find it relaxing. The gathering is pointless, but the act of mining for me has a point.

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For me, I build because inevitably, zombies, spiders, and skellies wander over.

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I sympathize with OP. For some, Vanilla is purely creative, and that's fine. It still holds true for TFC with the added aesthetics, but it holds less weight when TFC carries a tagline like "how survival should have been". Personally, I love having creative freedom. But I need that creativity to be driven by something. Currently, I do something similar to OP with shelter. Dig a trench and block line of sight. 

 

I am eagerly awaiting body temperature.

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I need that creativity to be driven by something.

 

Exactly! I can't just build something because i have done that ad nauseum.

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How many times do you guys start a brand new world anyways? Or log into a new multiplayer server? I only ever commit to one seed per TFC version (b78, b79, etc.) and make it something pretty. If there are no new features, I totally understand starting new worlds is too much of a chore (esp. on single player).

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Minecraft will always be a creative game. Even when body temperature and the like is implemented, the closest thing to "shelter" that we can really code is your head not having direct access to the sky, i.e. a single block above you. There's never going to be anything to force you to build a house, because the only way we could implement that is to make everybody build essentially the exact same shape of house. We're not going to add anything to the game that forcefully removes players' ability to build creative structures in whatever shapes and sizes they so desire.

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Kitty, that is bull.

 

You already force players to build forges, bloomerys etc according to specific rules. How about you simply do the same with houses ?

 

I been thinking about how a (somewhat) physically correct heat system could be implemented. Basically its "fire source gives heat to surrounding blocks and every block passes heat on to the next etc, even "air" blocks". With wood having tiny capacity and more insulating and stone being a heat buffer. Glass being the worst, or open windows.

 

Now if you add a health system that hurts the player when its too cold, you need a closed shelter with a firesource. You even create the need for firewood and i would add wood splitting anyway because burning entire logs (in whole) for a little campfire is... a joke.

 

 

"Creative structures" is what vanilla MC is for. I doubt that ppl go play TFC because they want to build fantasy castles.

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The specific rules for forges, bloomeries, etc are literally "You must have A block in location (x, y,z) relative to the tile entity." So a forge is literally looking for a stone material block in (x+1, y, z) (x-1, y, z) (x, y, z+1) and (x, y, z-1) in relation to the (x, y, z) of the charcoal/coal block. The exact same goes for bloomeries and for blast furnaces. We check exact coordinate locations for a specific block.

 

That sort of system is essentially impossible to implement for a structure like a house, unless we say "all players must build a 9x9 house out of stone/wood blocks that has a roof that is 4 blocks off the ground and flat" or some other extremely specific shape.

 

Blocks already "pass heat" through the ambient temperature system. However, there is no way to determine whether or not a structure is "enclosed". The block directly next to a forge is going to be just as hot if the forge is inside, or if the forge is outside.

 

As for creative structures, there is a good chunk of TFC players who use TFC explicitly for all the blocks it adds so they can build creatively. I myself play TFC to build "fantasy castles." If you don't believe me, go look at our User Creations subforum where people post pictures of their creative builds:

 

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/forum/34-user-creations/

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i am not gonna argue on the creative part, i dont have an issue with that so, fair enough.

 

 

However it is possible, not easy but possible, to determine enclosed spaces. If you think about what it applies to, firesources, you only need to make ONE check once a firesource has been placed. Check if it is inside a house or not etc.

You can check so many things like if a block has sky, it cant be in a house. And outside you can simplify heat rules like a campfire makes all 8 blocks around it warm and thats it, sth like that.

 

Nothing is impossible to code, it may be hard and you may not be looking forward to do that kind of work but almost everything is possible.

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As far as I can see the mechanic described by Kitty achieves the same thing as that proposed by NikkyD in a less intensive and constricting way. With no wind the only reason to need to enclose a building is if the heat was reflected not just conductively in one direction. Even in the simplest form I would think this would be a huge amount of calculations.

I certainly would baulk at having to build to a set schematic for actual buildings or rooms.

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Possible, and feasible are two completely different things. And while everything is possible in the infinite world, not everything is possible within the limitations of an engine such as Minecraft and Forge without changing that engine (something that TFC developers in essence cannot do).

 

"Check if it is inside a house or not" is literally not that simple. Even vanilla villagers don't have that knowledge. Here's what a "house" looks like to a villager, and if they are standing where the red wool block is located they are considered "inside a house".

 

Posted Image

 

Before I try to explain this any further, it seems like you really don't quite have a grasp on how programming a Minecraft mod works. I'd like you instead to take a moment and think about the following situation:

  • You are located in a specific (x, y, z) location. You have no eyes, and you only take up the space of a single block.
  • You can move in any direction, one block at a time, and if there is a block where you moved to, you know what kind of block it is. However, every time that you move, you are increasing processor and memory usage, slightly lagging the game.
  • You can tell if where you are standing, there is a block between you and the build limit. You can also tell if that block is transparent, or takes up the entire 1m^3 space.

That's basically the limit of what you can do. Now I'm going to put you in 30 different locations, inside houses of different shapes, heights and sizes, inside structures that may have some of the pieces of a "house" but are not complete (e.g. a section of a wall is missing), as well as on top of a mountain, inside of a valley, in a cave, in a forest, etc. It is your job to come up with some way that doesn't completely lag the game out because you moved too much, that can be consistently used in the exact same pattern to determine if each of those 30 locations is "inside a house."

 

Edit: This "one" check also needs to be made repeatedly, or else players would be able to build a structure around their firesource so the check says "yes" and then they would be free to tear the structure down without the firesource ever knowing that it's no longer "inside."

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With no wind the only reason to need to enclose a building is if the heat was reflected not just conductively in one direction. Even in the simplest form I would think this would be a huge amount of calculations.

 

I can think of a few a relatively efficient methods for calculating player heat relative to an active heat source using A*. Wouldn't be efficient for say food storage or anything like that, but it'd be fairly believable.

 

Edit: (May not apply to this particular engine though, as per Kitty's rant.)

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I was thinking recursive spiral, essentially a 3D pathfinding with abort criteria (A* mentioned by Cerus).

 

I do write heavy java algorhythms from time to time and i even get paid for it... d'uh

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Alright, now could any of those java algorithms be applied to Minecraft without it completely lagging the game out?

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Ofc it will increase load, but not as much as you make it sound like.

 

Another idea that just popped into my head:

 

A fire simply spreads "warm air blocks" like minecraft water, just all directions including up, the second it hits a block that has sky it stops. Like water lvls there could be temp levels and never have more than some limit (so no sauna/sweat lodge possible). This would originate from a firesource and could be done once every x ticks to keep load in check.

Ofc this would have tons of exploits possible but the workload should be minimal if thats what you are worried about.

 

 

I am an RPG kind of player and standing inside my house with the fireplace going and still having 0 degrees because its winter outside... right, why am i starving again ? So that there is a reason to plant food... ah ok

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the second it hits a block that has sky it stops.

 

What is a block that has sky? That makes no sense.

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I've seen the check somewhere in some source, simply returns if the block has a free sky view aka no other block above it.

 

edit:

 

world.canBlockSeeTheSky(x, y, z)

 

usually checks should be called "is..." or "has..."

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Maybe I don't understand your idea. So people need roofs, not walls and a campfire isn't going to provide heat in open. Outside forges would give off no heat. In end this just sounds like a way to force players to play a certain way and constrain their choices. It seems akin to changing code to prevent possible "cheating" which punishes all other players.

You have a number of times brought up your coding prowess. There is an API to make an addon to provide functionality you desire and if the API is lacking then ask for changes in it. Or write a standalone mod that would be compatible.

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Bunsan, what i would like to have/achieve is that rooms can be filled with warm air, so that you can have a fireplace somewhere in the corner and move around freely without freezing SHOULD one day bodytemp come into play. Outside you would only warm up next to a fire and if it is raining and you are wet then even the fire wont prevent hypothermia.

 

For as long as you only need a fire somewhere, there is no reason to build a shelter which is absurd as it was one of the major achievements of stoneage ppl, building houses to be protected from the environment.

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So exactly what the code likely would do. A fire effects an X x Y x Z around itself. As Kitty said it would likely only look for there being a block over your head to be concidered a shelter. Well if you want to move about doing things you'll need to keep moving that block or perhaps more intelligently have a roof.

Edit: the point Kitty is trying to make clear to you is that detecting what the room is is a major load. You say put fire on wall, well then it would have to detect all 6 directions to determine if it is a room. But how many blocks would it need to detect? 1 would be silly, but the number of blocks in a wall to size of room is not linear. What if there is open hole to go into another room, does this negate the room. What about rooms that are irregular shape. Then it needs to keep calculating this repeatedly. Is it possible? Sure. Is it worthwhile or would it make a significant difference to final result? I doubt it.

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