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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Kittychanley

The "Magic" of TFC

61 posts in this topic

How do you expect to change my mind by saying I haven't fully understood what it is about and repeating the same arguments again and again.

I have only seen the same arguments I have been seeing on this forum ever since I joined, no matter what counter argument was used, so you guys are as dug in as I am.

 

The poll is a very good and clear way to see what the community really feels, because it is anonymous.

Now look at the amount of votes, and then took at the amount of unique posters in this thread...

 

My opinion in this is pretty much made up but not set in stone mind you. But that has more to do with the fact that I am not defending my personal opinion but that I am defending the right for people to enjoy a community that does not suppresses any information.

 

As requested I will not post in this topic again.

 

P.s. Just to clarify, with 'you' I do not mean you personal Kitty or Bunsan, I am merely referring to the opposite side in this discussion.

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FYI I'm just a moderator, my posts are either my own thoughts or an attempt to enforce the rules of the forum. They in no way should they be given anymore weight than an other player. I have no access to the devs beyond what all players have via IRC and PMs.

My concerns with the kind of tools being discussed come from my experience running a server and so understanding the consequences of an uneven playing field.

I would support the creation of an addon that allowed players to craft even high end tools. Players could then use this in SSP or on servers who choose to have such an Addon on their server. Players crafting a tool would loose out on the smithing bonuses, so there is a substantial reward for learning smithing. And yes they are substantial, I haven't crafted much Armour (for general smithing skill) and I get ~35% bonus for tools, which is substantial in my opinion.

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In my opinion there is no "magic". All the numbers are already known.

If people don't want to know the numbers and figure stuff out for themselves, that's great. If people want to know the numbers up front and plan their progress in advance, that's great also.

On the HappyDiggers TFC server we've had quite a bit of discussion about players being able to teleport. The majority of our players enjoy the convenience it brings. But a lot of players didn't like that others were able to move around effortlessly since they themselves preferred not to do so. We decided to cater to both points of view and added the "Hardcore" world where players don't have access to convenience commands and have to play more or less regular TFC without teleportation.

Shutting out one group in favor of the other would be a mistake. It divides parts of the community. In the end it's all about people enjoying the game. It shouldn't matter how they enjoy it.

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I'm really struggling to understand Bunsan's arguments, They seemed to be based off of a rationality of comparative advantage, which may have made some sort of sense back in the day where there were 3 prongs and the durability of the tool was dependant on how close you were to the little prong

 

But now there is one prong and the really only penalties for taking longer are hammer durability and coal consumption. Any differences in tools are related to skill (which basically translates to # of blacksmith operations)

 

I have no idea what its like to run a server, but I'm having a hard time comprehending the "severity" of the issue of the legit blacksmith versus the tool using blacksmith

 

Are you saying that SMP servers are so "economically" competative that a legit blacksmith that uses say 3 times the amount of hammers and coal compared to the tool using blacksmith would find themselves out of a job?

Edited by Palisight
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Take a look at it this way. You have two players:

  • Player 1 - The resident blackmsmith. He has taken the time and effort to figure out the smithing system in a way other than just using the numbers. He has a sense of accomplishment in doing so, and therefore is often willing to smith tools and armor for his fellow players either for free or for a fair trade. He has decided that this is his specialty on the server, and generally speaking when he is logged in the majority of his time is spent smithing, because he enjoys it and enjoys the sense of accomplishment. This player possibly does not enjoy many of the other mechanics of TFC, and if he wasn't the resident smith for his fellow players, would likely stop playing. His smithing skill levels are likely higher than all the other players on the server, but possibly not completely maxed out because he still has to put effort into smithing all the different things.
  • Player 2 - The app user. This player possibly is brand new to TFC and the server that he has joined. Rather than trade with the resident blacksmith, this player has decided that he's just going to make all of his stuff himself, because it's such an extremely easy task to do with the help of this spoiler app. They decide that the increased durability for the higher skill level of Player 1 isn't worth the effort of travelling on the server and trading goods. He'd rather just make his stuff at home since he can do so quickly and easily, which also means that with the help of the app he can very quickly level up his smithing skill to be on the same level if not higher as Player 1, with little to no thought on his part since the app is doing all the logic for him.  This player then goes and tells his friends about this app, and they start using it too instead of trading goods with the resident blacksmith, or perhaps now go to Player 2 for their tools since he is faster, and his prices are cheaper due to the fact that he doesn't have to do nearly as much thinking when smithing as Player 1.

In essence, the app has completely replaced the functionality of player 1. All of his hard work is for nothing and unless he also starts using the app, his role on the server is gone. For many players, having their key role taken away from then will likely mean that they just quit the server, and have a very bitter feeling towards the mod as a whole.

 

Edit: By allowing these types of addons to be posted on this forum, even just in a subforum, it implies that the developers of this mod are ok with the players using it, or even that we encourage players to use it. This is the mod's official forum, whether we like it or not, that means that everything on it has a sense of being "official" and endorsed by the developers. Because of this, players who feel wronged due to an addon that is publicly distributed on this official forum will likely get mad at us, the official TFC staff, for allowing it to be posted in the first place, and less so at the actual author of the addon, or the other players who decided to start using it.

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I think maybe my point is best made with a parallel. Say someone made a client side X-ray addon for TFC, would that be ok? Properly used a propick tells the player where the ores are. Some players don't want to learn the propick and do not want to master it. So they use X-ray to locate the ores. For SSP who cares, but on a server? Is it ok to use X-ray? What about on a PvP server?

I feel a tool that allows a player to see through the smithing mini-game gives an unfair advantage and negates any skill. Those who love and are good at it find there skill unmarketable. On a PvP server it would give a huge advantage. Making armour is hard until you have solved the puzzle, even for the most experienced smiths. Someone being able to produce armour as efficiently as possible on day 1 is a huge advantage.

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On the HappyDiggers TFC server we've had quite a bit of discussion about players being able to teleport. The majority of our players enjoy the convenience it brings. But a lot of players didn't like that others were able to move around effortlessly since they themselves preferred not to do so. We decided to cater to both points of view and added the "Hardcore" world where players don't have access to convenience commands and have to play more or less regular TFC without teleportation.

 

There's a huge difference here though. While the ability to teleport can be considered an unfair advantage, it's not an advantage that actively hurts other players that decide not to use it. Players who like to explore but don't want to use the teleportation system can still go exploring. Just because their friend teleports home doesn't mean that player can't get home too.

 

Spoiler apps like for smithing actually replace the skill of the blacksmith players on a server. The blacksmiths who decide not to use it are directly affected by the fact that there are players on a server who do use it, due to the nature of competition and having roles on a server.

 

These blacksmiths who are now at a severe disadvantage because players have gone to other routes for their tools will likely be mad. But who can they be mad at? They can't be mad at their server admins because there's nothing a server admin can do to stop players from using these cheaty apps other than ban any players caught using them. From what I've seen posted in this thread, most server admins wouldn't even ban players for using it, because they want to let all their players play however they want. They can't get mad at the addon developer for making the addon, and ask them to take it down, because the addon developer isn't going to take something down after putting so much effort into creating it. So who does that leave? The TFC Staff. They get mad at us because it is entirely within our power to remove the addon from the forum, as already shown by us removing discussion spoilers from the rest of our forum.

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Now I got curious, did someone actually made a addon that can be installed on client side only and help a player smith armor perfectly on first try? More importantly is there any way for me as a server admin to block such addon?

Our server is very oriented towards commerce and trading and something like that would ruin our smiths.  

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when I thought we were talking about addons I was voting for a separate and well marked spoiler tread on the forum. Now that I fully understand what are we talking about. I strongly vote for the deletion of the post and every single mention of it on this forum. This person went out of his way to break a game feature that took a long time to be coded into TFC. This is unfair to the Dev's and most important to all players that took the time to learn how to use the anvil. 

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After reading the arguments in this forum one would think TFC smithing is really complicated.....I'm not sure why, most people can probably learn it from a youtube video (maybe people with some learning disabilities couldn't learn it for example)

 

And looking at the ap, I question how someone who didn't learn at least the basics could even use it properly. The only thing its seems to do is give people the awnser, which saves coal and hammer durability

 

It doesn't give players metals, it doesn't give them anvils, it doesn't give them blast furnaces. It gives players nothing required to start blacksmithing. The players have to get those themselves (unless they steal, which is a different issue) 

Are you really going to argue the time saved from using the ap is going to be a more significant factor than the amount of metal available to the blacksmith???? Somehow I'm doubting the ap will give players the ability to rise the blacksmith ladder faster without playing significantly longer or probably the real key to being a successful SMP blacksmith: making more friends on the server (more friends-->more trades--> more metal-->more blacksmithing-->more trades.....)

 

You can see through the smithing minigame with a peice of paper, a pencil, and the TFC wiki. The amount of time required to learn it is being way over exaggerated in this thread, as is the amount of panic

 

Now a blacksmith that uses the ap and x-ray (or with metal suppliers that use x-ray) has a significant advantage (as x-ray gives metal at a much faster rate than someone playing legitly), but thats a different story

 

Either way this thread seems to be going into the territory of "people are cheating, we have to stop it". And thats madness territory I don't want to go considering people can use even something as simple as resource packs to cheat. You can try to be enforcers of legitness if you want....good luck at that

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It isn't a matter of being enforcers. People will do what they want. It is a matter of being promoters of addons and tools that circumvent parts of the game which negatively impacts other players.

Apps like these negate the role as a skilled position in a community. Sure the concept isn't extremely complicated, but the first few times you make something how many times do you get within one pixel? How many times do you need to reheat? Anyone could do it they just have to type in the what they want to make, the exact moves are given. Beyond maxing the bonus there is no need for any player to be skilled at metal working. I don't think it is something that can be stopped, but it is certainly something the devs can choose to not support.

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I am sorry, I just can not help myself.

 

Take a look at it this way. You have two players:

  • Player 1 - The resident blackmsmith. He has taken the time and effort to figure out the smithing system in a way other than just using the numbers. He has a sense of accomplishment in doing so, and therefore is often willing to smith tools and armor for his fellow players either for free or for a fair trade. He has decided that this is his specialty on the server, and generally speaking when he is logged in the majority of his time is spent smithing, because he enjoys it and enjoys the sense of accomplishment. This player possibly does not enjoy many of the other mechanics of TFC, and if he wasn't the resident smith for his fellow players, would likely stop playing. His smithing skill levels are likely higher than all the other players on the server, but possibly not completely maxed out because he still has to put effort into smithing all the different things.
  • Player 2 - The app user. This player possibly is brand new to TFC and the server that he has joined. Rather than trade with the resident blacksmith, this player has decided that he's just going to make all of his stuff himself, because it's such an extremely easy task to do with the help of this spoiler app. They decide that the increased durability for the higher skill level of Player 1 isn't worth the effort of travelling on the server and trading goods. He'd rather just make his stuff at home since he can do so quickly and easily, which also means that with the help of the app he can very quickly level up his smithing skill to be on the same level if not higher as Player 1, with little to no thought on his part since the app is doing all the logic for him.  This player then goes and tells his friends about this app, and they start using it too instead of trading goods with the resident blacksmith, or perhaps now go to Player 2 for their tools since he is faster, and his prices are cheaper due to the fact that he doesn't have to do nearly as much thinking when smithing as Player 1.

In essence, the app has completely replaced the functionality of player 1. All of his hard work is for nothing and unless he also starts using the app, his role on the server is gone. For many players, having their key role taken away from then will likely mean that they just quit the server, and have a very bitter feeling towards the mod as a whole.

 

Edit: By allowing these types of addons to be posted on this forum, even just in a subforum, it implies that the developers of this mod are ok with the players using it, or even that we encourage players to use it. This is the mod's official forum, whether we like it or not, that means that everything on it has a sense of being "official" and endorsed by the developers. Because of this, players who feel wronged due to an addon that is publicly distributed on this official forum will likely get mad at us, the official TFC staff, for allowing it to be posted in the first place, and less so at the actual author of the addon, or the other players who decided to start using it.

 

And this is entire the problem, your example is faulty.

 

P1 will be angry anyway, no matter if P2 will use a legitimate way of smithing or is cutting corners.

There is no way for anyone to tell if P2 is using an app/website/pen & paper or just trial and error.

 

This app will not help you level up, you still have to put in the effort of making a whole lot of tools for that.

99% of the people using this app are not willing to put in the effort to learn how to smith the hard way, what gives you the idea they will put in the effort to make all those tools needed to get to the master level?

 

And also, dont sell your players short, there is such a thing as loyalty, just because there is a slightly cheaper smith out there doesnt mean all of a sudden people are going to change there minds about which smith to use.

Another point, a lot of players are lazy (not meant in a bad way), when they find something that works they tend to stick with it, so if they have a smith that they work well with it is actually easier to keep using that person.

 

I think we all agree that this can not be stopped, and a website like the one mentioned above cant even be monitored or bocked by an app black/white list.

 

By banning these things from the forum you are sticking your head in the sand, because people who are inclined to utilze advantages will do so anyway, a simple Google search will reveal the app or website. You are actually depriving players, moderators and admins from the information.

Have you considered that it might actually be benificial for server admins to know what is out there, where it can be found, how it works and the abbility to talk about this?

 

As with so many things, people who want to do bad will always do bad, they can not be stopped, but by blocking the information actually deprives people of the information they need to understand and possibly fight these apps or websites.

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There's a huge difference here though. While the ability to teleport can be considered an unfair advantage, it's not an advantage that actively hurts other players that decide not to use it. Players who like to explore but don't want to use the teleportation system can still go exploring. Just because their friend teleports home doesn't mean that player can't get home too. Spoiler apps like for smithing actually replace the skill of the blacksmith players on a server. The blacksmiths who decide not to use it are directly affected by the fact that there are players on a server who do use it, due to the nature of competition and having roles on a server. These blacksmiths who are now at a severe disadvantage because players have gone to other routes for their tools will likely be mad. But who can they be mad at? They can't be mad at their server admins because there's nothing a server admin can do to stop players from using these cheaty apps other than ban any players caught using them. From what I've seen posted in this thread, most server admins wouldn't even ban players for using it, because they want to let all their players play however they want. They can't get mad at the addon developer for making the addon, and ask them to take it down, because the addon developer isn't going to take something down after putting so much effort into creating it. So who does that leave? The TFC Staff. They get mad at us because it is entirely within our power to remove the addon from the forum, as already shown by us removing discussion spoilers from the rest of our forum.

There is very little difference if you ask me. Teleportation allows players to trade effortlessly. This means that they no longer have to invest a lot of time into hunting/gathering/farming. They can make a big discovery and then trade that for whatever they need. In that sense the effort required to progress is very much like an app that tells you which buttons to press to get X result.What I sense here in this thread is exactly the same sentiment we encountered during the teleport vs non-teleport discussions. One group thinks it's cheaty and it should be banned, another group thinks it's more fun to play that way. I'm not going to tell people which way is best because honestly I don't think it matters. If someone has more fun playing with an app than playing without, that person should use the app. On the other hand if a player wants to go 'hardcore tfc' then that is the way to go for that player.Most people are sensible enough to decide for themselves what they like to do. They don't need server owners, and maybe even mod devs, to tell them how to play the game to have the most fun.
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I'm not sure why people are construing this as telling people how to play. TFC is open source. A person can make whatever tool or Addon based in the code that they wish. A person can go look at the code and get the numbers if they wish. It isn't about what people can or can not do in game, it is about what is promoted on the official TFC forum.

I see it as akin to posting exploits someone has found in TFC, not to have them fixed, but as a work around, dupe etc. I can't imagine anyone having an issue of the Devs shutting that down, obviously they would fix, but what if it was something unfixable. Everyone could choose to use the exploit if they wanted, it would be telling players how to play the game to block such info from the forum.

The devs are not talking about blocking people from making or using such tools. They are simply trying to decide if allowing such tools to be promoted and distributed via the official TFC forum is wise. Could that be construed as supporting such tools?

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We already do that. The problem is that these addons and applications take that into consideration, and just ask for the user to input their world seed, which is easily obtainable in single player by just using the /seed command, and is public knowledge on a fair amount of servers.

 

That's a slightly different issue from the one I was addressing. If a player *wants* to know all the numbers in advance and spoil the magic for themselves, I see no reason to stop them or even try to slow them down.

 

I can see this being a problem in multiplayer since those who haven't looked up the numbers may be at a disadvantage against those who have, but the only way to stop that is to make sure that the client never sees those numbers, which would mean moving all decision-making which is based on those numbers to the server. That seems like far more effort than it's worth, so I would just go with labelling spoiler mods so that those who don't want the magic spoiled for them won't do so accidentally.

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I'm not sure why people are construing this as telling people how to play TFC.

 

Could that perhaps have anything to do with an argument that keep popping up about how one group of people will not enjoy playing the game anymore if another group of people uses certain advantages?

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I think we all agree that this can not be stopped, and a website like the one mentioned above cant even be monitored or bocked by an app black/white list.

 

By banning these things from the forum you are sticking your head in the sand, because people who are inclined to utilze advantages will do so anyway, a simple Google search will reveal the app or website. You are actually depriving players, moderators and admins from the information.

Have you considered that it might actually be benificial for server admins to know what is out there, where it can be found, how it works and the abbility to talk about this?

 

As with so many things, people who want to do bad will always do bad, they can not be stopped, but by blocking the information actually deprives people of the information they need to understand and possibly fight these apps or websites.

 

We're not sticking our head in the sand. We're saying "The official staff of this mod do not support use of this app." We're not trying to ban these sorts of things from being used completely. We're just considering banning them from being posted on this forum, because anything posted on this forum is by implication "Endorsed" or even possibly "Encouraged" by the TFC Staff. In essence, allowing these sorts of things to be posted is us saying "Here's this fun mechanic that we spent a lot of time developing that we hope you will enjoy. And here's this app you can use to circumvent the mechanic entirely and make all the effort we made in developing said mechanic for naught."

 

The problem you seem to be missing here is that there is no helpful information that we are depriving anybody of. Allowing these sorts of addons on this forum do nothing more than inform moderators and admins that "This exists. Your players get to use this to cheat the system. There's nothing you can do about it."

 

There is no information here that could be used by anybody to stop players from using it.

 

I would also like to point out that while this discussion is happening, the addon that sparked the entire discussion is still sitting on the front page of the Addons forum. It has not been taken down, it has not been placed behind any spoiler tags. The point of this topic was to give server admins the ability to talk about this. If it wasn't for this topic, where exactly did you expect server admins to have this discussion?

 

 

There is very little difference if you ask me. Teleportation allows players to trade effortlessly. This means that they no longer have to invest a lot of time into hunting/gathering/farming. They can make a big discovery and then trade that for whatever they need. In that sense the effort required to progress is very much like an app that tells you which buttons to press to get X result.

What I sense here in this thread is exactly the same sentiment we encountered during the teleport vs non-teleport discussions. One group thinks it's cheaty and it should be banned, another group thinks it's more fun to play that way. I'm not going to tell people which way is best because honestly I don't think it matters. If someone has more fun playing with an app than playing without, that person should use the app. On the other hand if a player wants to go 'hardcore tfc' then that is the way to go for that player.

Most people are sensible enough to decide for themselves what they like to do. They don't need server owners, and maybe even mod devs, to tell them how to play the game to have the most fun.

 

In essence you've created an environment on your server in where the "exploit" of teleportation is banned though. Your players join the hardcore server with the understanding that not only are they not allowed to teleport, but neither is anybody else who is playing on that server. You've levelled the playing field.

 

I'm trying to make this as obvious as possible. These sort of apps cannot be blocked by server admins. There is nothing that you as an admin can do to stop your players from using it, and there is nothing that you as a server admin can do to create an environment where players will know that not only are they not using an exploit, nobody else is using the exploit either.

 

This is entirely a matter of where do we draw the line? I'm going to try and provide some other hypothetical examples. In all of these examples, I want you to assume that there is no way to stop players from using the addon/app.

  • An app is created that allows players to teleport around on the server. Some players on your hardcore server decide to use this app to circumvent the "No Teleportation" rule. There's nothing you can do to prevent players from using this app. You can only be reactionary, and possibly ban users who are caught using it.
  • An X-ray addon is created that allows players to see through the world and therefore quickly and almost effortlessly find ore in comparison to standard methods. You have players on your server who are using this addon to exploit the economy. There's nothing you can do to prevent players from using this addon. You can be reactionary, and possibly ban users who are caught using it.
  • An app is created that allows players to press a button in their inventory that gives them a full set of red steel tools and armor. There's nothing you can do to prevent players from using this app. You can be reactionary, and possibly ban users who are caught using it.
  • An addon is created that exploits a mechanic of the combat system. Any player who has this addon installed is essentially immortal. This player then joins a PvP server. There's nothing the server admin can do to stop the player from using the app. They can only be reactionary, and possibly ban the user who is caught using it.

 

The argument of "Well why don't you just change TFC so that these sort of addons/app don't work?" is not a valid one, because some of these sorts of exploits cannot be "fixed" without major rewrites of the code. Rewrites that would possibly mean that any and all players would have to create new worlds if they wished to update. While the exploit would eventually be fixed, there would still be a relatively long period of time before that happens, because rewrites take a lot more time and effort. What happens when the rewrite takes months to complete? During those months, does everyone just have to accept the fact that some of the people they play with are heavily exploiting the game, therefore negatively affecting their own experience, and that nothing can currently be done about it?

 

Yes exploiters are always going to exploit. Yes trying to completely shut down this sort of behavior is completely futile. However, we do have the ability to discourage this behavior. We also have the ability to not take the blame for said behavior because it wasn't distributed on our forums.

 

Edit: How about you go set up a periodic announcement in your server chat that links to the smithing calculator? Also make sure to include in the announcement that everybody can use it, and that there's nothing that can be done to stop anybody from using it. Your players who decide that it is cheating will have no choice but to accept that they are playing on a server with players who are doing what they consider cheating. At that point you are now endorsing the app at a similar level that we are by allowing it to be posted on this forum.

Edited by Kittychanley
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Kitty, touch the point, TFC forum dont do or dont break the creation of any type of "mods".IMO, the point here is to promote "this" or dont promote, thing maybe considered "exploit" to the game.

 

InsaneJ: you talk about this but in your server you created restriction around mod usage. i think have mods you dont like to use.

 

Example: is fair promoting the advantage about debug mode use to TFC? (in one pined post, here)

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Actually our server consists of two parts. One part where teleportation is possible, and one where it's not. It's up to the players which area they choose to play in. So in fact we are not restricting our players when it comes to teleporting. We are only grouping players together who share the same point of view on the matter. In the future we intent to blur the line between these two areas by allowing players to move back and forth between these servers at will.

Kitty, from your examples it's clear you view certain knowledge of game mechanics as cheating. You are of course welcome to that opinion. I don't share it and I think your examples are a gross exaggeration to the issue that's being discussed. We're talking about a wiki-like app that explains how certain aspects of the game work. It's not giving people in-game creative mode or X-ray vision, please don't be ridiculous. Players will still need to put in a lot of work to get certain results. Even with the knowledge it's not instant gratification.

CalangoMC, we block the use of certain mods to ensure server stability. In the past people joined with all kinds of mods that were not installed on the server and it caused problems. It has nothing to do with mods we do or do not like. If you wish to add a client-side mod to the mod whitelist, you can submit them in our server thread. If the mods check out they will be added. Server side mods will not be added since we want to make it as easy as possible for people to join our server. All they need is the latest version of TFC which they can find on this website along with instructions on how to install and use it.

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Kitty, from your examples it's clear you view certain knowledge of game mechanics as cheating. You are of course welcome to that opinion. I don't share it and I think your examples are a gross exaggeration to the issue that's being discussed. We're talking about a wiki-like app that explains how certain aspects of the game work. It's not giving people in-game creative mode or X-ray vision, please don't be ridiculous. Players will still need to put in a lot of work to get certain results. Even with the knowledge it's not instant gratification.

 

 

Kitty's examples might be exaggerated, but they do reflect the reality of the problem caused by the app that give you the exact strike order to get a tool. However, I think that you minimize the issue. This is not a "wiki-like app that explain how an aspect of the game work", it directly give you a "cheat sheet" of what strikes to do to get the tool easily, it does not explain anything.

 

I might have an example that would be more realistic. Let's say that there is an app that allow you to have more info with the propick, like in what direction to dig an how far, without false negative. People who use it would quickly find the ore veins ans have a clear advantage over people who know the mechanics of the pro pick (knowledge that they got by trial, or reading a guide or the wiki) and who have to use the pro pick several times to find their veins.

If you use it, you do not have to understand the mechanic of the game, nothing have to be explained to you, or experimented, you only follow the information that indicate how to get what you are looking for as fast as possible and as effortlessly as possible.

 

The app that exist right now is exactly the same. You do not have to understand, you do not have to have any "knowledge", you only have a solution to a problem.

I do agree that we could have more in dept guides to help people with the anvil, explaining how the hit work, even without giving exact numbers, then the people would have to have knowledge to use the anvil perfectly, as we do with the pro pick.

 

If you want to make tools efforlessly, I see other solutions that I would not consider "exploits" or "cheat", from the hardest to realize to the easiest.

1. Create a mod to cast any tool metal.

2. Create a minetweaker script to make tools without having to smith them (like tool mold + ingot + stick = tool or tool + mold)

3. Don't play TFC, tools are easy to make in Vanilla or in other mods

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Kitty, from your examples it's clear you view certain knowledge of game mechanics as cheating. You are of course welcome to that opinion. I don't share it and I think your examples are a gross exaggeration to the issue that's being discussed. We're talking about a wiki-like app that explains how certain aspects of the game work. It's not giving people in-game creative mode or X-ray vision, please don't be ridiculous. Players will still need to put in a lot of work to get certain results. Even with the knowledge it's not instant gratification.

 

You're missing the entire point of this topic. While it was sparked by an anvil smithing thread, the result of this topic will affect all addons and applications that may be considered "cheating." I'm attempting to create a precedent here, and trying to get across the point that a line must be drawn. What happens when someone does create an app or addon that gives players creative mode, or X-ray vision? Should we ban that mod? Under what circumstances is the line considered "crossed" and the addon/app in question should be removed?

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I think it should be a good idea to have the special, spoiler, red marked section in the forum where any addon, app, or tread suspected of cheating should be moved. In the end if the Devs decide is to bad to stay in the forum it can be removed, or moved back.

I Mean as a temporary thing, untill a final decision can be reached about the matter. It just bothers me that while we are having this discussion, what I believe is healthy, the tread in question is still mixed with other addons.

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The OP has been updated with a new poll link due to the fact that users cannot edit their votes, and there has been some confusion on what the poll was actually asking. Please re-cast your votes now that this discussion has clarified both sides of the argument.

 

If on Saturday afternoon the consensus is still that the spoiler subforum should be created, and Bioxx has not decided to override this decision, then the subforum will be made.

 

Here's a copy of the new poll link:

http://strawpoll.me/4085968

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I voted for such treads to be deleted, although I still think the subforum should be created and so upon a report any  tread could be moved until the forum admins have a chance to fully study the case. This way there is no need to rush to conclusions. So if anyone on the server sees a post that they think is a cheat they can report it and a moderator would immediately move it to the subforum, where it would remain until a final decision was made. I am in no way suggesting that every time we have a case like that we should have all this discussion. I have my website and forum for my server and if I don't like a post or tread I will delete it. I believe Kitty and all admins have the right and should use this right to make the decision.

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