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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Miner239

Clothing

64 posts in this topic

TFC2! Horray! Fresh ideas to suggest!

 

I think armor and clothes should be in TFC2 because no major update will be for TFC.

 

I suggest another tab for wearable instead of the current tab, which now should just include inventory and crafting. The wearable would be split into 4 parts, they are: Armor, Over, Middle, Under. Not that they should necessarily include that labels. Armor would be worn on Armor, and should have at least one clothing under, while steel and above require 2 layer under. Wearing armor should wear out the layers under over time. Wearing more layer of clothing adds more heat loss resistance, while wearing metal armor multiplies external temperature change by many times. Clothing would also protect from damage.

 

Enough with mechanics, let's move on to items.

 

Clothes would be made from 5 sources: leather, silk, linen, wool, bark. They would have different properties. Leather protects most from damage, most durable, but wears most over time. Wool protects most from cold, while silk protects most from heat. Bark is (not?)the worst of all, but better than nothing.

 

You would get bark from rightclicking unharvested log with a knife. The weight of the bark depends on the knife quality. Wait, weight? Yes, weight! You could combine it and separate it with a knife, just like food. You would then sew it up with some straw/reed fibers on the basic crafting bench, formerly known as the meal preparation bench. Bark clothes give an early protection against the elements and random accidents.

 

Silk cocoons would be gathered from silkworm-infested leaves randomly found on temperate(/particular) trees. You can instead gather the worms with a stick, but it would take a long time to gather some from the leaves. You could mix spider strings with silk cocoons. Then you would cook them in a cauldron and stick them to a spindle/loom. Each cocoon is worth 4-6 string. Next you craft it like usual, but with added string for sewing them up(or make them weighted just like bark, and craft them just like bark). Silk is the best option for the desert dwellers for its lack of heat holding capability.

 

Linen is woven from flax fibers. Flax would be gathered from flax crop, and would be weighted. You would then process it like jute to get flax fibers, also weighted. Sew them up with string on the basic crafting bench.

 

Wool is made just like usual, but with added string for sewing them up(or make them weighted just like bark, and craft them just like bark).

 

Leather is made just like usual, but with added leather strips for sewing them up(or make them weighted just like bark, and craft them just like bark).

 

Inspiration taken from Unreal World.

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Bark clothing? I don't think it would be a great idea to make clothing that cheap.

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It would be an early clothes, yes, but it's not really that protecting, is it? The only bark I can safely harvest without a tool is from cajeput tree, and I know it's waterproof. But it easily tears, so make that a low(like, a fortnight's worth of) durability.

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It would be an early clothes, yes, but it's not really that protecting, is it? The only bark I can safely harvest without a tool is from cajeput tree, and I know it's waterproof. But it easily tears, so make that a low(like, a fortnight's worth of) durability.

If it's so weak, why even bother adding it in? What would be the point. I don't see any benefit.
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As I said, it is for early protection against rain. Hold to it while you weave silk, or anything else better. If you wear nothing, then you don't have any protection at all, and rain will sap your body heat fast. Do you really want to wear leaves? Bark clothing is better than leaves IMO.

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I think it works nice with the concept that you are naked stranded in a strange  world, you need to find something fast to protect your body from the elements. Although I think the first garments were made from animal hides. then it comes plant fibers specially Hemp, that we definitely need to be add to the game. 

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Although I think the first garments were made from animal hides.

Rant earlyClothesRant = new Rant(boolean annoying = true);

 

The first clothes were typically made from what was to hand, and varied depending on the season. For example, in the summer if one lived in a forest, it would be easier to collect bark from trees such as Willow; compared to tracking, killing and butchering an animal. These clothes would be easily replaceable, so it wouldn't matter as much if they got ripped. However, when the weather got colder, thicker clothes such as hides would be used, and later stored over the summer months (as not to have them damaged).

 

EarlyClothesRant = null; // End rant

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We do have jute, I'm not sure all this talk of hemp and flax is necessary when we already have a fiber crop, which, once you've made your first few leads and your farming skill gets better, becomes a bit redundant.  My understanding is we can currently make burlap from it, which currently has no use.  Seems like a good hemp/flax analog. In current system though, not really realistic to have enough jute before first winter to make clothes I think.

 

The thing about this clothes discussion is, there's not really a point to clothes unless/until a body heat mechanic of some sort is added. If/when that happens, clothes will become relevant. 

If it does happen, there will need to be a decision about how it fits into game progression.  There either needs to be enough ways to make clothes to survive the first winter, or if the options are limited it has to be assumed that the player will have to migrate far enough south to survive the first winter if they can't find any of those limited options. Bark clothing won't do anything against winter, hide is the best option, really, for first winter. It'll make the early game a race to get to the leather-working stage, and get enough leather to make clothes.  Which would be good for increasing leather usefulness, as right now the need for it is pretty minimal.  Although really leather by itself is not warm either, if it has no fur.  The current leather-making mechanic kind of gives the impression that the leather has been scraped on both sides I think. 

 

Perhaps all animals get their own raw hides like a sheep, with fur still on, and the player can either scrape the fur off for smooth leather to make bellows and armor and quivers, or tan them with fur on, for warm clothes.  There could be tiers of warmth; bear>sheep>wolf>deer>horse>pig.  Pig hide maybe wouldn't have any fur at all.  Unless pigs get changed to be wild boar.  As long as it's a reasonable surety that the player will be able to get flux before fist winter to make limewater, they will probably be able to get enough furs to survive it.  Then later the player can make wool clothing.  Which would not be as warm as bear, but warmer than all the others.  If the early game plays out at all like current TFC, I think it would be reasonable to expect the player to be able to gather enough hides to survive the winter and travel.  They might have to do less building the first year than they'd like, but all they'll need is enough metal for a saw, a source of flux, and animals.

 

If non-leather options are desired, it might be necessary to allow the player to line their bark books with straw.  You can actually make some straw clothes - hats, capes, winter boots - entirely from straw.  Honestly I'd say straw is a better option than bark, since it already exists in game.  Straw boots were done as recently as WWII for sentries.  Might reduce mobility, and I'm not sure how you craft them in a 2x2 grid though.  In the current system I think you'd need to use the 3x3 grid to be able to have the recipe shape versatility to make clothes, so unless something about the early grid and the way it is gained changes, it can be assumed the player will have a saw and all related items when they are making clothes.

 

If it is *not* desired to force the player into having a saw before first winter in order to make clothes, then something about the grid might have to change, or the new clothes materials will have to have a custom GUI, or it just has to be assumed they'll have to move south to survive the first winter sometimes.

Edited by Darmo
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But I assume the whole point of this discussion was because body temperature and clothing needs to be included in the game at the same time. It has to be. hence we talking about clothes.

One of the things that always bother me on the leather thing, is how it was made in a way to be only obtainable after metal. With this mentality mankind would have never survived. 

We will need to be able to fashion quick clothing to protect against the cold and also the heat of the sun. they need to be in such a way that someone in stone age is able to do it.

Of course as we progress we will have better clothing that will last longer and give more protection.

Not sure how believable it is, ( don't feel like researching in google for it right now )  but maybe an idea would have cat tails drop plant fibers that could be used for cheep clothing. If we do it, would it be possible to also require plant fiber in the recipe for stone tools? Is a minor thing, but it adds up.

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Woop, missed the part of the op where temperature was mentioned when skimming over it in the re-read.  My bad - it was in discussion from start.

 

The limiting factor in the current system, is the crafting grid, I think.  I'm pretty sure you can actually successfully tan hides in a large clay vessel.  So if there were a way to use tanned furs as clothing without using a 3x3 crafting grid, that would allow stone-age winter survival. So maybe the tanned fur itself can be worn in a clothing slot, but wears out over time due to not being properly fitted?  If tanned furs did not convert to leather, but just remained a tanned small/med/large hide, you could require a large hide for a cape, medium for torso and legs, and small for head and feet. Then it would require no crafting, just the tanning. Possibly allow a large fur to be 'crafted' with a knife to get 1 medium and 1 small fur, and medium fur to be reduced to two small furs.

 

It would definitely be interesting to see someone with stone age tech trying to kill a bear for the coveted super-warm bear hide.

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The limiting factor in the current system, is the crafting grid, I think.  

One more reason to allow the 3 x 3 grid in stone age , and if you still want to limit other items you can use metal as the deterrent itself, as per my suggestions, require a metal band for barrels, metal hinges for doors and even nail for placing planks. This way even though the player can make planks he cannot place then without metal for nails.

This would free up the crafting grid very early in the game, allowing more flexibility.

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Would be cool to have clothing, but you still can't really have that for a while (casting age because of the loom requirement), when you really need clothes is early on in the stone age, especially if you're starting off in a cold or hot area. Clothes- and especially leather- are far away, but you need to defend from zombies bears and other wildlife immediately, so I'd say simple hide and/or straw clothing should definitely be the very bottom tier and easily accessible, as others have stated. It could also be feasible to make use of the hundreds of feathers one can collect from wild birds to insulate clothing as down. Down and hide/fur? Awesome winter clothes right there.

 

Besides temperature management and defense, I look at wearable items as needing to have an effect on overall mobility. Wearing hide/straw should slow the player just a bit, like 5% or something, as hide is not too flexible, but still better than real metal armor, and straw is pretty uncomfortable (try the bed!) to move around while wearing.

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One of the things that always bother me on the leather thing, is how it was made in a way to be only obtainable after metal. With this mentality mankind would have never survived. 

 

This isn't true. You don't need a single metal tool to make leather in TFC1. You can do everything in large vessels.

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This isn't true. You don't need a single metal tool to make leather in TFC1. You can do everything in large vessels.

We can?! I had NO idea about that.

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That's true kitty. Sorry, I totally forgot about the Large vessel, my bad. I apologize.

One of the problems that still is the necessity for flux, so if you spawn in a non flux stone layer you will not be able to work leather.

Maybe the solution would be to introduce Hide work.

Historically hides were scraped and treated with the brains of the animal, being stretched all the time with a dull knife to gain elasticity. The result was a material that was flexible enough to be worn and also water proof. It would not last as long as tanned leather though.

For a new player it would be just a question of finding an animal killing it and maybe use some sticks to stretch the hide and work on it I can even visualize the animation.

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With 4 out of 21 rock types being flux, you've got like a 20% chance of getting it any time you change top rock layer (assuming all have equal chance to occur as top layer, which I don't know for sure).  Toss in a chance at Borax in rock salt and it's higher yet. How common is it right now to have flux problems?  I wonder how many different top rock layers one can expect in the new TFC2 'islands', which are apparently around 4k square in area. I guess everyone has different tolerances for how long they want to roam before they settle down, but if the oceans between the islands are quite large, and the rock changes on any given island low-ish, I could definitely see it being somewhat problematic. 

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About the crafting interface... I thought about making materials weighted just like food, and reusing the meal preparation interface for basic crafting. You already have a knife there, why not craft your clothing there? Also throw in some strings, leather strips or plant fiber rope if you feel like a maso. Then you put the appropriate material on the slots and click the button. Wait a few while, maybe, and your clothing is ready.

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 I wonder how many different top rock layers one can expect in the new TFC2 'islands', which are apparently around 4k square in area. 

The current intent is to make sure that, at least for the first few islands, there will be some required resources present so that no bottlenecks occur. As for the rock layers, each island is its own single rock layer at this time. Fear not, there are plans for deeper rock layers on each island, but nothing that I want to reveal quite yet..

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Why not have clothing made from  medium hide using a knife to shape it like you would with leather.

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What about having cat tails drop plant fiber? It was used for centuries like that. It could be a very cheap and fast way to make some clothing for the first days. 

Also the fiber could be introduced for other uses, like for example putting together the stone tools with their handles.

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Bark is weak, the cambium layer is stonk.

 

As for cattails. the Fuzz from the seeds is great insulation material I actually still use it while sewing some types of blankets. but I've yet to ever figure out how the fibers from the stalks where extracted in a non modern way

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I'm talking about the cork layer.

 

I think we can extract fibers from cat tails by hand with the help of a knife.

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i thought you could extract the fibres by picking it, bashing it then soaking in (running)  water...

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i thought you could extract the fibres by picking it, bashing it then soaking in (running)  water...

Never heard of this method. There is a method of using spanishmoss and retting it for horse blankets. assuming you're talking about retting it, it doesn't work, seems to destroy the fibers I've tried. but spanishmoss would be easy to add to the game and add another fabric type.. but to ret spanish moss packed black trash bag it takes a year to do.. 

 

I'm talking about the cork layer.

 

I think we can extract fibers from cat tails by hand with the help of a knife.

if you can find some more information like a web link or something let me know, I'm interested.  

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if you can find some more information like a web link or something let me know, I'm interested.

  

Cork is an external, secondary tissue that is impermeable to water and gases, and is also called the phellem.

I have just learned about tissues in plants(highschool stuff), and bark really is water resistant.

 

Unless you're talking about fiber extracting, which my biology teacher just did using a razor and her hand.

Edited by Miner239
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