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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Miner239

Magic!

86 posts in this topic

Since Bioxx said that fantasy will be more emphasized in TFC2, then let's start a thread about magic.

 

I will update OP when the topic is discussed more and points are made.

 

And here's my suggestion. I'll add yours, no worry.

 

1. Gemcraft-themed by Miner_239

Gemcraft! For those who don't know it yet, play it here.

 

As it says on the tin, it revolves around gems. Before that, I'll mention some concepts first for those who don't bother playing the game:

 

1. Mana is, well, the magical power stored within.

2. Gems are the tip of the suggestion. Natural gems must be mined before you can conjure the magical equivalent. (not ingame)

3. Mana bricks are conjured building blocks. 

 

Now, let's start. I'll use arbitrary numbers.

 

You will start with 120 mana pool. To start generating mana, you need to be lucky enough to get a gem from mining. That gem will determine your first gem color. You will generate mana as soon as you destroy the block that drops the gem(say, 1/s). Your mana pool will increase along with experience level, highest gem staff level, and how many times have you reached your mana pool limit. Your mana regen will also increase with your mana pool, although the effect will lessen the stronger you are. You'll need a gem staff to start conjuring gems and bricks. To make it, craft the gem with an (in)active staff. You'll need better shaft to accommodate better gems. Now you can conjure gems and bricks. To conjure, select the mode and rightclick. These are the modes: gem, tower, trap, amplifier, wall, reclaim. You can reclaim mana from your buildings except wall for 30% of its mana cost. Walls can only be destroyed/chiseled by mundane means. Reclaim 70% mana from gems by aiming at a dropped gem and rightclicking it. A special color of gem can only be used to conjure walls and gems, but they can both be reclaimed for 100% mana.

 

Conjured gems can be fitted into towers, traps, amplifiers, support staves, and battlestaves. Towers will shoot bolts that also carries its gem's special ability. Traps will attack touching enemies and have amplified special power but have extremely low damage. Amplifiers can't attack but will boost the stats of nearby players, towers and traps. Support staves are used to boost buildings, allies and yourself. Battle staves are used in battle. To socket a gem into a building, rightclick it with the gem in hand. Craft staves from wood, stone, or metal and craft the staff with the gem on one end of the staff. The socketed end will determine whether it is a support staff or a battle staff.

 

v1.1 here.

There will be 32/16(you choose) grades of gems, each one doubling in power than the last. To upgrade a gem, however, you need the gemforge. Craft the gemforge using a gem and smooth stone, then activate it using a gemstaff. You can set gems/staff on the forge so you can conjure gems on the spot. Higher grade gem requires double the cost of the previous grade gem and some amount of mana to combine them. You can also instantly conjure higher grade gems with better staff. Limit on gem combining is 2 higher than your staff limit.

 

Limit on staff conjuring

Chipped (stone)gemstaff:<G5 gems/towers/traps

Flawed (gold/silver)gemstaff:<G8

(platinum)Gemstaff: <G11

Flawless (iron)gemstaff: <G14

Exquisite (steel)gemstaff: =<G16 

 

I'll make some examples:

Grade 1 Poison gem(conjured from an unupgraded emerald staff): 14-37 dmg, 28 dmg over 7 sec that ignores armor, 400 mana, 6 range, 1.2 bolt per sec(834 ms)

Grade 3 Poison gem: 39-127 dmg, 113 dmg over 8.5 sec, 3518 mana, 6.62 range, 1.32 bolt per sec(752 ms)

G10 Psn gem: 2935-14823 dmg, 14994 dmg over 29.5 sec, 795k mana, 9.31 range, 1.90 bolt per sec(525 ms)

G16 Psn gem: 155k-947k dmg, 988k dmg over 67 sec, 55218k mana, 12.47 range, 2.59 bolt per sec(386 ms)

 

Active staffs can shoot, too.

G1 Psn G1 SStaff: 1-4 dmg, 14 dmg over 5 sec, 6 mana, 16 range, 5 bolt per sec(200 ms)

G1 Psn G1 BStaff: 25-66 dmg, 126 dmg over 9 sec, 72 mana, 40 range, 1.7 sec delay(.58 Hz)

 

Towers and traps are upgradable.

G1 Tower: 2100 HP, 250 mana, max G2 gem

G3 Twr: 7141 HP, 754 mana, max G4 gem

G1 Trap: 9000 HP, 300 mana, max G3 gem, 8% dmg, 10% range, 150% special

G3 Trap: 12960 HP, 4954 mana, max G9 gem, 10% dmg, 15% range, 190% special

v1.15

Basing on TFC gems, I have associated the natural gems and the conjured counterpart like this:

Active staff material:

Craft a wooden active staff with a plank and a chisel. Craft a stone active staff with a smoothstone and a chisel. Work an ingot to make a staff.

Upgrade an gemstaff by infusing a special loot found rarely on mobs and commonly inside fortresses with the staff. The gemstaff could also be engraved with your highest exp level(not lost).

 

Killing mobs give mana. The amount is determined by how much damage you have dealt(limit: max health) and the difficulty of the mob. Damage using gems is doubled, counted separately, and has 3 times the limit. Damage using mana-leech gems/attacks are quadrupled, counted separately, and has 8 times the limit.

Gem         Offense         SupportEmerald     Poison          Heal AuraRuby        Fire            ??Amethyst    Armor-breaking  ShieldTopaz       Mana-leeching   ??Jasper      Regen-halting   RegenSapphire    Ice/Slowing     SpeedGarnet      Chain hit       RangeDiamond     Piercing        DamageOpal        Poolbound       ??Tourmaline  Critical hit    ??Agate       Bloodbound      ??Beryl       Knockback       Thornshield                            (attacker knocked back and damaged)New in v1.2 because there is no reason to not add more gems (4 slot empty on the metadata)Peridot     Cloud           Aura            (puffs damaging cloud on impact)                            (special-flavored damaging aura)Quartz      Sunshine        Beam            (stronger at day)                            (quicker shot, less stat)Onyx        Multishot       MultitargetingMoonstone   Nightmare       Armor            (stronger at night)Per Darmo's gemcutting suggestion:Malachite   Confusing       Blunt            (attacks each other)                            (converts to blunt damage)Obsidian    Shattering      Pierce            (terraria's crystal bullet-like)                            (converts to point damage)
Wood    G1-G3Stone   G1-G5Copper  G1-G7Silver  G1-G13Bronze  G2-G5Gold    G2-G16Iron    G3-G11Steel   G5-G13

v1.20

Elaboration on mana:

You start with 0/120 mana, 0/s base regen, 0/s bonus regen, 0% multiplier. Multiplier only affects base regen.

Each gem mined will add 1*quality/s to base regen. Traded gem don't give regen.

Each time you surpass your mana pool, your mana pool will be extended by 50+(1*timesSurpassed) percent and your multiplier will increase by 20%

Your highest experience level will add multiplier to your mana pool by 5%/level and your mana regen by 2%/level.

Your gemstaff level will increase multiplier by 30%/level.

So...

 

Start: 120 max, 0/s

Mined a gem: 120 max, 1/s

3 days later: 69042 max, 22/s

 

A...h. That went too fast. Let's use 0.05/gemQuality.sec

 

3 days later: 195.6/275.4, 0.08/s without any other source of mana.

4 days later, killed 5 basic zombies on last day: 497/649, 0.15/s

Conjured a gem, managed to kill one R5k zombie: 639/649, 0.15/s

 

That's better. Regional Difficulty rating system here.

Some calculation spreadsheet here.

 

2. Cave crystal and ley-lines (also dark magic) by Darmo

I think that something TFC is currently kind of missing, that MC has, is the need to 'go deeper', for resources.  I know Bioxx mentioned this in another thread, that he has some secret plans for that.  But, there could be a further compulsion to go deeper if, for instance, Crystal clusters grew deeper.  These wouldn't be random gems popping out of the rock, they'd be physically visible crystals, that only appear at certain depths - the deeper the bigger.  And perhaps only in certain rock types, and/or near hot springs and lava.  There could even be epic crystal caverns, like so.

 

Those are real-life crystals several meters in length!  I think having some of those in the larger TFC2 caverns would be pretty epic,    If magic were derived from these kinds of cave crystals, then you have a reason to go deeper.  The deeper you go, the bigger and more powerful the crystals.  Then, further imagine that the largest, most powerful crystals cannot be carried by the player - they do not fit on the back, and yet overburden the player.  The only way to get them to the surface (aside from tediously placing, moving to the other side, picking up, placing, etc) where they can be used somehow, is in a mine cart or on a donkey.  I'd kind of prefer mine carts, because then suddenly minecarts have a purpose beyond being rollercoasters.  It'd be interesting though, if some kind of hoist was added to the game.  Maybe a shaft could be sunk down into the crystal cave, so that the player doesn't have to lay an insane number of tracks.

The books, the player carries with them, and is what is used to activate the spell.  Maybe one use, maybe multiple.  Maybe the player crafts a specific book of a specific rune type, and it can be used as many times as that same type of rune is inscribed on a crystal.  Provided crystals are rare enough, they don't get used up.  But each spell use removes a rune, making subsequent spells from that crystal more powerful, since the crystals has fewer runes now.

 

Now at the same time as I think gems and crystals would be a good basis for the system, I think it would also be good if books were important somehow, since right now paper seems to lack importance.  Reeds are one of the few reasons to visit the tropics, but one trip and you've got about all you'll ever need.  Perhaps the wizard has to bring up crystals and set them up, so they'll be physically present.  They have to have access to the sun or moon - that's where they get their power, and why they don't work underground.  The wizard has to make a book for each spell, and the book is linked to the crystal by inscribing a rune on the side of the crystal.  In this way larger cystals can hold (power) more spells.  Basically each block of the crystal can power 4 spells, 1 on each side. But the crystal provides power based on size as well.  And the power is divided by the runes - so if you only use 1 rune on a 1 section crystal, that spell will be 4x more powerful vs having a rune on all four sides.  And if you get a 4 meter tall crystal, and only put 1 rune on the whole thing, well, that's a very powerful spell indeed!  Crystals cannot be combined.  They would have specific sizes and when placed would immediately be that size, similar to support posts.  Maybe allow 1-section crystals to be carried on the back, 2-section can be carried by donkey, but anything larger requires a mine cart and/or hoist.

 

In keeping with the highly geographical nature of the game, it would also be interesting if ley lines were a thing.  These would be invisible to the naked eye, required special equipment and/or magic to see them.  Placing a crystal (or several depending on how big ley lines are) one the intersection, powers them up even more.  If done right it could be a critical point in the wizard's career - he'll already have a decent base before he gets this magic, so does he just keep going where he is, or does he find an intersection and move there?  Hexagonal generation I would think would allow both 2-way and 3-way intersections.

 

There's also the good 'ole notion of dark magic, in the forms of 'soul gems'.  Trapping the souls of living creatures in gems or whatever, to power fell magics. It'd be kind of interesting if there were sort of several 'paths' of magic to go down, rather than one.

Edited by Miner239
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You should be able to create structures out of magical items (i.e. the gems you presented above) that provide quicker mana/health regeneration.

 

On a larger note, a lot of your ideas sound really really overpowered. Magic systems are often very overpowered for the interest of gameplay, but they become so easy that you forget to use any other aspect of the game. Make it difficult to use and to upgrade. Make the early game spells weak.

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My feeling on the magic subject is that it should be as complex as everything else is otherwise it would feel cheaty and lame. The Witchery mod has the right idea on a lot of things and as far as power or "mana" is concerned the arcane scrolls mod had that one down beautifully but it would be much better to rely on the ancient magical practices from the past IMHO.

Making large multi block structures like henges or altars, using specific dates or moon phases for specific rituals, relying on the "essences" of the natural world such as particular gems, herbs, fruits etc... All of these things would be quite fitting to the TFC theme.

I am not only an avid TFC player and programmer but I am also a practicing pagan and herbal medicinal practioner so I have quite a solid grasp on what this type of system could feel like. And yes, ritual tools like staves and specially consecrated blades do play a role as do talismans and amulets so those could be a functional part of the magical aspect of the mod.

Edited by Balthizarlucien
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Added Gemcraft-themed v1.1. Updated on how gemforging works. More to come.

 

I don't think my suggestion will be overpowered because mana growth is slower than the gem cost growth. But then, if you stay on the same place then of course the mobs will be outpowered.

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Added Gemcraft-themed v1.1. Updated on how gemforging works. More to come.

 

I don't think my suggestion will be overpowered because mana growth is slower than the gem cost growth. But then, if you stay on the same place then of course the mobs will be outpowered.

 

I think what Balthizarlucien is saying is that the other professions and skills take TONS of work whereas it seems you're suggesting that you find a gem and then you just get to have mana building up.  Fast or slow, you're not working for it.

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I think what Balthizarlucien is saying is that the other professions and skills take TONS of work whereas it seems you're suggesting that you find a gem and then you just get to have mana building up.  Fast or slow, you're not working for it.

And that is the part that I don't like about magic, is when you get something for nothing.

I would prefer something more in line with alchemy, if it has a system as complex as metallurgy, where you have to work and make potions in tiers of complexity and reward.

Another point could be a gem system that required something like gem cutting with a minigame like the anvil, something that required real life skill to learn and also with polishing the gem. I mean I would hate for a system where all you need is the luck to find the perfect stone and you are set to go.

Maybe we could have a mechanic where to cut the stones you need some specific tool made with gems, like in real life where they use diamonds to cut diamonds. So it could work similar as the anvil where you need better tools to work on the better gems. So a new players with rudimentary tools would be unable to work with diamonds, even if he finds then. 

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I think a magic system that involves gems/crystals might be good - it'd fit the basic theme of MC and TFC - mining and minerals.  I did start another thread to discuss improvement of the system of making gems.  A gem based system could work a lot of different ways, and could bring variety to play-throughs, for instance by tying the type of gem to the type of magic it could be used for.  Maybe rubies do fire magic.  You don't find rubies, you don't get fire magic.  If the gems have durability, the player would experience many varieties perhaps, and have to adapt their strategies to the gems available to them by random chance.

 

I think that something TFC is currently kind of missing, that MC has, is the need to 'go deeper', for resources.  I know Bioxx mentioned this in another thread, that he has some secret plans for that.  But, there could be a further compulsion to go deeper if, for instance, Crystal clusters grew deeper.  These wouldn't be random gems popping out of the rock, they'd be physically visible crystals, that only appear at certain depths - the deeper the bigger.  And perhaps only in certain rock types, and/or near hot springs and lava.  There could even be beautiful crystal caverns, like so.

 

Those are real-life crystals several meters in length!  I think having some of those in the larger TFC2 caverns would be pretty epic,    If magic were derived from these kinds of cave crystals, then you have a reason to go deeper.  The deeper you go, the bigger and more powerful the crystals.  Then, further imagine that the largest, most powerful crystals cannot be carried by the player - they do not fit on the back, and yet overburden the player.  The only way to get them to the surface (aside from tediously placing, moving to the other side, picking up, placing, etc) where they can be used somehow, is in a mine cart or on a donkey.  I'd kind of prefer mine carts, because then suddenly minecarts have a purpose beyond being rollercoasters.  It'd be interesting though, if some kind of hoist was added to the game.  Maybe a shaft could be sunk down into the crystal cave, so that the player doesn't have to lay an insane number of tracks.  edit: Depending on how the lift works, it could take 2 pieces of jute per meter if it's a counterweight system, or one piece of jute per meter if it's a cranked spool.  Either way, the amount of jute required would be a stumbling block to going super-deep.  Also the lift mechanism for crystals could be a burlap sling, requiring even more jute.

 

Now at the same time as I think gems and crystals would be a good basis for the system, I think it would also be good if books were important somehow, since right now paper seems to lack importance.  Reeds are one of the few reasons to visit the tropics, but one trip and you've got about all you'll ever need.  Perhaps the wizard has to bring up crystals and set them up, so they'll be physically present.  They have to have access to the sun or moon - that's where they get their power, and why they don't work underground.  The wizard has to make a book for each spell, and the book is linked to the crystal by inscribing a rune on the side of the crystal.  In this way larger cystals can hold (power) more spells.  Basically each block of the crystal can power 4 spells, 1 on each side. But the crystal provides power based on size as well.  And the power is divided by the runes - so if you only use 1 rune on a 1 section crystal, that spell will be 4x more powerful vs having a rune on all four sides.  And if you get a 4 meter tall crystal, and only put 1 rune on the whole thing, well, that's a very powerful spell indeed!  Crystals cannot be combined.  They would have specific sizes and when placed would immediately be that size, similar to support posts.  Maybe allow 1-section crystals to be carried on the back, 2-section can be carried by donkey, but anything larger requires a mine cart and/or hoist.

The books, the player carries with them, and is what is used to activate the spell.  Maybe one use, maybe multiple, but limited, to keep a continual need for paper.  Maybe the player crafts a specific book of a specific rune type, and it can be used as many times as that same type of rune is inscribed on a crystal in their base.  Provided crystals are rare enough, they don't get used up.  But each spell use removes a rune, making subsequent spells from that crystal more powerful, since the crystals has fewer runes now.  edit: Problem with that idea is that the book is on the player, and the crystal at home, so it probably gets unloaded at some point.  So how to link the two.  I suppose the data is stored on the player's book, and simply updates the crystals when their chunk reloads.

 

In keeping with the highly geographical nature of the game, it would also be interesting if ley lines were a thing.  These would be invisible to the naked eye, required special equipment and/or magic to see them.  Placing a crystal (or several depending on how big ley lines are) one the intersection, powers them up even more.  If done right it could be a critical point in the wizard's career - he'll already have a decent base before he gets th magic to detect ley lines, so once he finds an intersection, does he just keep going where he is, or does he move to the intersection?  Hexagonal generation I would think would allow both 2-way and 3-way intersections.

 

There's also the good 'ole notion of dark magic, in the forms of 'soul gems'.  Trapping the souls of living creatures in gems or whatever, to power fell magics. It'd be kind of interesting if there were sort of several 'paths' of magic to go down, rather than one.

Edited by Darmo
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Update v1.20 on Gemcraft. Added Darmo's magic system on crystals and ley lines with a hint of dark magic.

 

I think what Balthizarlucien is saying is that the other professions and skills take TONS of work whereas it seems you're suggesting that you find a gem and then you just get to have mana building up.  Fast or slow, you're not working for it.

And that is the part that I don't like about magic, is when you get something for nothing.

 

Answer:

I think a magic system that involves gems/crystals might be good - it'd fit the basic theme of MC and TFC - mining and minerals.  I did start another thread to discuss improvement of the system of making gems.  A gem based system could work a lot of different ways, and could bring variety to play-throughs, for instance by tying the type of gem to the type of magic it could be used for.  Maybe rubies do fire magic.  You don't find rubies, you don't get fire magic.  If the gems have durability, the player would experience many varieties perhaps, and have to adapt their strategies to the gems available to them by random chance.

Also added v1.15 awhile ago. Help me fill out the '??'!

 

Aren't gems found on shallower depth always have worst quality? The deeper you are, the better the chance to get a great gem. If you haven't found the gem yet, work harder. That's why I tied the max grades of conjured gem with the quality of the natural gem. It is tied with your progression on the tech tree & mine depth.

 

Darmo, great idea with the durability. I'll add it in v1.20 .

 

Another point could be a gem system that required something like gem cutting with a minigame like the anvil, something that required real life skill to learn and also with polishing the gem. I mean I would hate for a system where all you need is the luck to find the perfect stone and you are set to go.

Maybe we could have a mechanic where to cut the stones you need some specific tool made with gems, like in real life where they use diamonds to cut diamonds. So it could work similar as the anvil where you need better tools to work on the better gems. So a new players with rudimentary tools would be unable to work with diamonds, even if he finds then. 

Darmo has it here.

 

I think what Balthizarlucien is saying is that the other professions and skills take TONS of work whereas it seems you're suggesting that you find a gem and then you just get to have mana building up.  Fast or slow, you're not working for it.

The mana regen is slow, yes. But why? v1.15 update states that mobs gives mana. That's why. Gaining mana from regen alone will take days to get a gem.

Edited by Miner239
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Aren't gems found on shallower depth always have worst quality? The deeper you are, the better the chance to get a great gem. If you haven't found the gem yet, work harder. That's why I tied the max grades of conjured gem with the quality of the natural gem. It is tied with your progression on the tech tree & mine depth.

Not sure on quality vs depth.  I've never seen any statement to that effect myself.  I have always kind of wondered if the type of gem depends on the rock type you're mining.  Never paid enough attention, since gems don't matter currently.   If the player works the gems, then depth could be tied to carat size and number of flaws, rather than quality.

 

 

Also added v1.15 awhile ago. Help me fill out the '??'!

Well, within the scope of my crystal system, I'd suggest that gems and crystals be different categories, with their own metadata.  I'd suggest crystals include: tourmaline, beryl, selenite, quartz, and calcite at least.  Selenite and calcite form irl huge crystals.  Quartz makes big ones too, though not on the order of meters, I think.

 

In categorizing crystals, I looked for minerals that irl for long crystal structures visible to the naked eye, at least.  Malachite doesn't do that really. And obsidian irl is actually the opposite of a crystal.  I further tried to limit it by basic mineral - that is, quartz, amethyst, and citrine, for instance, those are all just quartz crystals.  Amethyst and citrine have impurities that give them color - so they might be better as gems, while the pure form - quartz - is a crystal.  So I was looking for fundamentally different crystals, vs different colors of the same mineral.  IRL, there are seven 'crystal systems'.  It's an interesting read.  Some of them - garnet, spinel, fluorite - form cubic crystals.  The hexagonal forms seem to be the ones that make long crystals.  But some of the TFC lower-tier crystals could be from the cubic family, but they only ever are 1 meter in size.

 

As for effects, you're pretty combat-heavy in your list.  I'd suggest thinking of things not necessarily combat related - water breathing, spider climbing, fire resistance, cold resistance, teleportation, block duplication, summoning, plant growth, ore detection, raw stone disintegration (for mining), holding (enchanted barrel holds twice as much water or items), putting animals to sleep for transport,  Shrinking animals for transport, etc etc.  The list of beneficial stuff is virtually endless.  It doesn't have to be all combat-centric.

Edited by Darmo
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Not sure on quality vs depth.  I've never seen any statement to that effect myself.  I have always kind of wondered if the type of gem depends on the rock type you're mining.  Never paid enough attention, since gems don't matter currently.   If the player works the gems, then depth could be tied to carat size and number of flaws, rather than quality.

 

I... don't really know, either. I thought about that since the time when I happiliy blow up the land with kegs on Creative. I kinda noticed that the deeper I go, the better the gems I got. Or, at least I didn't get a flawless gem on y140. But, hey, that's TFC1. It's going to be different.

 

As for effects, you're pretty combat-heavy in your list.  I'd suggest thinking of things not necessarily combat related - water breathing, spider climbing, fire resistance, cold resistance, teleportation, block duplication, summoning, plant growth, ore detection, raw stone disintegration (for mining), holding (enchanted barrel holds twice as much water or items), putting animals to sleep for transport,  Shrinking animals for transport, etc etc.  The list of beneficial stuff is virtually endless.  It doesn't have to be all combat-centric.

 

Hmm, I'll add another type of staff, then. Towers and traps are used only for defense, thus combat-centric. I'll add another column(Amplifier & Workstaff) with the v1.20 update, but right now I'm in school.

 

Malachite and obsidian are listed on the jewellery list on wikipedia as gems, so I consider cut malachite or obsidian as gem. I don't really care whether it has a crystalline formation or just stone.

 

EDIT: If you want, elaborate more on your own post/PM that I can simply co-pas to OP. Easier that way, wouldn't that be? ;)

Edited by Miner239
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You didn't answer the question of ease.  You keep saying that mana regen will be slow.  That has nothing to do with the objection.  In every other existing craft or project, in order to get anywhere, it takes work.  I have a blast furnace but I still have to locate, get to, gather, smelt, and forge more ore every time I want a new metal tool, weapon, or armor.  I don't have an iron ore generator somewhere which (fast or slow) accumulates ore for me to use.  Do you see?  Slow mana regen is still mana regen.

 

I'm not against magic in TFC, but I'd like to see someone come up with something completely unique.  Or at least partially unique.  What about a magic system which doesn't involve mana (or whatever you want to call magic energy) at all.  You don't have a mana bar.  You don't charge up.  You are simply aware of the forces of the cosmos and how they work.  You know that if you drop a rock it will fall to the ground via gravity and you also know that if you take a roc's feather, soak it in harpy blood, and let it set in the pure moonlight of the brightest night, it will strengthen any tool it is forged into.  Or you know that if you erect four stone basalt monuments the land between them will be more fertile... I don't know, something fresh.  Something that is more like discovering physical laws but instead cosmic laws.

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Forgot to add that regenerating mana takes nutrition. Be patient, will ya? It's not complete.

 

I still have another whole system of magic... that fits right with your idea, and Djakuta's idea, and my (other )idea. It's inspired by Eragon.

 

EDIT: Those who wonder, here is the old general idea. I have been thinking about it again since that.

 

Allen, I'd love to have that mod too! And... That's what attracts me to this mod. 1000 HP ZOMG

Anyway, nanobots. I've daydreamed a lot about it(and pretty much everything about everything, like mixing L4D2, GTA5, and UberStrike together), and.... I know, but it requires adamantine for its body. You must find some in the wild in colonies of them(size of colony between 200k~5M) or by killing Withers(drops 10~70k), and you need to bring either 100 units of adamantine, Nether Star, or 8000 lbs of salted meat to prove you're worthy enough for the bots to work for you. They will refuse to work inside your body(and your body will refuse them) for now, so they need to work inside blocks. Just pick them up using a jar and right click on a (nonbuilding)bloomery block to make it their homebase. The base block is now the interface between you and the bots. They need only minuscule amount of adamantine and pitchblende(1 unit/100M/day) to keep working and living, else their number will go down slowly due to lack of body maintenance or fuel. You can then make some workstations for them. They can extract metals straight from ores and create tools and armors using the correct amount of metal. They can make biogel from foods to heal you. (command them to)Make tanks to store powdered metals, liquids, or food. Spend XP on them to convert it to Research Points, which then ultimate change to Entitlement Points when they enter your body. The stats changed once they enter your body. There will be Health, Energy, Biomass, and Water. All 3 previous stats' max are decupled. Energy is what you use to manipulate the world. You can push air(up to supersonic), pull air, do the same with mobs and blocks. You can push yourself up to the air, stay still, and move around with style. You can quickly regenerate health(at the cost of biomass and energy, speed depends on how much bots are in you). You can compress air, move it, and release it a la Bartholomew Kuma. You can send heat rays. You can convert your energy to light. You can OP yourself(haha, kidding). You can make your bones from adamantine, make nets of adamantine for body integrity and more endoskeleton, and (pen)ultimately transform to adamant golem. Then, you can make adamant golem from bots and adamantine and make them do stuff. Make turrets and plated mobile shield to protect your protected chunks from hordes of mobs.
Yes, the fun stuff. Mobs, in addition to normal spawning, now spawn in hordes. When you first stick your adamant tool head to a stick, the horde awakens. The spawning system is based on points. It starts from a few hundred. Each mob reduces the points by a few, and the mobs are semi-randomly upgraded with the cost of more points. When the upgrade is enough(or no more chance to upgrade, or no more point), another mob is spawned and upgraded, and so on. The horde will spawn from 100~ meters from the targeted chunk and walk their way through. When they arrive or when they meet the player, they will charge upon the target. Creepers will blow up besides turrets or unnatural blocks inside the chunks. Skeletons will rain down arrows and javelins and, depending on upgrades, will set fire or destroy your turrets or bases. Zombies will... Do what zombies do. Nether creatures will spawn near adamantine veins(aka bedrock layer) regardless from light. They also join the horde. When a horde is spawned, the point will go up 2/half hour and the point limit will increase by a random two-digit number. When the limit is passed, the chance per second that the horde will spawn will increase a bit until the horde is spawned.

Later, my mom...

EDIT: My mom. This thread a.k.a. Suggestions I'm too coward to post on the real board.

Edited by Miner239
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I may like something like that. Although to be honest in principle I am against any kind of magic for tfc. I want the game to be harder and at the same time more realistic, kept the points that this is still a game about making Pretty buildings with colored blocks. It has 2 settings, creative where you instantly have access to all the blocks and survival, where you have to work for the blocks.

Since it looks like I am the loosing part in this fight about keeping the game realistic or adding magic, I at least am asking for a believable system, and one where you don't have something for nothing.

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Completed Gemcraft-based v1.20. Next, working on Manual Magic. 

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While I player with other mods, I always think how much I'd like it...And so I thought how could magic be believable in TFC?In my opinion TFC needs a system which has the options to make nearly any kind of magic.I read Wiki about magic, and there are some kind of magic, like sympatic, opposite, devine and so. You mostly use potions, brews, runes, anything what in normal ways shouldn't do anything.But there is some kind of force, what you can call for your aid, behind the scenes. That is mostly can be shaped by your willpower. But first you have to find the idea of magic, and then you have to have the talent to shape it. Your mind have to be opened for it. Of course, if you don't have talent, you still can use tools to make some magic.How could be that in TFC? First, this taste thing gave me az idea. In every world you need different recipes for the same action. Why? Because magic is not something what you can make out of the box, and it's power is beyond the normal ways. You simply have to live the life of a wizard, witch, warlock or anything. Your hard work will give you the power what will move the earth, control the nature, what makes you able to summon the fire of Hell. That's not a hobby. You have to work, research Minecraft months and even years. It's occult lore. Hidden by the veil of reality.So every recipe needs research again and again in a new world. For the recipes, you'll have to use scaled amount of things. When you make a potion, not just the amounts matters. The order, temperature, even where do you stir and how many times.With the runes it does count if you can place magical energy in it or just wait, to let it fill. If you can force it in a runes, the magic can be more potent.If you want to live the life of a wizard, you may needs many paper, but mostly scrolls. Those are not simple papers. They have to be prepared for big amount of energy or they will simply explode. While you do the research, you may don't have time for creating those scrolls, but untalented mages or wizards can prepare them easily, they have the right tools for that, because a they can't do from their mind. Witches are masters of potions. So this way of magic would give work for some people, not to mention they also need to eat. It's a great continue of the basic TFC.So this system need recipes with actions, energy control during the creation, and many things.What do you think?

Edited by Kittychanley
Duplicate Suggestion. Merged into existing topic.
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This very much sounds like thaumcraft.

Except Thaumcraft doesn't need talent, there is no brewery in this way and so on. :D But yes, magic usually works someway like this, I just threw my understanding of magic and suggested core ideas for it. Edited by DcNdrew
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I've been thinking about if there's room for two magic systems, and specifically if there would be a place for 'druidic' or nature-based magic.  I wanted to put some thoughts down here.

 

Pollution/Degradation

One of the early parts of this thought was, what would make this magic 'nature' magic, and how would it be different from a more 'by-the-book' arcane magic.  I was thinking of a lot of natural processes or components, but one thing that jumped out at me was, if it were to be nature-based, the aesthetic would best be supported by methods which lend themselves to nature.  So one of the concepts I came up with, was the notion of degradation of nature.   The game could have a way to track this, and nature magic works best in areas where it is least disturbed.   So, perhaps there could be a counter for each chunk, that tracks degradation.  Much like it tracks whether the fishing or panning/sluicing are overworked.  But rather than being overworked, the number would be a threshhold.  And above certain thresholds, certain nature magics will not work at all, or will work only at reduced power.  There would be two numbers - a minimum and a current number.  Some acts will increase just the current number.  There will be spells to heal degradation done by small acts.   Other acts will increase both the current AND minimum number.  The minimum number is just that, a minimum, and can never be reduced.  It represents permanent harm.   Some things that could increase environmental degradation:

- Any time a dirt, natural stone, or ore block is broken.  This would be a very small increase, but only to the current number.  This could easily add up fast, but the druid can heal it via appropriate magic later.  cutting down a tree would degrade according to the amount of wood dropped.

- Every time a 'processed' block is placed, this raises the minimum and current values.  But removing them lowers both by the same amount.  Such blocks are smooth stone, bricks, anvils, farmed ground, metal sheets, bloomery and blast furnace blocks, etc.  Maybe plank blocks even.  If TFC2 doesn't have chisels that'll simplify it.  Otherwise the fact that chisels turn these blocks to air will have to be addressed.  And yes, stone blocks and metal sheets and anvils don't produce pollution.  But the idea is to not have druids using them in their area.

- Every time a bloomery or blast furnace is lit, this raises the minimum & current, and not just in the chunk it's lit, but basically every loaded chunk around the player, the the amount goes down the further away you go.  Basically these kinds of industrial processes represent the greatest harm, and permanent, via pollution.   Pit kilns and forges may just increase the current number, not the minimum, and in a smaller area.  Because druids will probably still need *some* metal tools. 

 

The druid will of course need a way to tell how degraded a given chunk is, though this may have an associated skill and go in stages of accuracy, like the cooking taste mechanic.  Chests, barrels, fences, etc would all be fine, unless sufficient alternates are provided.  Yes, a druid could in theory let their animals roam free, or capture them with 2-high walls, but I don't think either of those is a great solution.  Roaming will just be annoying (unless the druid can eventually tame ANY animal enough to command it to stay in place) and 2-high pits or enclosures just aren't scenic.  It would be fun though, if druids could magically grow some kind of natural hedge-fence.

 

So that gives an idea of the nature of pollution.  The idea is to *not* have druids existing side-by-side in a town with people running blast furnaces and such.  The druid should be surrounded by nature.  And this notion runs somewhat counter to the stated goal of multiplayer coop, but I think it would be worthwhile nonetheless. 

 

THE EQUIPMENT

I was envisioning druids as using a variety of grown tools and blocks.  I haven't got details yet, but for instance there could be moss blocks that grow atop natural stone and dirt, but only underneath trees.  The druid could influence these blocks in various ways to grow more powerful, and spread.  These could either power a mana system, or be required adjacencies for other process blocks to function.  There could be other such plants, as well as stonehenge-like obelisks.  Different setups could give different powers.  Druids could also use crystals in their magic, as suggested above.  Hopefully it could be tied to moon cycles in some way.

 

There would probably be some overlap in spell effects between druidic and arcane magic, but in general I would imagine arcane having more pure-damage-dealing type effects, with druidic perhaps focusing on taming animals, or even allowing the druid to tame and/or mount animals not otherwise mountable, like bears (maybe vanilla mount mechanics prevent this though)

 

I was imagining the druid using copper, silver, gold, lead, and platinum in their processes, in pure forms.   No bronze, as it's an alloy, and certainly no iron or above.  I'm not sure where silver and gold and platinum fall in terms of workability on anvils - the wiki anvil page does not currently address that.  However, I think it would be best if druids did not make anvils at all, but instead upgrade their raw stone anvil (via magic, or something else) to progressively higher tiers.  It could retain the base stone, but add suffixes, i.e. 'basalt moon anvil'.  Stone anvils would of course not degrade the chunk.

I would imagine druids mostly using magic, and magic staves for weapons.   And either magic leather armor, or additional types could be added.  There could be chitin  added via giant insects, crabs, or turtles.  Perhaps bone armor.  Or even wood armor magically grown and enhanced.  Or even magical versions of silver, gold, or platinum, though I know that may be dicey as those were specifically removed some time ago for good reasons, and the unenchanted versions might risks confusing non-druids.  It would be interesting if druids could actually grow special magical varieties of tree (ironwood, etc) that could be fashioned into armor using a smithing system, but perhaps using a different tool from hammer.  Aside from armor, I'd mostly imagine druids using the metals in making vessels for their magical concoctions, maybe scythes for harvesting magical flowers, etc.  Hopefully the currently useless game flowers could be incorporated into an herbalism system.

 

In line with the idea of pollution and degradation, if the druid is carrying armor or weapons of forbidden material types, their magic would be greatly reduced, and their other work hindered as well.

 

The tricky part though, would be making this a distinct skill branch (assuming that's desired).  I imagine there would be skills associated with nature magic and arcane, and skill in one could detract from the other.   If the player wants to be the best at one, they can't dabble in the other. This would enforce a magical dichotomy.  But keeping a player from setting up a druid base in one area, and an industrial base in another, would be harder.  Unless the notion of pollution were extended to the player themselves.  So severe acts such as lighting bloomeries and blast furnaces degrades the natural essense of the player themselves.

 

Overall, the idea would be to encourage 'druid' characters (and remember, 'druid' is just shorthand for a player focusing on nature magic - there's no classes in the game and no mechanic will actually forbid the druid from making and using the industrial blocks and iron+ gear) to create home and environs very different from the 'classic' style of player town.  I was imagining simple cottage, with logs of big shady trees having all sorts of mystical looking sylvan plants, stones, and crystals.  Pools of special water, etc.  Maybe even fairys, dryads, or kodama, that the druid could attract or summon to enhance the magic.  Basically, a different, very mystical, setting.

Edited by Darmo
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No, have a bit of mods full of magic, i dislike the way of TFC going to Magics and fantastic, aproach.

I know, zombies and skelletons, not much believable, but any game need a bit of "suspension of disbelief", nothing is true realistc in fact means.

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This does sound a lot like Thaumcraft, but I was thinking more about how TC and TFC does things. Let me elaborate, both uses minigames to make crafting more challenging and fun, both have a risk to crafting (warp/flux and unknown metal, as two examples). Both have very high consistency and quality.

 

Why reinvent the wheel here? Why not just keep the magic aspect of TFC to a minimum, but allow easy integration with TC, or similar, for those players who wish to include magic into there gameplay?

 

I ask this since Bioxx have repeatedly said he doesn't have much time and must prioritize and I feel this is something that could become a huge time sink if you want it done properly (which I believe he is always striving towards).

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Some stuff would have to be tweaked to fit tfc, but maybe we could contact azanor to get a dedicated tfc-tc compatability, with both mods working together as one. I think the feel of thaumcraft is perfectly fine for TFC (in terms of "believability", time frame, etc) and the mods would compliment each other nicely.

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Unfortunately I don't think azanor will change his mod (why would he?), but that doesn't stop TFC, or an addon, from doing the same. This is especially true if TFC has taken TC into account under the design phase.
 
It would allow for fine grained integration, like having the ancient/alchemist bath from TC use TFC hot water springs. There are other stuff needed as well, like registering aspects for every TFC item, but while mechanical it shouldn't be hard.

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I am personally not that keen on having fantasy in TFC, but I'm not the creator, so *shrug*.

 

If magic is included, it should be a big deal to use it. We shouldn't have players running around shouting "lightning bolt! lightning bolt! lightning bolt!" all over the place; I'd be more in favour of rituals that have specific outcomes, like maybe enchanting items, summoning creatures/items, transforming materials, locating ores/minerals, opening portals, that kind of thing. I feel that it should take a lot of preparation and be fairly costly. I don't like the idea of unlocking spells/abilities that become permanently available. I also think the "cost" of magic should be components, not mana. Maybe there could be a player cost to it as well, like getting a "mentally drained" debuff for a while or reducing the player's nutrition levels or something.

 

I think it should be more of an endgame/novelty thing. I think mining/crafting/smithing etc. should be the strongest central mechanic of the game.

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TL:DR: Magi-tech, use gems and Precious metals for different tools, Teleporting Crystals.

 

I would love to see Magic in TFC2. I also would like to see degrees of magic. For instance, there is a few degrees involving metals why not magic? i like the ideas of ritual magic and gem magic. i would like to see alchemy play a bigger role and some kind of Magi-tech(gates/portals/Golems).

 

with the Progression looking the way it is i feel some form of fast travel system(gates/portals) should be considered. because i for one don't want to have to tear down my settlement just to go to the next island for the progression system. I also feel it should not be something out of reach until late game. even if just a simple Teleport Gem is used at first to get you to and from two locations and then later on in higher tiers of this you could make a gateway network. On top of this, Magi-tech could be the magicians combat skill as well. making wands, staves, "buff" jewelery, maybe golems and ofcourse the Teleporting/gateways. Currently we have useless metals. these are the "precious metals" that have little to no use. Platinum for instance has no use in TFC1, gold and silver is only used in small quantities. So if they are funneled to the Magic side like in Magi-tech there would be a demand and use for them. 

 

Elaboration on the Teleport Gems. Gems come in 5 types currently, maybe six. now MC is about Mining, Minerals, gems and tools. this is also why i feel a magic system involving spells should be avoided. MC is about tools, therefore a Magi-Tech Skill(like TC) should definitely make it into the the new TFC2. and part of this i suggest Teleportation Gems. these would be a tool to teleport you to a location. this requires materials to make. Also requires you to travel to the location. now there are some other mods with these in it i don't remember the mod but it was in a TolkienCraft2 modpack i played some time ago. depending on how gems are implemented in TFC2 tiers could be made based on Gem Quality. and different tiers could have distance limitations. maybe there are three tiers(example) Chipped, Normal and Exquisite. Chipped gems have a short range, maybe 1km. great for back and forth between the first islands. then normal maybe its goes higher to say 5km. this could easily reach the next tier or two. and then Exquisite would be the best at like 10km. allowing you to reach the later tiers of minerals. and to be more Multiplayer-specialization friendly maybe make the crafting the teleporting gems skill restricted but the use by anyone. this way Magi-techs could set up a shop on their server to sell port gems and other magic tools. 

 

Because, i for one don't want to pack up my entire base and move to a new island constantly. one move is acceptable to go from lowest tier to the next but the amount of time it takes to just move from stone age to Bronze age is stupid long and shortly after that move you now have access to tools that weren't previously there. so your house goes from dirt, logs, and thatch to stone/bricks and actual planks.this is a very quick leap as well. 

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Because I have nothing else to do in the spare two weeks of dorm cleaning and score fixing(hooray for good grades), here we go: Manual Magic.

 

The point of this system is you can choose to the detail how your spell would be. This would be achieved by utilizing the numpad, although 4 keys should be enough but tiresome. For example (note: arbitrary, random number):

Firebolt:            7683196280Strong Firebolt:     768319298210Heal Self:           7624576240Heal Self+:          7624579360Heal Other, Nearest: 7626954280

Now, what does these numbers mean?

The first two numbers is your key to magic. You can only use your energy by magic usefully when you know your key.

The next number is your element option. Here 7 means fire, 9 is air, 3 is water, and 1 is earth. Everything else inbetween is a valid option with its own set of spells.

The next number is your magic stance. Here 2 means offensive, 4 is self, 8 is defensive, and 6 is other. Everything else inbetween is a valid option, too.

The next two numbers is the spell's code. Fire-Air, Other-Offensive 19 is the firebolt spell.

The next two numbers is the power code. 

The next numbers is the spell's effectivity code. Figuring out the code that gives you ~99% effectivity would be an advantage. The stronger the spell, the longer the code will be, and you will depend more on the right code to not burn yourself out of energy.

The next numbers would be the parameters of the spell, but it's unneccessary for these simple spells.

The zero casts your spell.

 

Every player would have their stance and element key 'wheel' rotated and flipped, and their input keys randomized. However, the global code remains the same. If you found out that firebolt is 19 for you, and your friend know that your 1 is his 5 and your 9 is his 3, then firebolt would be 53 for your friend. Power codes follow this rule, too. Only effectivity, parameter codes and magic key are truly personal and thus must be discovered on your own.

 

These spells would use energy, which comes from your energy pool/nutrition/nourishment/health, whichever is available, starting from the energy pool (but it's silly to use up your health to try healing yourself). Increase your energy pool by getting experience, skill, practicing on a daily basis, [crafting/smithing/obtaining] an energy container, or casting the 'raise energy pool' spell. Having enormous energy pool is critical for your survival while experimenting with spells, because you'll never know how much that spell costs.

 

I'm pretty sure that 6561 (9^4) slots of spells would be more than enough to accommodate every spell that crosses anyone's mind.

Heal? Check.

Chuck someone off that cliff? Check.

Firestorm? Check.

Repair your armor? Check.

Conjure flux? Check.

Stone boulder roll? Check.

Crop insta-grow? Check.

Turn yourself to energy following E=mc2 like that guy in Inheritance? Why not? would crash, burn, and turn the server to wasteland, duh

 

I'm pretty sure that I don't have enough dedication to update the OP, so, yeah. Heck, I can't even bring myself to finish that bottle of ketchup I bought 2 months ago, and it's still half full!

Edited by Miner239
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