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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Kittychanley

The "Magic" of TFC

61 posts in this topic

I've decided to create a poll and ask the community what their opinion is on addons and applications that possibly spoil the "magic" of TFC by disclosing the numbers behind the scenes, or share other information that can possibly ruin the fun of a mechanic because once it has been seen, it cannot be un-seen. Two examples of this are the smithing and taste mechanics, which have both already been banned from being disclosed in the Discussion and Guides forums, as well as the wiki. It should be noted that alloy calculators do not fall into this category, since all of the numbers and math for alloying are publicly posted on the wiki, as those numbers are necessary in order to successfully create an alloy.

 

http://terrafirmacraft.com/faq.html

 

Are there any 'forbidden topics' or TFC specific rules I should know about?

    [*]We also ask that you do not post numbers in regards to the mechanics of TFC. One example of this would be the numbers behind smithing, and guides on how to always very quickly get a perfect durability tool. Numbers like these cannot be unseen once learned, and will quickly ruin the fun of these mechanics for a lot of players. You are obviously welcome to do research and figure out these numbers and details for yourself, we just ask that you do not make this information public on our forums or IRC channel. As Dunkleosteus once said, "TFC is like a magic trick: it's fun and exciting, and you may really want to know how it works, but once you find out, the magic is lost, and it won't ever come back."

 

 

I'm using strawpoll so that players who do not have a forum account will still be able to vote, so please share this post with anyone you know who plays TFC and uses addons and/or applications, even if they don't have a forum account.

 

http://strawpoll.me/4066741

 

Edit: Due to some confusion on what the poll was actually asking, a new one has been created:

 
Edited by Kittychanley
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I voted for the spoiler forum.

 

I understand that having information of this sort revealed destroys immersion for some people. On the other hand, I was about to quit this mod, or at least the whole blacksmithing system, because to me it looked as if smithing was totally random. When I started to get into it, I was able to produce one or two pieces, but mostly I just spent ages of game time and lots of coal on failure, and didn't think I'd ever be able to get a suit of armour together.

 

My salvation was the fact that a forum search revealed that there were apparently numbers leading to precise results, even if those were banned from being posted. That told me that 1) it wasn't random, 2) others had figured things out, 3) I would be able to as well. So I made a few reasonable premises and did some algebra, and now I can make any item I want in a reasonable time because I have my own method. That doesn't mean my sense of accomplishment is lessened, because 1) I have the nice items, and 2) I know I figured out the maths which I suspect not anyone will be able to, as plenty of people just declare they can't do mathematics rather than even try to think such things out.

 

And for people who don't want to do the maths yet get frustrated with just randomly hitting things, an add-on might be salvation, while others will never want to use it.

 

So, I'm all for letting people decide their own play style rather than forcing one or the other on them.

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I think more than anything, that just says that there needs to be a better explanation of how the anvil mechanic works. An explanation that doesn't post numbers, and doesn't hand the answers to you. Once you know how the mechanic actually works, there is absolutely no reason that a player should be randomly hitting things. The biggest problem I see is that there are players who don't completely understand the rules of the minigame, or what hitting the different buttons even does. I'm planning on making an official video for the anvil wiki page that goes a bit more in depth into how the mechanic works, since it really is hard to get across all the little things of the minigame in just a text wiki page.

 

The problem with these kinds of addons is that they aren't actually helping players, they just handing players the answers.

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I voted to let them stay. Now, I am not in favor of addons that are essentially cheats, that give you all of the information. I honestly wish for more abstraction in the game, but that would almost require redundancy to be done well. I had a lot of trouble locating ores when I started playing, and it started to become dismaying. However, when watching one of Dunkleosteus' streams, he mentioned that (quite obviously, but I'm a little slow with math) that if you find the end of a vein, you can count blocks and find the ore quickly almost every time. I was overjoyed, and had a lot more fun and progress for a week or so. After that, I grew tired of how accurate the method was. There was no more challenge in locating the vein, but still the tedious search for traces in the beginning (ores were really hard to come by back then, especially garnerite). I also do not think that it would have been much better if I were to have figured this out myself (I knew the range of the propick, it is listed in many places).

 

I never got tired of smithing though, because I never learned any tricks, just kept getting a better idea of how far each button moved the arrow, and writing down the best ways I found for each item for each metal in a book by my forge. I could always try to get even better results, and even if I found the best I got the feel good of a perfect result and stacks of loot to break the tedium.Also, TFC is open source. I can look through the code really easily and pick out the info I need, grab the world seed and my username and run the calculations. Java is very readable, and especially so the TFC code. (good job on that devs, btw :))

 

I think that people who want them will be upset if they are denied. I think that people who don't want them don't have to use them. I think that the experience of getting a feel for it is better than having your hand held or even figuring it out on your own, because that is a longer and more lasting progression that doesn't have anything to do with tiers. I think mods should be able to experiment with those features however they want, without creating a dichotomy of "true-players" and "cheaters", and without fear of restricting their audience to only one of those categories. I think I'm very bad at explaining myself. I hope this was all understandable :P

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Having a video like that would be very helpful to new players.

 

In regards to the numbers, we all enjoy TFC in different ways, everyone in its own way.

For some it is just because of the math behind the game, and I feel it is not fair to deprive those players to share the way they enjoy the game.

 

Putting it behind a different sub forum is a way to protect people who do not want to see this, and still allow the people who do not think the same way to still have a place on the forum.

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I think that people who want them will be upset if they are denied. I think that people who don't want them don't have to use them.

 

The problem is that it isn't that black and white. Yes there are players who have been playing TFC for a long time, and have already made the decision of whether or not they would use addons like this. The problem comes with people who are relatively new to TFC. These players may have not ever even tried out the smithing mechanic for themselves, but saw the spoiler addon alongside everything else that they may have installed/are using right from the start. These players never even get to experience the mechanic for themselves, because it's possible they didn't even know that the addon would spoil the mechanic before they even got a chance to try.

 

By either banning these addons, or putting them into a subforum that is behind a clear warning that these addons will ruin aspects of the game for most players, it prevents that from happening to new players who don't consciously make the decision.

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That's a very valid point. Perhaps a required tag for spoilers or game-changers would be best? I still feel that a separate section for things deemed "cheaty" could possibly alienate some mods or users.

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In regards to the numbers, we all enjoy TFC in different ways, everyone in its own way.

For some it is just because of the math behind the game, and I feel it is not fair to deprive those players to share the way they enjoy the game.

 

We're not stopping anybody from playing the game the way they want to. What we're stopping is players sharing information that ruins gameplay for everybody else. The mod is open source and players are more than welcome to use the code to figure things out for themselves.

 

To make a comparison, consider the harry potter series or any movie that has a surprise ending. Some people might read the books beforehand and learn the shocking twist before going to the theater to watch the movie. There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. However, if that person then walked into the full theater on release day, full of people who have and have not read the book, and then screamed at the top of their lungs "SNAPE KILLED DUMBLEDORE" before the movie even started, then there is a problem. We're trying to stop that from happening, because it ruins the experience for everybody else. Ruining a mechanic for everybody else who plays the game just because you feel you have the right to share everything that you have learned in a public way is in my opinion a very selfish attitude.

 

 

That's a very valid point. Perhaps a required tag for spoilers or game-changers would be best? I still feel that a separate section for things deemed "cheaty" could possibly alienate some mods or users.

 

Generally speaking, I would be all for a title tag. The problem is that in my experience of being the admin of this forum the past years, the majority of players completely ignore tags, and many forum members don't use the tags to begin with. Take for example the Servers forum. There is a clear, bold, large font rule at the top stating that new posts must include the TFC version number in the title. And yet if you scroll through the first page, you'll see a whole bunch of posts that break that rule.

 

It is much easier from my point of view as a moderator to move these topics into a specific subforum, than it is to go through and monitor to make sure that each one is using the proper tags, that are generally ignored by readers anyways.

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You're right, a separate section is probably the best solution right now. I didn't even think about the work that would put on you. Didn't you guys used to have someone that works on the site? If they are still around and willing, making it required to add at least some tags to a post might help you out a bit. 

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SpAnser is our webmaster, but he primarily handles the behind the scenes such as issues with our hosting company, setting up how the ads are handled on the website, and just keeping the forum software up to date. I've looked into the tagging system that we currently have, and unfortunately there really aren't any options other than going out and finding a completely different forum software to use for this website.

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I'm of two minds. I really don't like limiting how players play the game, but at that same time this is the official forums for the mod and these type of mods completely negate important parts of the mod. The issue becomes where to draw the line. Where do we decide what is cheating and what isn't.

 

TFC is built for SMP, so I think the line should be drawn considering their viability and stability. There are tools that server can use to block players running certain client-side mods from joining a server, so they have an ability to block minimaps, waila, etc. However a tool that allows any player who knows the map seed to get the solution to any anvil recipe can't be blocked. The only protection is keeping the seed secret, which is mostly possible, but if it becomes known then some players get a very unfair advantage. So my feeling is that any tool like this should not be permitted on the official mod forum in any form. Of course someone is free to develop and distribute this type of tool and players are free to use them if they choose, but I don't think it should be something promoted here.

 

Just my 2 cents.

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Perhaps it is possible to redesign these mechanics, adding a bit of randomization, so that people can't just look up some numbers to get what they want.

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I do not understand why an addon that break the magic would be more welcome than a guide that does the same. And as I do remember, there is a guy who made a detailed post on how many pixels every hit where moving the cursor, and the post was modified to delete the numbers.

 

If we have a spoiler addon subsection, will we have a spoiler guide subsection and a spoiler wiki ? Just tagging the post

in the title would be enough... if we decide to allow it. I think that creating a subsection will only encourage people to make even more of these type of addon.

 

Yes, making stuff on the anvil can be hard, but if you do not learn and remember the perfect strikes to make a sheet of steel, then you will never complete a 5 level blast furnace, you will quit before the end. Yes a guide to understand how the anvil work would be welcome, and maybe give guides on how to chose you hit, and how to make wiser choices for the next time.

 

My opinion is that TFC is going away from the rule of "don't reveal the secrets to keep the magic", to a mod that fully support Waila (that is kind of cheatty from my point of view, as you know just too much without having to interact with anything). I want to be clear, I am not against people who want to use it, but I think it's going against the magic and I am not using it.

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Perhaps it is possible to redesign these mechanics, adding a bit of randomization, so that people can't just look up some numbers to get what they want.

 

We already use randomization. The problem is that there is no such thing as "true" randomization, so no matter what we do, somebody else can use code to figure it out.

 

I do not understand why an addon that break the magic would be more welcome than a guide that does the same. And as I do remember, there is a guy who made a detailed post on how many pixels every hit where moving the cursor, and the post was modified to delete the numbers.

 

If we have a spoiler addon subsection, will we have a spoiler guide subsection and a spoiler wiki ? Just tagging the post

in the title would be enough... if we decide to allow it. I think that creating a subsection will only encourage people to make even more of these type of addon.

 

Yes, making stuff on the anvil can be hard, but if you do not learn and remember the perfect strikes to make a sheet of steel, then you will never complete a 5 level blast furnace, you will quit before the end. Yes a guide to understand how the anvil work would be welcome, and maybe give guides on how to chose you hit, and how to make wiser choices for the next time.

 

My opinion is that TFC is going away from the rule of "don't reveal the secrets to keep the magic", to a mod that fully support Waila (that is kind of cheatty from my point of view, as you know just too much without having to interact with anything). I want to be clear, I am not against people who want to use it, but I think it's going against the magic and I am not using it.

 

That was the entire purpose of this post. My original decision was to follow suit of all the other forums and ban the addons completely. There were a few people in IRC who considered this censorship to be too harsh, and so the poll was created. The only thing that this will change is the Addons forum. There will be no changes to the discussion or guides forum to add the allowance of spoilers.

 

On the note of WAILA, please realize that I took great care into only adding information that players can already get through standard means, and the primary reason that WAILA support was added is because without the support, WAILA was actually providing users with wrong information. So before I added support, it was possible that while looking at a block of shale, WAILA would try to tell you that it was a block of marble. For 99.9% of the stuff that I added with the WAILA support, it's just information that you would get by clicking on the block and looking inside, or by looking at a calendar before you start a process, and then looking at the calendar to see how much time is left before it is completed. The only exception I can think of is the crops showing growth percentage, and that was added to help stop the incorrect bug reports of "My crops aren't growing!"

 

I strongly suggest that you actually give the WAILA support a try. If you come across anything that you think is truly "cheaty" beyond what you can get by interacting with the block by opening the UI or breaking it, then please post it here: http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/8132-waila-configuration/

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We already use randomization. The problem is that there is no such thing as "true" randomization, so no matter what we do, somebody else can use code to figure it out.

 

 

That was the entire purpose of this post. My original decision was to follow suit of all the other forums and ban the addons completely. There were a few people in IRC who considered this censorship to be too harsh, and so the poll was created. The only thing that this will change is the Addons forum. There will be no changes to the discussion or guides forum to add the allowance of spoilers.

 

On the note of WAILA, please realize that I took great care into only adding information that players can already get through standard means, and the primary reason that WAILA support was added is because without the support, WAILA was actually providing users with wrong information. So before I added support, it was possible that while looking at a block of shale, WAILA would try to tell you that it was a block of marble. For 99.9% of the stuff that I added with the WAILA support, it's just information that you would get by clicking on the block and looking inside, or by looking at a calendar before you start a process, and then looking at the calendar to see how much time is left before it is completed. The only exception I can think of is the crops showing growth percentage, and that was added to help stop the incorrect bug reports of "My crops aren't growing!"

 

I strongly suggest that you actually give the WAILA support a try. If you come across anything that you think is truly "cheaty" beyond what you can get by interacting with the block by opening the UI or breaking it, then please post it here: http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/8132-waila-configuration/

 

To be honest, it was before the release of .16, but before, for example you could see what the ore block would drop (poor, normal, rich) and I felt it was a bit too much. I use blockhead to have a nicer texture on the ore blocks, but I want to have to remember what texture is what, and not just let waila tell me what it is. In fact, I just dont want to know what bloc i am looking at.

 

Of course it's better to give righ information instead of wrong information and I think that what was done in waila (from the screenshots you posted) is clearly amazing. I would use it for things like to see the content of the bloomery of blast furnace and anvil. If you tell me I can disable the "show the block I am looking at", then I would try it for sure!

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To be honest, it was before the release of .16, but before, for example you could see what the ore block would drop (poor, normal, rich) and I felt it was a bit too much. I use blockhead to have a nicer texture on the ore blocks, but I want to have to remember what texture is what, and not just let waila tell me what it is. In fact, I just dont want to know what bloc i am looking at.

 

Of course it's better to give righ information instead of wrong information and I think that what was done in waila (from the screenshots you posted) is clearly amazing. I would use it for things like to see the content of the bloomery of blast furnace and anvil. If you tell me I can disable the "show the block I am looking at", then I would try it for sure!

 

Did you read the post I linked? It specifically asks for players to reply stating what things they would like WAILA to not show. So if there are specific blocks like ore or logs that you don't want the information on, I can add a config option to disable it. The whole point of that post is asking the community what config options they would like to disable things.

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Like most other people, I voted for the spoiler sub-forum. I don't think any of the numbers should be banned outright. If the discovery of certain values is considered a key element of the game, then they should be at least partially randomized so that they are different in each seed.

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Like most other people, I voted for the spoiler sub-forum. I don't think any of the numbers should be banned outright. If the discovery of certain values is considered a key element of the game, then they should be at least partially randomized so that they are different in each seed.

 

We already do that. The problem is that these addons and applications take that into consideration, and just ask for the user to input their world seed, which is easily obtainable in single player by just using the /seed command, and is public knowledge on a fair amount of servers.

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We're not stopping anybody from playing the game the way they want to. What we're stopping is players sharing information that ruins gameplay for everybody else. The mod is open source and players are more than welcome to use the code to figure things out for themselves.

 

I have never said anything of the like, I am saying that we are depriving people who have a particular interest from a community.

 

This is the official TFC community, in my oppinion it should cater to every single type of playing style, also the ones one did not think of at first or that one disapproves of.

Also, when you ban this type of sharing, eventually other communities might pop up, diluting the information you and others are able to get from this one.

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting to mark these toppics and/or add-ons, either by the use of tags or the use of a sub forum, but banning them is wrong in my oppinion.

 

 

We already do that. The problem is that these addons and applications take that into consideration, and just ask for the user to input their world seed, which is easily obtainable in single player by just using the /seed command, and is public knowledge on a fair amount of servers.

 

As soon as a player has to find out the seed and input it elsewhere where is not at all accidental more.

One of your mayor points, people accidentally seeing something and not being able to unsee it, is not even close to the above mentioned deliberate action.

 

 

Communities are a diverse group of people, diversity is where its strength comes from, pushing away any part of that community makes the community as a whole weaker.

 

We all know you have a strong oppinion on the matter, and If you will not change your mind on the merrit of a discussion, why not just adhere to the following saying; Keep your friends close and your enimies closer.

Edited by Lenaco
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One of the things I love most about TFC, is how you actually have to evolve a skill when playing the game. Not a game stats skill, but a real life skill.Once you learn how to prospect for ore you have the skill, it does not matter if you are starting a new world. 

When the prospecting pick was first introduced I just hated the thing and if someone had offered me a easy way out I probably would have taken. That would have denied me the pleasure of learning and winning over it.

That said II will agree with Kitty. Some addons break systems that were well balanced and intended to be played in a certain way.

Banning would be in the Devs right, since this is their forum and website. Maybe a way out so not to alienate people that in the end also love and play the mod would be to create a specific section on the forum  that would be heavily marked.

Love and peace to all.

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Activate the debug screen, break a bit of magic, is a type of cheat because debug screen, show the rock layers types, you dont need empiric dig to the layer to discover your type.If anyone make a mod to show, how TFC create a ore vein, and mark the position with one great X, this break the game. (IMO)If anyone make a mod to give a exactly anvil combination for one specific tool, this break the merit of a good blacksmith player because your skill is the same as another with this type of mod. (IMO)

 

My point is: have "mods" and "mods", some part is not consideret a type of cheating, another part maybe is considered.Thanks.---------------------------If anyone search for advantage in TFC, is soo easy taken the server seed and make one local SSP copy, and  find any you search in creative, ore veins, fly around the world, and the location is moreless the same in real server.

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Time to play devil's advocate:

 

I'm going to challenge the the concept of "once it has been seen, it cannot be un-seen" when regard to TFC numbers

 

The theory behind it seems to be based off of knowing how magic tricks work ruins the magic of magic tricks, which is true because its easy to remember how a trick works

 

But the smithy mechanics for example are a bunch of numbers related to smithy actions. I remember reading a post on the MCF where someone posted the numbers related to the actions. "Ruining the magic" would basically require memorizing the numbers. I'm doubting seeing the numbers had any affect on the "magic" without a active attempt to memorize the numbers. This may be different for people with a photographic memory, but I'm doubting that small demographic is the concern here

 

Really the scenario here is once you memorize the numbers or abstracted numbers (which will happen if you play the mod long enough), you will remember them. I think the real issue here is people like Kitty know the game in and out and can't look at the game with fresh eyes.

 

Yes those first Tin or Zinc tools you made years ago was probably the most fun you had anviling tools. Once you figured out how to make perfect tools, it probably just became routine. That isn't coming back and you don't want people to miss out on the experience

 

The thing is though, not everyone likes that experience. I like solving differential equations for example, a lot of people don't and would wish they could just use a program that gives them the awnser. Its the same thing with smithing. They would rather just use a program that just gives them thier awnser. To each thier own

 

And there are probably people out there who would prefer the numbers available so they could do the math themselves rather than use the program

 

You can't please everyone. Some people will object to allowing anything because the fun has been ruined from them (which probably happened by playing the mod a lot rather than a posting of information on the forum), some people want more information, and some people want the awnser handed to them.

 

What I'm questioning here is the amount of alarm based off someone posting information without spoilor tags when the assimilation of the information requires active memorization or lots of time playing the mod

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I think you are taking Kitty's point a little too literally. It is more that once the initial success is taken away it is gone. A player who randomly walks at things, gets frustrated and uses the cheating tool has lost that opportunity. Sure it is hard to memorize numbers, but a 6 sequence move for an item you are going to make a lot of is fairly easy. I figured out my optimal moves for iron plates, iron blooms etc and did not have to reference anything to do them as it was easy to remember them. The danger then is that you go to a new world with intention of doing it legit, but after some struggle you just use the tool for one recipe, just one, well maybe another, one more, and there is full cheat again. I know this as helped run servers and it is hard not to use some of the admin tools to recover stuff or just get to TP to somewhere, or just fly a little, etc. For this reason I have a second account I used to play on servers where I have admin powers to avoid the temptation.

 

My concern is the effect tools that let you be the most efficient blacksmith on a server, supplanting someone who has worked long and hard to learn and perfect the various sequences. I don't think this is something an official site should promote in any way.

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Why not just accept that there are people who do not share your views?

I understand your point of view, I just disagree with it.

 

If you want a democratic decision, you should go with the 70ish % that say sub forum.

If you don't want anything of the like on this forum, take a developers decision to not allow it, you would be fully within your rights.

 

But if you want us to change our opinions, don't bother because that is not going to happen, just as we will not be able to change your mind.

 

The only thing I have been trying to say is that there are a lot of people with different opinions, and some of these views will be directly opposed to your views.

 

What kind of community do we want to be, one that accepts all based on the mutual respect and admiration for this wonderful game or one that restricts people that do not share a particular point of view?

 

I am very sorry for stating it this bluntly, but that is what it eventually boils down to.

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I think one of the key things you are missing here Lenaco is that the whole point of this post was to get the community's opinion on the matter, because we have already taken a developer's decision on all of the other forums, and are wondering if we should remain consistent and apply the same decision to this forum, or make an exception due to the fact that the creation of an addon or application takes a great deal more effort than a discussion or guide that's just talking about the numbers, and not actually applying them in any sort of direct matter. This post in combination with the poll is for a civil discussion for the community to try and change our minds, so that we do possibly make the exception and allow these spoilers in just the Addons forum.

 

We are stating what our opinions are on the matter. We are asking you to try and change our opinions by providing your points of view on the matter. We have provided explanations backing up why we have the opinions that we do, and we are asking that you provide explanations for your opinions as well. If you are coming into this topic with the expectation that your opinion cannot possibly be changed, and that our opinion cannot possibly be changed, I kindly ask that you leave.

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