GrindCraft stone age - abundant rocks and papier-mâché toolheads...

[Kill3rCat 4]

Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): 
Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted.

Och aye.

 

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So, I love TFC and have been playing it for a long while. Something that always bothered me was that the stone age felt like a bit too much of a grind. Stone tools breaking easily adds value to metal tools, and a strong incentive to produce metal tools, and I love that.

 

However, the current durability of stone tools is a little silly. I propose the following simple changes: Increase the durability of stone tools by, say, a factor of 3. To balance this, decrease the number of loose rocks on the surface by the same amount.

 

This will also have two side effects:

 

Stone as a building material will be slightly harder to attain, (currently, you can easily build a cosy 4x4 house with a 1-block high lower wall of cobblestone, and another 1-block high wall of logs on top of that - it's a bit too easy). A wooden shack will be a much more appropriate and feasible temporary shelter during the early game, and stone as a building material will become more practical in the later game, once metal tools have been made. This is more believable and makes more sense from a gameplay perspective... though of course it's still possible to run around for a few hundred metres picking up loose rocks to build your house with... To properly tackle this, greater and different changes would have to be made, but that's a topic for another... topic.

 

Secondly, if the durability of all stone tools is increased by the same factor, then the durability difference between tool heads made from different rock types will become slightly more profound. This makes sense logically, realistically and in terms of gameplay.

Edited 5 Oct 2015 by Kill3rCat

[Ancaladar 13]

I disagree with making stones less easy to find.  I can walk around my property and find bazillions of fist-sized rocks everywhere, what you propose is just not very believable.  Knapping stone tools also gives you something to do each night since you're not going to be sleeping through it with your straw+hide bed.  Giving us things to do at night makes the game seem a little less tedious; removing said things to do at night would just mean sitting in your small hut and twiddling your thumbs as you spend your 10th night sitting there with an organized inventory and half-broken stone tools.

[Kill3rCat 4]

I don't know where on earth you live (edit: Scotland? Even so, the density of loose rocks is lower than TFC), but the chances are that walking around your property is not representative, at all, of wild land.

 

It gives you something to do at night... assuming you're just sitting inside. There's plenty more to do at night, the most productive of which would simply be leaving your shelter, going further afield, scouting the area a few km around your base for surface ores, loose rocks, herds, crops, etc. while staying mobile. Even if you want to stay in your shelter, you can still cook food, smith tools (later in the game), shape clay and/or make pottery or knap out more disposable things like javelin heads. If you don't like the night, there's always a bed (though this does have the prerequisite of the ability to make planks).

 

If anything, forcing the player to perform the same repetetive task (knapping the same shape over and over) just makes the game more tedious.

Edited 5 Oct 2015 by Kill3rCat

[Ancaladar 13]

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=glacial+till

 

It's a thing.

[Kill3rCat 4]

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=glacial+till

 

It's a thing.

 

Oh come on now, that's completely silly. You cannot apply something which occurs in a very specific, localised region to the entirity of the TFC world.

[Ancaladar 13]

"specific, localized region"

 

You mean, all of Washington State and the majority of the Pacific Northwest of the United States?  Yeah, that's localized.

[Kill3rCat 4]

"specific, localized region"

 

You mean, all of Washington State and the majority of the Pacific Northwest of the United States?  Yeah, that's localized.

 

You're trying to tell me that almost half the U.S. is completely awash with loose rock? More like, these parts of the U.S. have specific locations where loose rocks are more abundant and higher in concentration, and 'normal' areas of significantly lower concentration. Also, the U.S. does not represent the entire world no matter how much the yanks would love to think it does. Obviously now, this is not a phenomenon unique to the United States, but you cannot apply this (glacial till) to the entire world, much less every single biome in TFC.

 

It would make sense for some biomes to have more loose rock than others, but TFC kind of goes overboard.

Edited 5 Oct 2015 by Kill3rCat

[Ancaladar 13]

TFC to me seems like a very mountainous landscape, therefore I apply that it must have had glaciers at one point or another, so there would be a lot of rocks both on the ground and in it.  That's just my opinion, however.  You may continue with your suggestion, and I await the comments of the devs.

[Kill3rCat 4]

TFC to me seems like a very mountainous landscape, therefore I apply that it must have had glaciers at one point or another, so there would be a lot of rocks both on the ground and in it.  That's just my opinion, however.  You may continue with your suggestion, and I await the comments of the devs.

 

Given your arguments (relating to a lot of the TFC world being rather mountainous), the realisation dawns that my own argument may be a tad flimsy. Nonetheless, I still think the abundance of stones in say, swamp or plains biomes (which were the main object and cause for my suggestion), or any region that isn't vaguely hilly is still rather silly. On that subject, I don't think I remember seeing many swamps in TFC.

 

I am aware that more mountainous landscapes tend to be more rocky in nature (hence why I made a slight jab relating to you perhaps living in Scotland), but extending this to the entire TFC world is one step too far. Regardless, the rate at which stone tools break does just add annoyance rather than gameplay value. For me, anyway. Perhaps some modifier options would be possible, further down the line (or even in TFC2). Alas, I digress.

Edited 5 Oct 2015 by Kill3rCat

[Bunsan 323]

Be polite in your conversation. Both of you.

[Ancaladar 13]

Sorry Uncle Bunsan, I'll argue the point more politely next time.

[Kittychanley 1,002]

Considering that there have been multiple versions where we specifically nerfed the durability and efficiency of stone tools explicitly because before doing so, players never bothered switching to metal, I'm going to say the chance of this suggestion being added is very unlikely. There's also the fact that there are a great many things you can't do with stone tools to discourage you from using them as well. Even when there is a stone version of a tool, its functionality is still limited (e.g. no nutrient mode on hoes, only 90% log drop rate for axes).

 

As for the durability differences between the different stone types, that was added more as an "oh that's neat" kind of Easter egg, and we don't actually expect players to explicitly go out of their way to take advantage of it.

 

Basically, if you dislike the grind of stone tools so much, then we've balanced it exactly as intended, and you should work a bit harder to get metal tools.

 

Beta v2 Pre 17

• Improved the efficiency of all metal tools a bit to help separate the early tiers from stone a bit better.

Beta v2 Build 46

• Re-buffed rock hardness to make getting metal tools more of a reward. (I'll get you stone pick worshipers one day!)

Beta v2 Build 47

• Doubled all tool max uses except for stone.
• Removed Stone Pickaxes. Besides the fact that they are incredibly unrealistic, they devalued metal picks and allowed players to progress far faster than is intended. The new changes mentioned in the new features should allow players to have a far easier time finding metal to begin with, not to mention the added realism. Many stone tools were made in history. Stone picks are basically nonexistent. This WILL make the early game more difficult, I am aware. The types of early building options will undoubtedly be limited for a while until more early building materials are added.

Beta Build 70

• Attempting to chop down a tree with an axe that doesn’t have enough health left for each and every block in the tree will now cause only part of the tree to be chopped down. No more using a single stone axe to fell an entire Kapok or Sequoia.
• Using a stone axe to chop trees now results in a 10% chance for a block to not yield a log. Another tweak aimed at making the use of stone tools not preferable.
• Tweaked metal uses and efficiency numbers. Lower tier metals had their effective reduced with large scaling as you progress up to red/blue steel.

Version 0.78.0

• Nerfed stone knife damage. Use javelins instead!

[CalangoMC 9]

stone tools is so good, many people use only stone hoe, shovel, axe, knife. The exception is if he need to work specific way, if he need  a lot of wood, straw, farmland, terraforming, charcoaling (all more intensive jobs)
same way a copper saw, is good por general purposes but if you go to build a large area with planks and lumber, maybe you see the need to better metal saw for more durability.

 

One stone axe make around 40~50 logs, not is a crap tool.
Stone knife is used far the end-game, beacuse your very cheap and usefullness

Thanks

[Bunsan 323]

Sorry Uncle Bunsan, I'll argue the point more politely next time.

It is my role to keep things civil. You both were escalating and so I reminded both of you to keep it polite. Your response is patronising. Obey Weaton's law and we'll all get along nicely, alternative is warning points.

[Ancaladar 13]

Alrighty then, sorry.

[Darmo 303]

The stone age is so short anyway, I don't see the need to change anything.  Knapping tools isn't that big a deal.  It makes you appreciate metal tools more.  As for cobble wall bases in the start, they're no better than dirt, and dirt is even easier to obtain, and also to pick back up, unlike cobble, so I don't really see the need to make surface stones more scarce either.  These things seem  fine how they are to me.

[Kill3rCat 4]

Be polite in your conversation. Both of you.

Well, we tried.

 

Considering that there have been multiple versions where we specifically nerfed the durability and efficiency of stone tools explicitly because before doing so, players never bothered switching to metal, I'm going to say the chance of this suggestion being added is very unlikely. There's also the fact that there are a great many things you can't do with stone tools to discourage you from using them as well. Even when there is a stone version of a tool, its functionality is still limited (e.g. no nutrient mode on hoes, only 90% log drop rate for axes).

 

As for the durability differences between the different stone types, that was added more as an "oh that's neat" kind of Easter egg, and we don't actually expect players to explicitly go out of their way to take advantage of it.

 

Basically, if you dislike the grind of stone tools so much, then we've balanced it exactly as intended, and you should work a bit harder to get metal tools.

 

-changelog snippety snip-

 

Well, when you put it like that... I suppose there's a fairly valid reason. I'd have thought speed, durability and efficiency would be good enough reasons to upgrade to metal. And as you point out, there are certain things which you cannot do with stone, and metal-exclusive features. I'd have thought that would be reason enough, but apparently not for some players.

 

Is there any chance you could allow us to make these modifications ourselves (preferrably not involving us leaping into the source code)? It'd be nice to be able to make some tweaks, to enjoy private multiplayer or singleplayer experiences in a way more tailored to our own desires and/or needs.

 

As I believe I said, I don't see this as a huge, gamebreaking problem, but rather something that doesn't make too much sense and isn't too much enjoyable. Perhaps there would be some other way, in the long run (not suggesting huge code changes here, don't worry) to encourage the use of metal tools without enforcing the upgrade through means of early game tedium?

[ChunkHunter 73]

Unless you're really unlucky (or on a server where the surface has been stripped bare of ores), you won't be in the Stone Age for hugely long.
It might take a while to find flux so that you can progress beyond basic copper and bronze tools, but you should be able to get to copper *relatively* quickly.

[bilbobuddy 24]

Yeah I think if anything the stone age should longer, but maybe not in a grindy sense. I can't stand the idea of making the stone age shorter especially with vanilla mobs still on the surface

[MiaMia 21]

Yeah I think if anything the stone age should longer, but maybe not in a grindy sense. I can't stand the idea of making the stone age shorter especially with vanilla mobs still on the surface

 

Interesting discussion. I would like to throw in my 2 cents.

 

Stone age could be longer, but it would have to be rebalanced. Lately, I tried to do what someone on this forum described - limit myself in progression. Like, spend a whole year without any metal (copper) tools.

I soon found myself irritated by small things. Like: it is obviously possible in real life to make many things without a metal saw. Like ladders: use strong branches of trees or young trees or bamboos, tie them with some kind of rope (made from plants, maybe roots? - I know from experience some trees have VERY "ropey" roots). Or milking a cow: you don't need wooden bucket for that, ceramic pot would make it. Or making cloth. Etc...

 

I lasted until early winter and dropped that idea

 

But, if the mod would allow all that in stone age, it would be in conflict with what Kitty wrote above - that they nerfed stone to make people actually use metal at all...

 

Balance of a mod is a tricky business. I have in my mind this idea for a huge industrial mod for TFC. But I'm changing my mind constantly and once I start to discuss stuff with the other half of my "team", there are even more changes. All because of the balance...

 

Personally I think TFC is very well balanced, except for one thing. But this one thing can be changed with a simple mod and that's gonna probably appear soon here...

[TonyLiberatto 364]

My point is that in Real Life to have a tool that is faster, safer and more durable are reasons enough to upgrade. Nature already created the balance, the closer we get to that the more balance we will be.

That said, we need to remember that Minecraft is a game about using colored blocks to build.

There are 2 versions:

Creative, you instantly have access to all the blocks and just build and create.

Survival, you have to work to get the blocks.

Terrafirmacraft ads more hard work in obtaining those blocks.

I would love to have Stone age extended in a way that mimics real life. But it would require as much planing and work as it was put into metallurgy. I don't see the Dev's doing it. Maybe if someone new would join the team they could work on that.

I think given the choice anyone will upgrade from a stone tool to a metal tool. Nobody keeps using stone axes after having metals, and they do exactly the same work. 

[Kittychanley 1,002]

I think given the choice anyone will upgrade from a stone tool to a metal tool. Nobody keeps using stone axes after having metals, and they do exactly the same work. 

 

This just isn't true. I personally have never made a metal knife. I'll also use stone shovels for clearing projects. I almost never bother with a metal hoe unless I absolutely need the nutrient mode, but due to the agriculture skill restriction on that, it doesn't happen for a long time. If I'm clearing out an area of forest and am not strapped for logs/charcoal, I'll just use a stone axe. My smithing area usually just has a few tool racks of stone hammers, and won't make a metal one unless I'm doing an excessively massive batch of smithing and haven't mastered the perfect combo of moves yet.

[Kill3rCat 4]

This just isn't true. I personally have never made a metal knife. I'll also use stone shovels for clearing projects. I almost never bother with a metal hoe unless I absolutely need the nutrient mode, but due to the agriculture skill restriction on that, it doesn't happen for a long time. If I'm clearing out an area of forest and am not strapped for logs/charcoal, I'll just use a stone axe. My smithing area usually just has a few tool racks of stone hammers, and won't make a metal one unless I'm doing an excessively massive batch of smithing and haven't mastered the perfect combo of moves yet.

 

Well, stone tools will always be a pain in the rectum when it comes to balance, I am sure. The only tools I usually bother making metal parts for are axes, maces, saws, propicks, picks and hammers. I occasionally make chisels if I am feeling creative, and hoes if I decide I need the nutrient mode (since you don't really use the hoe enough for durability to be a huge concern). Metal scythes, knives, javelins and swords are almost unheard of in my Survival games, as is armour.

 

I think I better understand now your reluctance to increase the durability of stone tools.

Edited 8 Oct 2015 by Kill3rCat

[TonyLiberatto 364]

It has been some time I am insisting that high tier tools need to offer more speed in comparison to low tier.

In real life a metal tool is lighter and stronger, what allows the user to hit harder and faster. Also metal tools make the job of for example chopping down trees so much easier that it consumes less energy, ie calories.

In "Archeology by Experiment" by John Coles we read:

"A steel axe. weighting 2.3 Kg with a cutting blade 14 cm wide, was compared with a granite axe, 1.8 kg and blade 5 cm wide. The measurement made was of the kilocalories consumed by the manual effort in chopping at 24 strokes per minute for 5 minutes on a 15 cm diameter maple tree. The volume of air expelled was measured and its oxygen content was reckoned, leading to calculations of energy expended. The use of the stone axe consumed 5 times as many Kilocalories as did the use of the steel axe, and the conclusion was that the stone axe took 5 times the energy and 6 times as long to acomplish the same work as the steel axe."

I am the first to point that many people confuse stone age with caveman. The lack of metal tools was not an impediment to building wood houses, farming and animal husbandry. 

That said metal tools should be faster, more durable and use less effort. It was reason enough for humanity, it should be reason enough for a player, if is not is because the settings are not adjusted to real life scale.

I am not saying that it should take 30 in real life minutes to chop down a tree in game. But we can use the existing code to tweak how fast and how much energy ( fatigue, thirst  and hunger) it takes to do the same job using Stone tools versus metal tools.

Since stone tools have a low durability, it forces the player to carry extra or to stop what is doing to make new ones. I find that annoying enough to make metal tools. I like to terraform and change the landscape, that means I will gladly use red steel to make shovels, because they are faster and last much longer. 

It looks like there are many more play stiles then I imagine. 

At least we all are having fun playing the same mod. One more thing to be thankful to the Dev's, the fact that the mod allow for so many different play stiles.

[bilbobuddy 24]

It has been some time I am insisting that high tier tools need to offer more speed in comparison to low tier.

In real life a metal tool is lighter and stronger, what allows the user to hit harder and faster. Also metal tools make the job of for example chopping down trees so much easier that it consumes less energy, ie calories.

In "Archeology by Experiment" by John Coles we read:

"A steel axe. weighting 2.3 Kg with a cutting blade 14 cm wide, was compared with a granite axe, 1.8 kg and blade 5 cm wide. The measurement made was of the kilocalories consumed by the manual effort in chopping at 24 strokes per minute for 5 minutes on a 15 cm diameter maple tree. The volume of air expelled was measured and its oxygen content was reckoned, leading to calculations of energy expended. The use of the stone axe consumed 5 times as many Kilocalories as did the use of the steel axe, and the conclusion was that the stone axe took 5 times the energy and 6 times as long to acomplish the same work as the steel axe."

I am the first to point that many people confuse stone age with caveman. The lack of metal tools was not an impediment to building wood houses, farming and animal husbandry. 

That said metal tools should be faster, more durable and use less effort. It was reason enough for humanity, it should be reason enough for a player, if is not is because the settings are not adjusted to real life scale.

I am not saying that it should take 30 in real life minutes to chop down a tree in game. But we can use the existing code to tweak how fast and how much energy ( fatigue, thirst  and hunger) it takes to do the same job using Stone tools versus metal tools.

Since stone tools have a low durability, it forces the player to carry extra or to stop what is doing to make new ones. I find that annoying enough to make metal tools. I like to terraform and change the landscape, that means I will gladly use red steel to make shovels, because they are faster and last much longer. 

It looks like there are many more play stiles then I imagine. 

At least we all are having fun playing the same mod. One more thing to be thankful to the Dev's, the fact that the mod allow for so many different play stiles.

 

 

For me the extra speed/durability is not enough for me to want to upgrade. I need more.