Content: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Background: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to TerraFirmaCraft Forums

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

  • Announcements

    • Dries007

      ATTENTION Forum Database Breach   03/04/2019

      There has been a breach of our database. Please make sure you change your password (use a password manager, like Lastpass).
      If you used this password anywhere else, change that too! The passwords themselves are stored hashed, but may old accounts still had old, insecure (by today's standards) hashes from back when they where created. This means they can be "cracked" more easily. Other leaked information includes: email, IP, account name.
      I'm trying my best to find out more and keep everyone up to date. Discord (http://invite.gg/TerraFirmaCraft) is the best option for up to date news and questions. I'm sorry for this, but the damage has been done. All I can do is try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
    • Claycorp

      This forum is now READ ONLY!   01/20/2020

      As of this post and forever into the future this forum has been put into READ ONLY MODE. There will be no new posts! A replacement is coming SoonTM . If you wish to stay up-to-date on whats going on or post your content. Please use the Discord or Sub-Reddit until the new forums are running.

      Any questions or comments can be directed to Claycorp on either platform.
Joanght

Changes how alcohol is made.

13 posts in this topic

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/forum/6-suggestions/

Changes with alcohol

Making alcohol serves multiple needs, preservation, and getting drunk to provide momentarily buffs to your character. However one thing that steps out of the realm of realism is the fact that higher alcohols require a more in-depth process to produce the product in question.

With your tier 1 alcohols (lesser alc by vol) can be processed using a sealed barrel into a complete product assuming the sludge in the barrel just mysteriously disappears. One can think about what happened to the sludge, does a vortex , a tare in time and space takes it all away to an alternate dimension , or perhaps one can implement the logic that byproduct waste still exists somewhere in our realm. This sludge at the bottom of the barrel, which is where the saying comes from, its the bottom , the most dirty part of processing alcohols. However this sludge, assuming your not using it to made tarter, one can use it to make fertilizer. Yet another way to replenish your crops as the sludge contains said minerals that is beneficial to plant life. Now with tier 1 alcohols explained in a way that reflects realism, what happens to your higher tier alcohols like whiskey?

Now tier 2 alcohol takes multiple steps as it does in real-life. One being a process of fermentation using your products that your used to making whiskey with, however. With traditional TFC making whiskey it does not reflect on the aspect of what a distillate is. As in real-life , to make any kind of good whiskey , brandy or even vodka, you require a system to separate the sludge from the alcohol into a pure form, this process is called distilling.

For terrafirmacraft sake, a still will not just be used to make alcohol but in regions where fresh water is rare, one can distill salt water to produce fresh water and a byproduct of salt minerals that you can refine in another process to produce rock salt that also serves yet another purpose of preservation.

The system would work with already implemented objects such as the crucible, campfire, and a forge.

Still - A Still can be forged , and worked on the anvil using metal, this still can be placed ontop of a crucible to enable a GUI that gives you the ability to use the still feature with a crucible. Now you have a still, a crucible, now you need a heat source, such as a campfire or forge to produce the heat needed to raise the liquids and condense to produce distillate. However , you have a still, you still require a pressure valve, and glass tubes(pipes) to move the vapors into another container. With actual distilling, alcohol is a low heat liquid and can evaporate little as 100*F, this enables one to use low heat wood logs on a campfire.

For glass tubes, they are made in a recipe format using glass or glass panes, however as such for a touch of realism , molten glass to work on an anvil and a blow pipe would be another concept for the records. However for sake of ease , a recipe using glass would be suffice. Now that you have glass tubes, you still need a pressure valve.

Valves- can be used to measure and adjust pressure in a distiller. Made from metal that is worked on an anvil, you can then weld glass and the valve together to made a complete pressure valve. A pressure valve is required to be put on a still to enable the usage of glass tubes to begin building the rest of the still system. A pressure valve serves multiple purposes, one is to begin the process of building your glass tubes, but also to adjust pressure, and to use as an exit valve to a container for your distillate. Multiple pressure valves are used to increase, decrease or enable multiple barrels and distillers to be used on one system. As you build your glass tube (pipe) system you will notice that its a modular system, meaning it can be additive to produce a custom configuration. Glass tubes length and height varies, However with greater height requires more pressure, and length requires more pressure. With greater distance one can hold more liquids and pressure. One concept is to pipe water up a hill or greater height to a place where an exit value is above a large vessel or barrel. More pressure is required to push water up that distance but enables one to distill and fill multiple barrels over a great distance. as mentioned before, longer the tube is , requires more pressure, this requires more heat. However this comes at a cost, glass can break under pressure, this can be shown via a visual effect such as a color change on the tubes. Pressure valves can used to control pressure and the flow.

Tier 2 liquors require a fermentation process just like traditional TFC alcohol making, and a distill process to produce your final product.

Usage-required to distill tier 2 alcohols and to make fresh water from saltwater

Salt water by product can be salt minerals that can be refined into rock salt.

Edited by Joanght
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since alcohol is not used for much other than food preservation i don't think indepth methods of alcohol making is neccesary 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well the process of distilling has many uses. It is actually possible to make a heat pressure chamber to move water across distance. and the basic form of a pressure chamber can be used in a method such as creating hot springs.

The still can be used to create a heated pressure chamber , with the use of valves one can build a still under a body of salt water. Say a 10x10x1 body of salt water is supported by raw stone below, and under the stone is a still + crucible + campfire/forge. A GUI can be set up on a valve to enable direction of flow and rate of flow. destroy one block in the raw stone and place a valve there , piped to the still. and then on the side of the still is piped to flow out of the crucible running along under the stone before connecting to another part of the salt water. When the pressure system is running via lit forge or campfire. it forces water into the crucible , and then pushes water though the other valve that exits into the salt water. Over time the salt water source block is replaced by hotspring. When the heat source is off , slowly the hotspring source block is replaced by salt water.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Distilling, and the leftover "sludge" is probably a little detailed for TFC.

Certainly, as was posted before, in that the uses for alcolol are not huge.

 

This might be better placed in the TFC2 forum, where things like suggesting processing salt water to get salt are not a "do not suggest this" item.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd originally intended to suggest a distilling apparatus under my chemistry thread in the TFC2 forums, but as mentioned, alcohol has no real uses, so it'd just be an aesthetic thing really.  But the ability to hammer out a copper boiler and tubing would give an actual thing to do with smithing of copper.  Glass tubes and even valves aren't really necessary for basic distilling.  Moonshine was made without such technical things.

 

With regards to distilling for salt, besides being suggested many time already and declined by the devs, it would not require a distilling apparatus of any kind.  Distilling is really for separating liquids with different condensing points - alcohol and water.  Separating a solid (salt) from water requires only evaporating the water.  In ancient times this was done simply by filling a large and very shallow pool with water and allowing the sun to evaporate the water.  There are actually a lot of interesting techniques to salt refining, including some that use fire to speed evaporation, but they are still generally very large scale vs an alcohol still.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a certain perspective I like the way you think . 

You are obviously trying to add more realism to the mod.

The problem is that for what I know from the Dev's this has zero chance of being added to the mod.

At least the way it was presented and the reasoning.

No way it will be added just for the sake of adding realism.

The way I can see this to be presented in a form that at least would have a stronger argument, is if the proposal was to make a distinction between fermented and distilled alcohol.

But we would need to think of different uses for fermented and distilled.

So for example what if only fruit wine could be used to produce vinegar, and could also be used to supplement your fruit nutrition bar, after all wine is just fermented fruit juice, all the ingredients are still there.

Now distilled alcohol could be used in the production of potions and remedies, also as a fuel. Whatever more you can think to use alcohol for.

Like I said I like some of your ideas, my point is in how to present this to the Dev's in a way to maximize your chances of being implemented.

I cannot, off course talk for then, just about my experience in making proposals and suggestions.

Since there will be no further development for tfc I suggest also that this tread should be moved to tfc2.

At least there is talk of adding Magic and potions over there. That would be a justification for adding this feature.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd originally intended to suggest a distilling apparatus under my chemistry thread in the TFC2 forums, but as mentioned, alcohol has no real uses, so it'd just be an aesthetic thing really.  But the ability to hammer out a copper boiler and tubing would give an actual thing to do with smithing of copper.  Glass tubes and even valves aren't really necessary for basic distilling.  Moonshine was made without such technical things.

 

With regards to distilling for salt, besides being suggested many time already and declined by the devs, it would not require a distilling apparatus of any kind.  Distilling is really for separating liquids with different condensing points - alcohol and water.  Separating a solid (salt) from water requires only evaporating the water.  In ancient times this was done simply by filling a large and very shallow pool with water and allowing the sun to evaporate the water.  There are actually a lot of interesting techniques to salt refining, including some that use fire to speed evaporation, but they are still generally very large scale vs an alcohol still.

A still was used to condense salt minerals to produce salt compounds that contained trace minerals such as potassium. At different temperatures you are able to evaporate heavier liquids. A campfire , a Clay or cast iron pot with a Bamboo tube was a basic rudimentary still that was used. Often used in survival one can build a basic still that is heated by the sun forcing the water to condense on the edges of a container. As the water gets heavier it follows the contour of the container flowing down into a container below separating the salt and the water to make drinkable water.

Thank you for the comments and shall begin looking at the terrafirmacraft 2 section for suggestions. Not familiar with the development of TFC2 and how far along they are to being implemented as a released mod.

Edited by Joanght
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A still was used to condense salt minerals to produce salt compounds that contained trace minerals such as potassium. At different temperatures you are able to evaporate heavier liquids. A campfire , a Clay or cast iron pot with a Bamboo tube was a basic rudimentary still that was used. Often used in survival one can build a basic still that is heated by the sun forcing the water to condense on the edges of a container. As the water gets heavier it follows the contour of the container flowing down into a container below separating the salt and the water to make drinkable water.

Thank you for the comments and shall begin looking at the terrafirmacraft 2 section for suggestions. Not familiar with the development of TFC2 and how far along they are to being implemented as a released mod.

Most of what you said there supports my point that alcohol distillation doesn't need fancy glass tubes and valves.  So not sure where you were going there.  But in any case, TFC2 isn't very far along at all I think, as far as game mechanics go.  I think Bioxx is still solving the fundamental world generation and stuff right now.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of what you said there supports my point that alcohol distillation doesn't need fancy glass tubes and valves.  So not sure where you were going there.  But in any case, TFC2 isn't very far along at all I think, as far as game mechanics go.  I think Bioxx is still solving the fundamental world generation and stuff right now.

Stating that TFC could support tier products / by-products using rudimentary and advance mechanics. You cannot get good pure salt like sea salt from your basic stills.

To evaporate and process to derive potassium and other sodium based elements/compounds you need additional heat and pressure. Heat and pressure generated from higher tier sources such as a forge and bellows, this will increase pressure, and heat to force compounds to form at different temperatures. You can separate the different salts by various pressures and heats. Large stills are used to extract potassium for solutions and used in other chemical processes.

Was merely stating that the most basic form of a still is used to separate H2O from impurities, however a basic still cannot form or break/separate compounds because of the lack of higher heat and pressure. When a sea bed drys up through the means of solar evaporation, you are left with deposits of salt however that salt must also be refined to get your pure form. Even today there are several methods one being an acid treatment to dissolve lesser compounds or break them up in a denaturing form. Others use heat and pressure in a pressure chamber and valves to feed and control the flow much like a geyser.

As from reading TFC2 earlier, the mechanics of 1.8+ of minecraftwould support a heavier and more complex model sadly which isn't in 1.7mc as tfc is supported under.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You cannot get good pure salt like sea salt from your basic stills.

Do a google search for "salt pans".  Evaporating briny water in open-air ponds has been done for thousands of years, and is still done in places today, and yields perfectly useable salt.  In fact, today people pay a premium for this 'organic' salt vs laboratory derived salt.  You absolutely do not need a vessel of any kind to produce good edible salt.  The trace minerals contained in it are considered a virtue.

Of course one can use heated vessels to speed the process for small amounts, but then you have to use a fuel source.  Not a problem in TFC necessarily since it's just one to a few people and trees grow back in 8 days, but very much a problem in ancient times when they needed large quantities.  In TFC the most complicated it would need to be would be to place a clay vessel over a fire pit and continuously stoke the pit for like, an entire day or two.

I'm not sure where this focus on potassium comes from.  What purpose would that serve in TFC other than a chemistry compound?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do a google search for "salt pans".  Evaporating briny water in open-air ponds has been done for thousands of years, and is still done in places today, and yields perfectly useable salt.  In fact, today people pay a premium for this 'organic' salt vs laboratory derived salt.  You absolutely do not need a vessel of any kind to produce good edible salt.  The trace minerals contained in it are considered a virtue.

Of course one can use heated vessels to speed the process for small amounts, but then you have to use a fuel source.  Not a problem in TFC necessarily since it's just one to a few people and trees grow back in 8 days, but very much a problem in ancient times when they needed large quantities.  In TFC the most complicated it would need to be would be to place a clay vessel over a fire pit and continuously stoke the pit for like, an entire day or two.

I'm not sure where this focus on potassium comes from.  What purpose would that serve in TFC other than a chemistry compound?

Potassium is but one element in the ocean's water, in larger amounts can kill you or cause many serious organ damage.

With mineral samples they've done extensive research on unrefined salt and have found trace heavy metals that contributed to many heal concerns over the course of history. Romans also used sun-dried salt beds however have recorded health symptoms. Research have found issues that lead to the conclusion of metal poisoning due to unfiltered salt. Salt that is simply dried has too many impurities that can only be refined in a more extensive method. Go to PBS, OBP, and or google nova sure you can find the very episode or episodes. Or simply google issues with unrefined salt.

The idea for TFC is to bring light to the fact that Alcohol, and glass, and many metals (low tier) like copper have really few options to be used on. A still, if its used for separating water from impurities , or to build a more advanced pressure heated chamber , to move liquids across distance, this concept would give more flavor to TFC by adding more recipes and uses to things in tfc that have very little. The idea is to not only add one thing into tfc but make it relevant to many other uses. Not just make a still to use for alcohol but open the door to enable fresh water in places that cannot have fresh water, or to gain salt in places rock salt isn't abundant. Or perhaps sludge that you use your gold/ceramic bowls/pans to remove the sludge from wine and beer barrels or crucibles to further refine it or make fertilizer to replenish some of your nutrients in your soil. Everything has a purpose and a path to continue to further uses that's the basis of this idea of the still and alcohol processing, because it doesn't have to be just that but something that can be used and experimented on other uses to come up with even more ideas on how to use it.

Anyways , Darmo your comments are noted,

In the light to keeping this thread from going off track, will pitch this idea to the TFC2 forums.

Tonyliberatto, thank you when this idea is presented to the TFC2 thread, instead of an informal proposal, will present it in a technical proposal format to provide a more organized step by step image as to what the idea presents.

Will be writing up the proposal for TFC2 thread and will not be actively viewing this thread. If you post here, high chances it wont be seen. Thank you for your comments and as the thread slowly began going off track it did give me time to think of more ideas to add to the still proposal.

Thank you,

Joanght

Edited by Joanght
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trace elements are not in and of themselves a health danger.  Humans have evolved to deal with a certain amount of various bad elements - necessary since our primitive ancestors did not have the knowledge to refine them out.  Today drinking water for instance has allowable levels of a variety of 'bad' stuff, including arsenic and lead.  A miniscule bit won't hurt you irl, never mind in TFC, where I can fill a barrel with lead ore, and then drink from it the next day and have no ill effects.

I don't know what studies or programs you refer to.  Every google search I tried turned up nothing but articles promoting it, or at worst saying it's no better than industrial salt. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This topic has been locked per request of the author.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.