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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Rowist

Skill Books and Tech tree

17 posts in this topic

The premise is that books don't really serve a purpose in TFC like they do in vanilla with enchanting.

 

In the real world written language came to be as a means to preserve knowledge. My idea is that in the book writing UI there could be a way to create a book that "records" your skill level in one area. For example, once you have completed the expert skill level in weapon smithing you could "write" a book called "Expert Weapon Smithing". Later on if you died and lost your skills, you could simply go back and "read" that book and you would "learn" your skills back to that point. It would create an incentive to craft books and record your skills every so often. In SSP it would be a means to preserve your own skills. In SMP it could even be a means to teach your friends by sharing books.

 

I don't know if it would just be tedious, boring and unnecessary, but it sounded good in my head. It also opens up the possibility for different types of paper production and book binding. For example there could papyrus made from reeds, parchment made from animal hides, paper made from plant fiber, and maybe even scrolls in addition to bound books.

 

I'm not sure if this is a violation of Rule #2, but I'm doing it anyway. I had this idea just before 79 when the devs did away with losing your skills when you die, so I never posted it. If I am indeed guilty I will gladly move it to the TFC1 suggestion forum.

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Good idea.  Perhaps have the book only be worth part of the skill - otherwise it might be simply too easy - and we all know that "practise makes perfect". :)

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There's no plan on making skills disappear on death in TFC2, so there's really no use for these kinds of books. If anythings, players on competitive servers wouldn't want to share their skills so they retain their usefulness to the group. If only one guy goes through the hard work and effort that it takes to max out all his smithing skills, letting another player get those same benefits by doing nothing more than reading a book defeats the point of grinding the skills in the first place.

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I hadn't really thought of it that way Kitty. I've only ever played TFC in single player.

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I agree with kitty

Edited by Dufous
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but an idea for a use for books (paper) could be great! and kitty what happens to burlap clothes ?

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but an idea for a use for books (paper) could be great!

Check out the magic thread.  I suggested books be involved in magic.

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kitty what happens to burlap clothes ?

 

Go read rule #4 and #5 please.

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i just dont wanted to create a new topic just for that question...

Edited by landryx
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Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): yes
Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted.

In TerraFirmaCraft, you can just look on the wiki to make something. But this idea will change that to add more exploration in-game and you don't need to ever check a wiki to play the game!

 

Inteligence:

When you start, you will basically know how to do nothing, and you can't make anything. But once you pick up sticks and rocks off the ground then look at an animal you will figure out how to make a knife. You kill something with the knife and figure out how to make a spear. Then night arrives. You look at sticks and rocks and realize how to make a campfire.

This is how my intelligence would be. You wouldn't be able to just make things, you would have to figure it out. It would work similar to how Thaumcraft makes you scan things for elements before you can use them. But this wouldn't work exactly the same, because you would be learning how to craft things. It would store the recipes in a menu similar to the achievements. You would go in your achievements and select your current age (new ages would unlock as you go along, but you start in paleolithic) and you can see the recipes you learned then. It would have a web of things you learn like thaumcraft and normal minecraft achievements and when you hover over one it says what you need to do and when you do it a recipe reveals itself. I'm not sure exactly what you would do to open this menu, but the two best ways I could think of are an HQM type thing that is a book you start with like Tinker's Construct, Thaumcraft, (except in there you make it, obviously not the case with this) and Feed The Beast mod packs. Or the second way is the achievements menu or a new menu like it (like Ark) that shows it. Each one has pros and cons like books you can lose or give to people but with a menu you can't explain as much unless you completely change the way that works. However I don't think this would need to be SUPER detailed because you only need a hint to what you do to unlock it like "maybe I can use (something) to do (something else)..."

 

Skills:

It's pretty standard... the more you do something the better you are at it. You attempted this in the first version but it wasn't effective because you couldn't check your progress or see when you level up your skill. Just have a tab in inventory with an enchantment bottle that shows like Farming: level 9 95/150
Hunting: level 3 22/30

Fishing: level 0 0/10

Crafting: level 4 4/5

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On 8/23/2015 at 6:22 AM, Rowist said:

In the real world written language came to be as a means to preserve knowledge. My idea is that in the book writing UI there could be a way to create a book that "records" your skill level in one area. For example, once you have completed the expert skill level in weapon smithing you could "write" a book called "Expert Weapon Smithing". Later on if you died and lost your skills, you could simply go back and "read" that book and you would "learn" your skills back to that point. It would create an incentive to craft books and record your skills every so often. In SSP it would be a means to preserve your own skills. In SMP it could even be a means to teach your friends by sharing books.

It also opens up the possibility for different types of paper production and book binding. For example there could papyrus made from reeds, parchment made from animal hides, paper made from plant fiber, and maybe even scrolls in addition to bound books.

There's some good stuff here.

As Kittychanley pointed out I don't expect someone to lose all their skills when they die. That's pretty extreme. I do like the idea of recording(functionally enchanting) your skill level on a manuscript or scroll. Once recorded, You can give the inscription to someone else. Upon using such inscription, if the players' skill level is equal to or lower than the recorded level, the item is consumed and it gives the player a bonus experience  buff which increase the amount of points when they level that skill.

The amount of bonus points could be flat, tiered based, a ratio based on the difference between the inscriber and the reader, or combination of these. I favor a system that works like this. If the writer and the reader are the same level the bonus is 5%. If the writer is at skill cap and reader is at a skill of 1 they get 1% experience boost. If the difference between the skill levels of the writer and reader are a quarter of the max skill cap then the reader gets a 10% bonus on experience. 

Spoiler

SkillBonus.jpg

The X axis is generated using the using the formula (Writer Skill level - Reader Skill level) / Skill Cap.

The Y axis is the bonus you'd get from the corresponding number generated by the above formula

The reasoning behind  left end of the chart is that if you write down your knowledge it helps you learn like taking notes for a test. The reasoning behind the right side of the chart is that if you are just starting to learn a skill then reading a script from a master doesn't help you as much as something closer to your knowledge level because most of the script will be over your head. The peak in the center encourages people to keep a variety of skill scripts so they can choose the appropriate one that will maximize their experience bonus. Since the scripts would be one time use I would allow players to copy scripts which would encourage trade by creating a higher demand for script materials and a market for different skill scripts written at various skill levels. To prevent other from copying the scripts that people sell them, thereby killing trade, I suggest the following.

First, to create a scroll requires some infrastructure, resources, time, and preparation. By the time someone is done they've used hide, barrels, quicklime, water, log, rack, writing desk, did the scraping minigame three times, waited over a minecraft day, and did what ever it takes to make ink. Not a quick easy process. Once prepared then record on your script what skill you want and hit the bind button in the writing desk interface and you'll have a skill scroll that can be copied. At this point you can make the easier, less time and resource consuming papyrus paper and copy your scroll onto it to trade with others. Papyrus sheets can not be copied. When you are done you can put your scroll in a locked container or donate it to a library/bookstore to archive and produce copies. The merits of this system is that it puts a barrier to entry on scroll production by making it expensive enough that not everyone has the means, it puts a safe guard in place by allowing papyrus books that can not be copied which would be cheaper and take less time to make, and still gives the player freedom to contribute their scroll which can be copied to an archive controlled by another player. This last one is a big one because as the book store owner you could pay someone to record their skill on a scroll you've prepared so you can add it to your archive and make copies of it. 

On the whole it develops book making into something worthwhile and a means of fostering trade for individuals or setting up a library for the community. I would definitely play around with the graph to find a nice balance between useful for single player and multiplayer. A higher percentage when the reader and writer are the same level favors single player since you can't be higher level than yourself. In multiplayer the location of every point is changes the balance. Moving the peak right favors larger gaps between skill levels and makes them less useful the higher skilled you are. Inversely moving the peak to the left favors smaller gaps and makes the books relevant longer. Moving the peak up higher compared to the left and right increases the significance of finding the right book to hit that sweet spot. By rounding the graph you make the sweet spot bigger.

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51 minutes ago, Stroam said:

 Upon using such inscription, if the players' skill level is equal to or lower than the recorded level, the item is consumed and it gives the player a bonus experience  buff which increase the amount of points when they level that skill.

.... If the writer is at skill cap and reader is at a skill of 1 they get 1% experience boost. If the difference between the skill levels of the writer and reader are a quarter of the max skill cap then the reader gets a 10% bonus on experience.

More use for paper and SMP enhancement, I like it! 

So regarding the first sentence I quoted, it is a temporary buff?  Can you only have one skill book 'in effect' at a time?  Or do bonuses stack (with reducing effectiveness of course)?  If temporary, is it time-based, or active until you reach a new rank/read a different book?

Regarding second quoted sentence, what are you meaning by 'skill cap'?  The max rank achievable?   Is the 'difference between skill levels' a difference in rank, or in actual xp numbers?  Because I'm pretty sure the xp is non-linear.  And in TFC1 there were only like, 4 or 5 ranks right?

Alternatively (or in addition) if the notion of decaying skill levels were a thing, and the player gained skill points upon leveling, which they'd use to 'lock in' skills so they don't decay beyond a certain point, these books could be required to do the locking in. 

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Posted (edited)

The buff would be temporary. You can have multiple book effects for different skills at the same time. Boost to the same skill doesn't stack, it replaces the current buff. It's time based. 

Skill cap is the max rank achievable. The difference in skill level would be determined by how Bioxx sets that up, most likely total XP and not rank. 

Obviously I'm biased on the decay and would have that as an addition to skill books. I don't like the notion of skill books locking in your skill level because then you can raise all the skills to that point. With skill decay, making the scrolls at your highest skill level helps regain your skill level faster should they decay by giving you a progressively larger XP boost the more the skill decays because your level at the time of writing the book would be higher than your current skill level. Tweaking the graph a bit you can increase this effect substantially as long as you don't let it decay too far. I'm up in the air on whether the bonus should be smaller bonus you get every time or a larger bonus that you have a chance of getting. It'll probably be what ever is easiest for whom ever develops it.

Edited by Stroam
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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Stroam said:

I don't like the notion of skill books locking in your skill level because then you can raise all the skills to that point.

Well, what I was suggesting was in the context of having the combination of your skill decay suggestion, and my skill points suggestion, from that other thread.  My skill points suggestion was that the player gains skill points at some rate.  Maybe one per level, maybe one every 4 levels.  Kind of depends on how many skills the game ends up with.  And it could be configurable.   So for single player, if the player doesn't want to deal with skill decay, then just configure it to give them enough skill points to lock in all the skills they want.  On the other hand, in a SMP environment, the gain rate could be set rather low, to encourage players working together and specializing in different skills.   Or decay rate could be configured, as low as 0 if the player doesn't want skill decay.  Then it wouldn't matter how many points the player gets because there would be no decay.  If both point gain and decay rate were configurable, the game could be adjusted to anywhere from 'easy mode' to some sort of default, to fast-decay-low-point for SMP.

The point being, you can only use that to 'lock in' all skills at max if the player gets enough skill points to do that, so you adjust the gain rate to avoid that (if that's the desired outcome).  So if there's 10 skills at max 5 ranks, that's a max of 50 ranks.  Give the player a skill point every two levels, and they'll only have 25 skill points at level 50 (you only get a point for a given milestone once.  If you lose levels and then reach it again, you do not re-gain the point, unless you also lose the point at the same time as levels).  The idea being this makes the player choose if they want to focus in a few skills and lock them in at max, or lock in all skills at a mid-level.  That was the idea in a nutshell, and I was just tying in the books as the mechanism that does the locking-in.  So you have to have an available skill point AND an appropriate book, to lock that rank in.

Either way, I really like this skill books idea.

Edited by Darmo
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Yep, as you pointed out, two numbers, gain and decay, custom tailors the game to a preferred difficulty curve and honestly I can't think of any other system that is that flexible and easy. I'm sure server owners would love to have those two numbers to play around with for all the skills. At this point I think we deviated enough from the skill book topic that unless we've got more to add to skill book explicitly we should discuss anything else in more appropriate thread.

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So ok, that idea covers books that temporarily boost skill xp gain.   Which are reasonable to let the player craft, since they're time-limited and as proposed, skill-level limited.  That provides a lot of breadth of need, which is good for SMP. 

Another type of book might provide a direct benefit to products of skilled trades.  This would make more sense with some trades than with others (cooking more so, smithing less, magic definitely), but so for instance rather than 'using' the book and having it disappear, the player puts the book on a shelf.  And it perhaps takes many books to get a significant bonus.  And the higher your tier, the more books it takes.  So the player has some bookcases, in range of their process block of whatever type, and being in that range with X books provides a certain percent benefit to the finished products.  So it only works on skills that affect finished products.  Their smithing for instance would get a small smithing bonus boost on their tools and weapons.  This is explained as, the player having detailed manuals nearby helps them produce better items, vs going from memory. 

To balance it though, the books get used up.  So they have a durability which goes down each time they contribute to a item bonus.  This could be rationalized as the books being used so much they eventually fall apart.   Also, the books have tiers, and they must be of a higher tier than the player's skill to provide benefit to that player's skill's product.  In single player, the player finds these books as loot.   In SMP, perhaps players are allowed to make them, and sell them to other players.  So there are two methods of obsolescence - either the player uses them so much they fall apart, or the player eventually advances to the next tier and no longer gets the benefit from the book, since they now innately know the knowledge it contains.   Similar to Stroam's mechanic, The benefit is greatest for a book just one tier above the player's skill.  No benefit for lower, maybe reduced benefit for 2 tiers higher, and no benefit for tiers higher than that - it's just too complicated for the player to grasp.

So mechanically I imagine this as, the player produces an item that has a skill-based bonus potential.  Scan a 7x7 area around the player for bookshelves.  Player's relevant skill tier is 2.  They have 10 tier 1 books (do not contribute), 10 tier 2 (each adds +2) 8 tier 3 (each adds 1) and 6 tier 4 (do not contribute).  So the player has 28 points of contributing books within range.  At tier 2, they maybe have to have 25 points worth of contributing books, so they get the bonus.  At tier 4, maybe they have to have 100 points of contributing books.  But all the books will have to be tier 5 (max tier) and each one only contributes 2 points (for being 1 tier above the player's skill).  So not only do the amounts required go up, but the rarity of high tier books is more.  SO it gets harder and harder to get a library bonus at upper skill tiers.   Or not.  The contributing points requirement could remain the same, so just book rarity contributes to difficulty.  That might be reasonable if the books are used up over time.

There could be special loot-only tomes that contribute extra amounts, no matter the player tier, to spice things up.  They could in effect be 'masterwork' books, and the player only has a chance to produce them at tier 5 skill, and even then only a small percent chance.  As long as they get used up, it should be balance-able. 

So ya, that's another option for beneficial books. 

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Was listening to the history channel on the industrial revolution and learned how one company would spend a lot of time and resources to develop a technology. Then someone else would learn that technology and spend resources improving the technology or inventing a new one based off the ideas of the old one. I took away two patterns away from this.

The first is that it took time and resources wasted to develop a technology. In this way I think ever advancing technology could require a resource cost similar to civilization games, where to unlock a technology requires x amount of resources. In some progression questing modpacks, they had it so you would set a quest block by clicking on it with the quest selected in the quest book and then deposit the required items into the quest block. This shows some form of it is possible.

The second was that when someone had invented something, the second inventor who iterated on that idea didn't have to pay the costs to learn what the first inventor discovered if he could be taught that technology. This is where skill books come into play.  In addition to increasing the speed in which you get a skill it also unlocks certain technology without paying the cost. This lengthens the single player experience and helps new players to a server catch up to those who have been playing longer. 

So how I would structure this is to unlock a technology requires a resource cost, minimum skill requirement, and tech earlier in the tree unlocked. (The minimum skill level is so that you don't have someone with no knowledge of smithing learning how to make a complex smithing item. The previous technology unlocked speaks for its self I believe and the resource cost was already covered.) Players can then make skill books. Going back to the writing desk example in my previous post, in the interface not only would you select a skill but you would select the technologies you have unlocked for that skill, maybe at an increased cost for each additional technology. Players who then read these books will not only gain skills faster but as long as they meet the minimum level requirement will unlock the tech without having to pay the resource cost. 

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