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Xaxyx

In Need of Support, or: Enemy Mine

11 posts in this topic

I appear to be quite confused about how exactly support beams are supposed to work.  I thought I understood the wiki explanation.  Anyone I ask about support beams seems to recite the wiki word for word, in precise alignment with my supposed understanding.  Yet the roof continues to cave in on me.

 

Consider this (supposedly simple) situation:

 

Key:

V = vertical support beam

H = horizontal support beam

C = corner of vertical and horizontal support beams

S = Stone

S = Stone (that I'm about to remove)

 

Side view:

 

SSSSSSS

SCHHHCS

SV VS

SV VS

SSSSSSS

 

Here I have the most basic of configurations, I might purport.  Two vertical beams spaced the maximum distance apart, and one horizontal beam connecting them.  Above the beam is stone; at each end of the beam is stone; the floor is stone; should it be relevant, the far wall from this perspective is solid stone as well. 

 

Now, based on what I've read on the wiki, and seen in images, and had explained to me by other players, the horizontal beam should protect me from cave-ins should I choose to mine any block within a distance of four from the beam on the X and/or Z axis, and/or within a distance of one on the Y axis.  This, I have interpreted to mean, is a distance measured from any of the spaces containing horizontal beam -- including the corners where the horizontal beam joins with the vertical beams.  So in theory, I could start at either corner, count out 4 steps X, 4 steps Z, and 1 step up or down, and still mine that block safely.

 

But what I did was even simpler.  I merely mined the block that I struck through in my cheesy illustration: block "S" -- the block right next to the corner, on the same Y.  And that caused a cave-in.

 

Can someone please explain what I did wrong, or what I'm not understanding?

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The corners do not count. They are vertical beams.

You are correct the stone you mined was supported. However when you mine raw stone, supported or not it does a search of a 4 block radius for any stone that is unsupported, has an air space it can fall to and there is also a requirement for above, I think it has to have a solid block above it. If it finds such a block it has a chance of starting a cave-in. Cave-ins can propagate into area where stone is supported and break support beams.

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All right.  But wouldn't the sections of the beams that do count -- the middle three spaces -- also radiate protection out to a distance of four?  Isn't the space adjacent the corner within that radius?  The illustrations on the wiki certainly seem to imply that.

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Sorry edited after you posted to answer part 2.

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No problem.

 

So what you seem to be saying is, whenever I mine, no matter how many support beams I have in place or in what configuration, there's a chance that the layout behind the wall, outside of the scope of my influence, may simply cause a cave-in anyway?  There are no means at my disposal to prevent this? 

 

Is this in turn why players are currently so loathe to go mining in caves and crevasses?

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Now, based on what I've read on the wiki, and seen in images, and had explained to me by other players, the horizontal beam should protect me from cave-ins should I choose to mine any block within a distance of four from the beam on the X and/or Z axis, and/or within a distance of one on the Y axis.

 

This sentence right here is where the misunderstanding occurs. It does not mean that you can mine any block within this radius and no cave ins will occur. It means that the blocks within this area cannot be the epicenter of a cave in.

 

As Bunsan stated, when you mine any raw stone block, even if it is within the supported area, it does a scan around it to see if it can find any blocks that are not supported, and try to make that block the epicenter of the cave in.

 

In essence, if you want to prevent cave ins from happening, you need to make sure that any block with space underneath it is supported by a support beam, not just the block that you are mining.

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Aah.  Yes, that's quite a different animal.  If I may be so bold (and this appears to be a habit of mine), I might humbly suggest that the wiki page on support beams be updated to make that distinction.  To wit:

 

"A single horizontally placed support beam will prevent cave-ins in an area that is 4 blocks in each horizontal direction, and 1 block above and below the beam (9x9x3 Area)"

 

should perhaps instead read:

 

"A single horizontally placed support beam will prevent unsupported blocks in an area that is 4 blocks in each horizontal direction, and 1 block above and below the beam (9x9x3 area), from causing a cave-in".

 

And:

 

"Unsupported blocks that are mined can also propagate cave-in's back to supported areas"

 

should perhaps instead read:

 

"Unsupported blocks that cause cave-ins outside of this area can also propagate cave-ins back to supported areas".

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Neither of those sentences are correct.

 

Blocks within 4 blocks of a horizontal direction and 1 block above are by definition supported. It does not matter if the block within that radius has a block underneath it or not, it is still going to do a scan. What matters is the blocks outside of the radius that are unsupported. You can mine a completely supported block, and it will still scan around and if it finds an unsupported block, that unsupported block can be the center of the cave in.

 

The second sentence does not need to be changed, because it is talking about mined unsupported blocks in general. Which, by definition, is any block outside of the support beam radius with space underneath it. A cave in can never happen inside of the area, so they will always be outside of the area. The sentence is there to simply let you know that support beams are preventative measures, and not protection. If a cave in does happen, the support beam will not protect you from it.

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I think then that a definition of supported would prove helpful.  That in turn would serve to clarify the beam's true purpose: to prevent blocks within its radius from being the epicenters of cave-ins, as supported blocks cannot be the epicenters of cave-ins.

 

You mention that cave-ins can never "happen" inside of the area of support provided by a horizontal beam.  To clarify: by this are you only referring to the fact that cave-ins cannot be *instantiated* inside of the area of support, and not to the fact that cave-ins can still be experienced within that area as the result of the propogation of an initial cave-in that is instantiated outside of that area?

 

It was also mentioned in this thread that support beam corners (the block where vertical support beams and horizontal support beams intersect) do not provide support to nearby blocks.  Can you confirm this?

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Correct. The cave in cannot start inside the radius, but it can start elsewhere and spread into the radius.

 

I can also confirm that only horizontal beams provide support. Horizontal means something that looks like this -

 

Corner/L-shaped is not horizontal, it's L-shaped.

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Thank you.  I'll be sure to pass this information along to similarly interested parties.  I'd again recommend that you add this information to the wiki as well.

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