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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Darmo

A more detailed butchering mechanic, with progression

23 posts in this topic

Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): 
YES

My butchering suggestions stem from a few things - my general love for more 'in-depth' processes (seeing the charcoal pit mechanic in an LP was a strong driving force for me to try the mod) the lack of incentive to *ever* make any type of knife other than a stone knife, and the general ease of getting food in the mod - which may or may not be a concern of the devs at all, I don't know.  I searched the TFC1 suggestion forums and found this post, which seemed relevant and had some dev opinions.  But, that was two years ago, and my idea is I think different enough to warrant a separate thread, not to mention some game additions since then.

 

So in general, food is easy to get.  Meat is also easy to get in large quantities.  You just axe your animal to death --> meat shower.  I think the game might benefit both from an aesthetic sense, and a progression sense, from adding detail and progression to buthering, not just in skill, but in the tools used.  I think several factors, not just butchering, could play into how much meat is gained.

 

INITIAL DROP ON KILL, AND FIELD DRESSING

First, the initial drop.  No longer will most mobs drop cuts of meat.  They drop a corpse, or a haunch, or something like that.  The corpse is optional, depending on how much work the system is decided to need.  But the common factor, is bulk.  A small corpse - i.e. a pig - can be carried on the back.  Larger corpses - bear, cow, deer - cannot.  they overburden the player no matter what and certainly do not stack.  They are a placeable object, so the player can place them.  But they can also just be tossed like an item and left to despawn.  If placed, they become a block (two for large).  Presumably a generic corpse texture for each size, unless we want to get detailed per animal.   butchering skill is no longer gained just by killing.  It is gained in the later butchering acts.

SMALL ANIMALS - birds & fishes

Birds, fishes, and other very small animals are a special case. They probably just remain as they are now.  Unless it is desired to make the player pluck the feathers from their corpse.  But irl it's far, far easier to pluck a dead bird immediately after you kill it, so it's probably reasonable to leave them as is, EXCEPT that I don't think they should drop bones.  There's not a chicken in existence with a bone in it's body that would make a good knife handle, never mind axe handle.

OPTION - Texture Skinning

If you don't just want the skin to pop off, you can add it to the process. This is done like the current hide scraping mechanic, changing the texture of the block, presuming that's even still a thing in 1.8.  This can go pixel by pixel for lots of work (remember, it's 5 or 8 sides of a cube now, not just 1) or just side-by-side for less work (but still lots of durability off knife). 

 

The player then hacks at the corpse to dismember it.  They get 'haunches' of meat from the corpse (also hide if the optional skinning mechanic is not used).  Depending on size of animal, they can get more or less haunches.  Skill could also play a factor in this.   Haunches are themselves a placeable item, but come in only single block size.  They do not stack, and can be carried on the back.  Maybe inventory as well if we're going easier.  But they do NOT fit in vessels. 

OPTION - Method of Kill Reduces Meat

It would be good if the possible haunches were NBT data perhaps (since they don't stack anyway), and the corpse dropped can have the potential haunch number reduced depending on kill method.  A bludgeoning kill has a strong likelihood to reduce the haunch count, as it ruins meat, and ruptures internal organs, which spoils the meat.  A slashing attack is better.  Piercing attack is best - especially if it could be coded to incentivize javelins and arrows.

At this point, the player has completed the field dressing of their kill.  If it was a smaller animal they might have carried it back to their hut on their back slot, but if it's large, they had to do this in the field, with the attendant dangers.

The player now has haunches.  If they're in the stone-age, they have to cook and eat the haunch as is.  This reduces the amount of meat.  The cooked haunch also still cannot fit in a vessel (provided this is not too complicated to code, as I assume right now food-vessel-fitting is purely based on ounces via ounces determining size?) The haunch also cannot go into a sandwich or salad (again, if not too complicating of the system).  These things firmly establish the cooked haunch as a stone-age thing.  Without fitting in a vessel they will rot faster, and will take up inventory space with it's 1-stack.  Those in addition to reduced meat on cook, and not useable in meals will mean they will only be desirable early on, incentivizing full on butchering when the player has the tech.

 

BUTCHERING ENVIRONMENT

Butchering starts with a butcher block.  So the player has to have their grid.  The butcher block is a single block (crafted via 6 logs in top rows, 3 sticks bottom row.  Butcher blocks are back-only carryable.   A haunch can only be placed on top of a butcher block.  Anywhere else is "too dirty" and it immediately pops off.  Once placed, the player then uses their tool to start cutting off cuts of meat. 

This could be done again, via the texture-picking option, with each side of the cube popping off meat when done, or the haunch will have 8 slices, like a stack of coal or snow.  It'd be more fun if the slices were vertical rather than horizontal like charcoal and snow, but if I understand the 1.8 system correctly, that would result in 4x as many blocks required.  In any case, the player has to chop off each slice of meat, for which they get their rewards.  However, each time you destroy a slice/pick a side, the game checks if there are any dirt, sand, clay, or gravel blocks anywhere in a 5x5 cube centered on the haunch.  If so, decay is immediately added to the slice, due to the unclean environment.  Additional decay is added if it's raining and the haunch can see the sky.  This is to incentivize the player to have a proper room in which to butcher, and basically not butcher in the field.

OPTION - Ground Butchering

Butchering haunches might possibly be doable on the ground.  This would allow stone-age folks to butcher, and in that case maybe haunches aren't edible, to simplify things.  You simply place the haunch on a surface and start cutting off the slices.  But again, there is the check of the environment for dirty blocks.  Additional decay is applied if the haunch is not on a butcher block, and more if the haunch can see the sky and it's raining.   This allows stone age people to butcher, but with greatly reduced efficacy.  And possibly a lot of stone knife wear, if they have to cut off tons of decay right form the start.

 

 

BUTCHERING REWARDS

So the player can get meat obviously.  But how about bones?  What about other meat items?  I think it would be interesting if there were an Ark-like system, where using different tools gives better chance for different items.  So using a knife give more meat, less bones.  However using a cleaver nets more bones, less meat.  Now that example is not logical - the whole purpose of a cleaver is to chop bone.   So if you want SAPs (Stone Age People) to to get less meat, then there's no stone cleaver, only metal.  If you want them to be able to butcher meat properly, then either the knife nets the meat, or you make stone tool cleavers.  If it were desired to have further products from butchering, more tools could be brought in - a fillet knife for instance.  Or accessory requirements - you have to use a knife and have a sharpening steel in the hotbar (not sure if the block breaking mechanic recognizes that sort of thing though, which is where texture-picking might have an advantage).

Tool tier could also affect the gains.  more meat/bones/whatever from higher tier tools, or maybe more exotic gains have a base-line of a certain tier to gain.  This is to incentivize someone to actually make a metal knife.   More exotic gains could be things like fat, tendon, intestine, or bladders - fairly obvious possibilities I think.   SAPs should have a very hard time getting special items I think, or at least certain ones.   Additionally (not to sound to much like Ark) there could be certain pieces - choice meat, prime meat, liver, tongue - that can be used to tame specific wild animals (which animal takes which item could be randomized per seed) they could also of course be eaten.  These items could again tie into skill, tool type, and tool tier.

 

SUMMARY

So summary of process in general:

- Kill mob, which drops corpse item.  Back carryable for small animals, large corpse overburdens, even on back.

- Place corpse on ground.  Process corpse for skin and haunches, likely in the field.

- Take haunch to butchering block in clean room, choose tool for desired product, break 'slices' for product.

 

I believe the overall result of this system would be not only an engaging and believable butchering system, but making meat have a bit more of a 'tech tree' associated with it, and generally take more time to get.  Also people would actually make metal knives hopefully.  I think it could make the system interesting, without being grindy, and it involves no GUI at all.  It would definitely give something more for the farmer/animal husbandry person to do, as it would not be nearly as easy to get the meat as it is now.  And yet meat is still accessible to SAPs for survival purposes (birds drop meat using the current mechanic anyway).

  I've thrown out a lot of variables though, for instance quantity of meat could be affected by:

- player skill

- tool type

- tool material

   And then the following three options, which do not affect meat amount produced, but add decay, affecting the net gain.

- Butcher block or not

- Environment clean or not

- Exposed to rain

 

That's a lot of variables and it would take some balancing.  Maybe some affect quantity of meat less, and are more about getting the extra stuff.  There may be technical issues - especially with regards to whether block breaking can require accessories in the hotbar, and if texture-picking is even going to be available in 1.8.  In any case, thanks very much for reading another of my long posts, and please comment!

Edited by Darmo
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Although this sounds great, I imagine it'll stir some grumblings from the NSFW community.
Maybe something to be implemented into TFC2?

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This is a really great suggestion!

Not sure about the larger carcasses being basically unmoveable, but it looks great.

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Maybe something to be implemented into TFC2?

Well, this *is* the TFC2 suggestion forum.  I hope it's assumed that all suggestions here are for TFC2.

 

 If you're playing TFC at work and your boss sees, I think there's going to be other problems aside from the detail level of the butchering system.  But ya, I'm not suggesting it be super-graphic.  No more so than the existing chunks of meat.  The corpse would need to be pretty generic and stylized anyway unless each mob has their own.  If the graphics is the concern, that can be toned up or down according to player taste.

Not sure about the larger carcasses being basically unmoveable, but it looks great.

The idea there was kind of to both give a logical step for skinning to occur, if a more thorough skinning mechanic is desired, but also to give another level of risk/reward.  Sure, you killed that bear, but if you want that large hide you have to skin it basically where it died.   If it's close to night you risk attack.  There could even be increase predator spawn chance when a corpse is in place.   So players could like, build a temporary hut around it, or come back later, etc.  But it makes such a significant kill, presumably with more meat products, also have a few more risks.   And though fidelity to RL isn't the end-all be-all in TFC, it does bring some of this - If you kill a deer irl, you're not carrying it anywhere.  You have to cut it up in pieces (unless you can reach it with a vehicle obviously).  The player can just hack it to piece with an axe quick-like, but no large hide then.  

 

Another thought might be to have a sledge the player can pull, and large carcasses could fit on that.  No sprinting though!

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I like a sled - but that would have to be craftable by SAM

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I like a sled - but that would have to be craftable by SAM

I was just thinking sticks anyway, so 3-4 sticks vs 5-9 wouldn't be a big difference.   The main sacrifice for the sledge is the speed reduction.  The notion of large corpses being extremely large could lead to things like leading the cow into the butcher room, and killing it there, to avoid the hauling of the corpse, rather than just killing it in the field.  At least bringing it indoors.  It's a small act, but I think it would help lend a sense of authenticity to the process.

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Really cool, but it may be a little bit gross... don't you think so? Collecting the meat like it was snow is pretty brutal! If we can get a way to make it less "gore" I would love to see it in the mod.

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Really cool, but it may be a little bit gross... don't you think so? Collecting the meat like it was snow is pretty brutal! If we can get a way to make it less "gore" I would love to see it in the mod.

Heh, well, I'm an irl hunter, so highly pixelated animal corpses have no chance of grossing me out.  but I guess it may be a concern for some.  I think it's basically a matter of textures though - I don't really see why the method of gathering would be a concern.  I might try to put some examples together, maybe there could be options for both tastes.

Edited by Darmo
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I love this. Hunting and killing deer is too easy of a source of meat.

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.

Really cool, but it may be a little bit gross... don't you think so? Collecting the meat like it was snow is pretty brutal! If we can get a way to make it less "gore" I would love to see it in the mod.

It's no where near as graphic as real life.

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I think that the already-existing food prep table could be given another purpose as a butchering table. Stone food-prep tables could be required, as they would be much more sterile than the wooden ones. It wouldn't be great to have the meat cuts full of splinters and sawdust knocked off from hacking at the wood with a knife/cleaver.

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Stone is actually terrible for butchery.  At least if you value your tools.  Butcher blocks were historically made of hard woods, end grain up, as the cleaver could hit this and not be damaged, and by hitting the end grain, the wood is self-healing to a degree.   The block was kept well oiled (mineral, tung, linseed), and cleaned, which kept the blood and bacteria from finding purchase.  If the butcher block and butcher are both good, there will be no sawdust or wood chips to speak of.  

 

Code-wise, I wonder if it's even possible to use the cooking surface, because cooking surfaces technically take the block above the block you put them on, I think.  I know I've had torches on the wall block me making a cooking surface several times.  So the haunch would have to replace it.  And then you could just use any old block.  By using a burdensome butcher block, I was hoping to again encourage people to do their butchery at an established place, not just plop down a bunch of wood or stone blocks in the field and go to town.  It won't stop it, but it'll help discourage it.

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See this is the depth that I like to see in a suggestion :)

 

There are specifics that I would change just due to personal preference and ofc other things that would have to be changed because of the difficulty of coding them to work, but overall I like the ideas presented. It's something that I've thought about for a while but with dunk mostly running the animal show in TFC1, I didn't want to delve into. Now that I'm the one doing entity work, I have the freedom to toy with things however I want.

 

As with a great many things, a lot of the details here will depend on how the finished decay system looks in the end as well as other core mechanics. Keep up the ideas tho, I'll be watching this.

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I did think of an issue, if corpses are indeed encumbering - it would be problematic to have an animal corpse drop off in combat, but the player is still trying to fight other enemies, yet they are suddenly immobilized by a corpse they got close to and picked up.  That's definitely a scenario to be avoided.   Not entirely sure how to avoid that without making corpses simply not immobilize people.  Takes a bit of the work out of the system, but I guess better than getting killed by it. 

 

I guess another option could be if the corpse immediately places itself either as a block, or as a place-able item (like large unfired clay vessels are placed in a pit kiln).    Not sure if that would lead to eventual issues with clutter, since they wouldn't de-spawn then.  But then, maybe the player should clean up their mess I guess.   It would also be kind of cool if a placed corpse in block form eventually decayed down to a pile of bones if left over enough time.

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Good point about the instant encumbering!

I think placing the block then having it decay away (maybe at double-rate until interacted with?).

Assuming bones are useful, then we need to make sure that bones are part of the drop 

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Well the easy way around that encumbering issue is to simply not make the corpse a standard item. Instead of appearing as a small icon in the world, it would need to have its own 3D model which would probably just be the entity mesh rotated on its side. Then to pick it up, the player has to activate it in some way.

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I did think of an issue, if corpses are indeed encumbering - it would be problematic to have an animal corpse drop off in combat, but the player is still trying to fight other enemies, yet they are suddenly immobilized by a corpse they got close to and picked up.  That's definitely a scenario to be avoided.   Not entirely sure how to avoid that without making corpses simply not immobilize people.  Takes a bit of the work out of the system, but I guess better than getting killed by it. 

 

I guess another option could be if the corpse immediately places itself either as a block, or as a place-able item (like large unfired clay vessels are placed in a pit kiln).    Not sure if that would lead to eventual issues with clutter, since they wouldn't de-spawn then.  But then, maybe the player should clean up their mess I guess.   It would also be kind of cool if a placed corpse in block form eventually decayed down to a pile of bones if left over enough time.

I think a way to solve this would be to have automatically dropping of  back carried items upon any kind of damage. For starters it makes no sense to go around running and fighting with a barrel on your back. In the minimum it should give you slowness. If you are attacked the game should drop the barrel or animal carcass, the natural reaction of someone being attacked, but without the need for the player to open the inventory and do it. It would just fall off his back. Now the player can decide if he wants to fight or flee and leave its precious cargo there. 

 

I play ARK and really dislike the feature of getting more materials from the same source depending on the tool used. The number of bones and the amount of meat do not change in an animal. 

One more time I need to insist that the main benefits from metal over stone tools are the weight, the durability and the fatigue induced from using a heavy tool.

 

Stone knifes are actually very sharp and able to butcher an animal very efficiently. If we desire to create an incentive for people to use metals, it should be about more durability, faster, and lighter.

 

All in all I really like the main points of this suggestion. Specially if you include more multiplayer oriented things, like the necessity of having a group of hunters to be able to kill large animals. The risk of predators, so you need someone watching your back while you are working the carcass. The use of large fire to help keep predators away is also something that could be added. Working the carcass should take time. Another issue that could be addressed is that many times hunters would dry their meat before starting the trip back home, just to make it lighter and to last longer. If the hunters were close to home they would butcher and transport the chunks of meat, but if farther away they would always dry the meat first. The only thing required to dry meat is to cut it in small strips and hang it to wind dry using any kind of twine.

 

Understand that I am not trying to make it easy. the player will need to protect the meat and wait for the time it takes for it to dry. He will need to have several fires around and maybe even build some basic fences.  

 

Nomad tribes in Africa usually build a quick fence to help protect from predators, specially Hyennas. The point for me is like this, if you killed a small animal, you can just quickly clean it and put in your inventory. If is a big animal you will need to butcher and process the meat there and that should take time, so you will need protection.

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Edited by TonyLiberatto
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Well the easy way around that encumbering issue is to simply not make the corpse a standard item. Instead of appearing as a small icon in the world, it would need to have its own 3D model which would probably just be the entity mesh rotated on its side. Then to pick it up, the player has to activate it in some way.

Oh, ok then.   Glad there's an easy solution!  I did rather like the field dressing stage.

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I think a way to solve this would be to have automatically dropping of  back carried items upon any kind of damage....

 

I play ARK and really dislike the feature of getting more materials from the same source depending on the tool used. The number of bones and the amount of meat do not change in an animal. 

One more time I need to insist that the main benefits from metal over stone tools are the weight, the durability and the fatigue induced from using a heavy tool.

 

Stone knifes are actually very sharp and able to butcher an animal very efficiently. If we desire to create an incentive for people to use metals, it should be about more durability, faster, and lighter.

 

I like the dropping of back items on damage, even as a standalone suggestion.  I don't think it's a great solution to the corpse issue, because you still take damage, but Bioxx said there's another easy solution, so no prob there I guess.

 

As for stone vs metal, there's already a durability difference, and I think few people currently makes metal knives except as a novelty.  Stone shovels are also very common even when the player has higher tier metals.  These could possibly be addressed by reducing those stone tool durabilities.  But I'm not sure if it's easy to balance the uses (i.e. durability loss of knife in combat vs trimming)

 

It's funny about ark, the first time I watched videos and saw people punching berry bushes and getting all sorts of berries, I was like "ok, this is stupid".  I expected different plants specific to different berries - you don't bet blueberries form raspberry bushes.  The awesomeness of the dinos though, made me able to overlook it.   But as for differing quantities, I guess to me it's fine because it is entirely what drives the progression in that game.  In order to get the materials needed for better and better weapons and items, you have to tame progressively better and better dinos to harvest the materials better and faster, and more specifically.  The materials grind combined with level limits on items (very artificial imho) is what make the progression there.  And I don't think it hurts that game.  But dinos are awesome.

 

Tools for materials is not necessarily 'realistic' as I presented it for TFC2, but it's a useful game mechanic I think, and to me anyway, it falls within the realm of believability.  It's no more unrealistic than, say, tieing the yield to material of tool.  Even the skill wouldn't change the amount of meat and bones on the animal.  It's a matter of theoretical efficiency, and I think it's believable for a tool to affect that as well. 

 

Oh, and as far as speed, I never did mention, that's one reason to try and make the slice-breaking a block breaking mechanic.  The speed can be adjusted for tool material then.

 

On the role of tools in the system - making hunting and butchering focused actions

I think one way to bring a unique sort of ambiance to the butchering is by having many tools.  Right now, you just find an animal, kill it, get meat.  No matter where you are, or what you have.  It can be very opportunistic.   I think it would be good for the feel of the game to discourage that, and encourage butchering in an actual area, or hunting for animal products as a directed goal.  Part of that is the butcher block and clean room - that can be circumvented though.  But the other part could be the tools.  If meat and any/everything else just pops off to a knife, then the player just carries a knife anyway for food trimming, and with a little effort field-makes a butcher shop, anywhere they're at, and they can get anything.   But if there are were specialized tools, the player is not going to carry butchering tools with them everywhere they go.  The more tools, the less likely they'll have them.  That helps localize butchering to a shop with a rack of specialized tools.  And I think that would be good for gameplay, personally.  The  player won't be out doing something else, run across a deer, and get a bunch of extra goodies from it.  They can get some meat, but the rest they need to either have the tools on them, or bring the deer back to the butcher shop.  It's far harder to make tools in the field, especially if they can't be pit-kilned. 

Personally I think the stone knife could be switched a stone cleaver - a stone is knive is basically a cleaver really in some respects.  Speaking from fish-cleaning experience, the role of a good knife is allow to make narrow cuts close to the bone, which I cannot imagine a stone knive being good at, and cleavers could believably be used for trimming too.   Knives could be metal-only tools.  That's kind of an aside though.

 

One the affects on animal husbandry and tool-specific material gains

Another factor, right now it seems like after the player has a bit of skill in butchering, there ceases to be an incentive to raise animals.  Bones and leather both have pretty limited uses in the game.  Once the player has some decent  butcher skill, one pig will last a long time in terms of meat.  In order to encourag enimal husbandry, I would think it would not be desireable to have the player get tons of everything from each slice.   So your choices are basically make each slice yield very little, making it a grinding numbers game, which will probably produce loads of excess of meat or something else, or make it so the player can affect the quantity and likelihood of what they're going for.  There's only so many slices per haunch.  So if the player needs meat they use that tool, get meat, but very little of anything else.  They want bones they use that tool.  This allows players to have what they need at a given moment without having to grind.  At the same time, because they don't get everything from each slice, they're going to need more animals, assuming there are enough products and uses.  So hopefully the player will raise more animals, because they need more things from them, but can't get all at once easily.   The meat is the base need, everything else can be relegated to later tools or higher tiers of skill and metal.

SUMMARY

I hope I'm getting my notion across clearly here - In the case of butchering I think it's a better mechanic for the player to get reasonable quantities of specific things via specific tools, than get smaller quantitites of everything every time from one tool.  I think it's better for the obtaining of the things, from a material grind perspective, and I think multiple butchering tools would reduce opportunistic butchering greatly, and make hunting and butchering more directed activities, especially for specialized products (assuming we ever have such products).   I think it would also encourage raising of more animals, without making animal raising for specific needs a grind, because the player can focus on a specific material they need, and have it in a reasonable time, rather than having to do more hunting/husbandry/butchering to get what they need, and ending up with tons of potentially wasted side-product.  Hopefully in a believable and enjoyable way that adds to the atmosphere of the game.

 

And PS, if later exotic materials are added, more along the lines of dissection (poison glands, phosphorescent glands, brains, hearts, etc) it could easily be an expansion of the same general system, via more special tools, such as scalpels, forceps, bone saws, extractors, syringes etc.

Edited by Darmo
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One of the good things, if we have the  encumbrance as proposed Here: http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/8862-encumberance/  is that it would address one of the issues with stone tools, their weight. How big of an incentive it would be to switch from stone tools to metal tools if stone tools were so much heavier than metal tools? Also another thing that I keep insisting and people never address. Stone tools are slower, much slower. There is no way you can actually believe that a stone shovel is going to be as fast as a metal shovel. I know there is some speed improvement implemented in the game, but it should be much more. Stone tools should be so slow and heavy and get you tired that no way you would still use a stone tools once you have access to metals. 

 

My point is stone tools should be able to perform the same job yielding the same results. More Time consuming, using more energy, heavier on your inventory ( specially if you have to have spares ready ) and less durability ( maybe with more random chance of breaking, totally believable for a stone tool)

 

As for ARK it bothers me the concept of using a Hatchet or Pick on the same Rock to get stone or flint. Is the same rock, it just makes no sense. How hard it would have been to just have different Rocks? The same goes for trees, I chop down a huge tree, but because I used a pick it gives me mostly thatch. So easy to specify big tree for wood and small vegetation for thatch.

Don't get me wrong I play the game and love the Dynos.

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Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No):Yes
Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted.



Originally in tfc 1 animal killing was a big deal you could not just go out snd slaughter an animal because you got so much meat and bones that you wanted to keep. This was then changed with the new butchery skills and for me it removed and huge part of tfc I found myself masacering hundreds of animals to get enough meat.I found myself farming sheep for meat and I was killing hundreds of sheep to get very little meat back ... of course when my butchery skill increased it improved but in early game it removed a large element .

I think that in TFC 2 butchery skill should be combined with the orignal system of getting tons of meat.

Killing and Hunting


I suggest that animals should drop a body so if you killed deer you would get the deers body.This body item should have a damage bar so there could be a new skill hunting. The better hunter you are the less damage to the body. Which means you get more meat . So if you were to shoot the deer with a bow and arrow and novice in your hunting skill the deer would take 20% damage if you shot the deer and had high hunting skill the deer would take 5 % damage.

Also all farm animals should run away from the player until the player had befriended them with food as in tfc1

Butchery

As minecraft is a childrens game not a horror show and I presume TFC goes along in the same catagory .. this probably does not want to be graphic (imagine little berty peacfully playing tfc and then cutting the guts out of pet horse ... lets not). But this should vaugely go along some realistic lines...
My thoughts were :
The body item should be placeable and with the knife you right click to remove the hide / fur /leather . Then right click again To remove meat and bones . You always earn alot of meat but the meat has a quality bar which goes up with your butchery skill . The higher the butchery skill the higher the quality . With the higher quality you should get more nutrition to fill up your hunger bar.
The bones will also pop out with that last right click.
I also think a fun feature might be if that with max butchery skills you can remove the head so you can put it on your wall !!

The idea probably could be expanded vastly and made much better but this was my original few ideas ...
And it encourages the player to build more rooms so you have a forge/storage room and now butchery room..
Also the adittion of a buchery block made from two logs placed sideways might encourage the player with this behaviour.

Edited by Kittychanley
Duplicate suggestion merged into existing
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In before Kitty merges this with my previous butchering suggestion.  You should really search the forums for duplicative suggestions.

 

That said, you touched on animal familiarity via food.  How will the player feed the animal if it runs away?  Perhaps the player has to toss 5 ounces on the ground, back off, and then the animal comes and eats this, and if the player does this 5 times (separately, not one big lump of food) then the animal will let them approach?  It could be huge grain sink.  A bit off-topic though, in the scope of butchery.

 

Also heads on the wall would be cool.  But probably low priority.

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On 11/12/2015 at 2:28 PM, Darmo said:

Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): 
YES

My butchering suggestions stem from a few things - my general love for more 'in-depth' processes (seeing the charcoal pit mechanic in an LP was a strong driving force for me to try the mod) the lack of incentive to *ever* make any type of knife other than a stone knife, and the general ease of getting food in the mod - which may or may not be a concern of the devs at all, I don't know.  I searched the TFC1 suggestion forums and found this post, which seemed relevant and had some dev opinions.  But, that was two years ago, and my idea is I think different enough to warrant a separate thread, not to mention some game additions since then.

 

So in general, food is easy to get.  Meat is also easy to get in large quantities.  You just axe your animal to death --> meat shower.  I think the game might benefit both from an aesthetic sense, and a progression sense, from adding detail and progression to buthering, not just in skill, but in the tools used.  I think several factors, not just butchering, could play into how much meat is gained.

 

INITIAL DROP ON KILL, AND FIELD DRESSING

First, the initial drop.  No longer will most mobs drop cuts of meat.  They drop a corpse, or a haunch, or something like that.  The corpse is optional, depending on how much work the system is decided to need.  But the common factor, is bulk.  A small corpse - i.e. a pig - can be carried on the back.  Larger corpses - bear, cow, deer - cannot.  they overburden the player no matter what and certainly do not stack.  They are a placeable object, so the player can place them.  But they can also just be tossed like an item and left to despawn.  If placed, they become a block (two for large).  Presumably a generic corpse texture for each size, unless we want to get detailed per animal.   butchering skill is no longer gained just by killing.  It is gained in the later butchering acts.

SMALL ANIMALS - birds & fishes

Birds, fishes, and other very small animals are a special case. They probably just remain as they are now.  Unless it is desired to make the player pluck the feathers from their corpse.  But irl it's far, far easier to pluck a dead bird immediately after you kill it, so it's probably reasonable to leave them as is, EXCEPT that I don't think they should drop bones.  There's not a chicken in existence with a bone in it's body that would make a good knife handle, never mind axe handle.

OPTION - Texture Skinning

If you don't just want the skin to pop off, you can add it to the process. This is done like the current hide scraping mechanic, changing the texture of the block, presuming that's even still a thing in 1.8.  This can go pixel by pixel for lots of work (remember, it's 5 or 8 sides of a cube now, not just 1) or just side-by-side for less work (but still lots of durability off knife). 

 

The player then hacks at the corpse to dismember it.  They get 'haunches' of meat from the corpse (also hide if the optional skinning mechanic is not used).  Depending on size of animal, they can get more or less haunches.  Skill could also play a factor in this.   Haunches are themselves a placeable item, but come in only single block size.  They do not stack, and can be carried on the back.  Maybe inventory as well if we're going easier.  But they do NOT fit in vessels. 

OPTION - Method of Kill Reduces Meat

It would be good if the possible haunches were NBT data perhaps (since they don't stack anyway), and the corpse dropped can have the potential haunch number reduced depending on kill method.  A bludgeoning kill has a strong likelihood to reduce the haunch count, as it ruins meat, and ruptures internal organs, which spoils the meat.  A slashing attack is better.  Piercing attack is best - especially if it could be coded to incentivize javelins and arrows.

At this point, the player has completed the field dressing of their kill.  If it was a smaller animal they might have carried it back to their hut on their back slot, but if it's large, they had to do this in the field, with the attendant dangers.

The player now has haunches.  If they're in the stone-age, they have to cook and eat the haunch as is.  This reduces the amount of meat.  The cooked haunch also still cannot fit in a vessel (provided this is not too complicated to code, as I assume right now food-vessel-fitting is purely based on ounces via ounces determining size?) The haunch also cannot go into a sandwich or salad (again, if not too complicating of the system).  These things firmly establish the cooked haunch as a stone-age thing.  Without fitting in a vessel they will rot faster, and will take up inventory space with it's 1-stack.  Those in addition to reduced meat on cook, and not useable in meals will mean they will only be desirable early on, incentivizing full on butchering when the player has the tech.

 

BUTCHERING ENVIRONMENT

Butchering starts with a butcher block.  So the player has to have their grid.  The butcher block is a single block (crafted via 6 logs in top rows, 3 sticks bottom row.  Butcher blocks are back-only carryable.   A haunch can only be placed on top of a butcher block.  Anywhere else is "too dirty" and it immediately pops off.  Once placed, the player then uses their tool to start cutting off cuts of meat. 

This could be done again, via the texture-picking option, with each side of the cube popping off meat when done, or the haunch will have 8 slices, like a stack of coal or snow.  It'd be more fun if the slices were vertical rather than horizontal like charcoal and snow, but if I understand the 1.8 system correctly, that would result in 4x as many blocks required.  In any case, the player has to chop off each slice of meat, for which they get their rewards.  However, each time you destroy a slice/pick a side, the game checks if there are any dirt, sand, clay, or gravel blocks anywhere in a 5x5 cube centered on the haunch.  If so, decay is immediately added to the slice, due to the unclean environment.  Additional decay is added if it's raining and the haunch can see the sky.  This is to incentivize the player to have a proper room in which to butcher, and basically not butcher in the field.

OPTION - Ground Butchering

Butchering haunches might possibly be doable on the ground.  This would allow stone-age folks to butcher, and in that case maybe haunches aren't edible, to simplify things.  You simply place the haunch on a surface and start cutting off the slices.  But again, there is the check of the environment for dirty blocks.  Additional decay is applied if the haunch is not on a butcher block, and more if the haunch can see the sky and it's raining.   This allows stone age people to butcher, but with greatly reduced efficacy.  And possibly a lot of stone knife wear, if they have to cut off tons of decay right form the start.

 

 

BUTCHERING REWARDS

So the player can get meat obviously.  But how about bones?  What about other meat items?  I think it would be interesting if there were an Ark-like system, where using different tools gives better chance for different items.  So using a knife give more meat, less bones.  However using a cleaver nets more bones, less meat.  Now that example is not logical - the whole purpose of a cleaver is to chop bone.   So if you want SAPs (Stone Age People) to to get less meat, then there's no stone cleaver, only metal.  If you want them to be able to butcher meat properly, then either the knife nets the meat, or you make stone tool cleavers.  If it were desired to have further products from butchering, more tools could be brought in - a fillet knife for instance.  Or accessory requirements - you have to use a knife and have a sharpening steel in the hotbar (not sure if the block breaking mechanic recognizes that sort of thing though, which is where texture-picking might have an advantage).

Tool tier could also affect the gains.  more meat/bones/whatever from higher tier tools, or maybe more exotic gains have a base-line of a certain tier to gain.  This is to incentivize someone to actually make a metal knife.   More exotic gains could be things like fat, tendon, intestine, or bladders - fairly obvious possibilities I think.   SAPs should have a very hard time getting special items I think, or at least certain ones.   Additionally (not to sound to much like Ark) there could be certain pieces - choice meat, prime meat, liver, tongue - that can be used to tame specific wild animals (which animal takes which item could be randomized per seed) they could also of course be eaten.  These items could again tie into skill, tool type, and tool tier.

 

SUMMARY

So summary of process in general:

- Kill mob, which drops corpse item.  Back carryable for small animals, large corpse overburdens, even on back.

- Place corpse on ground.  Process corpse for skin and haunches, likely in the field.

- Take haunch to butchering block in clean room, choose tool for desired product, break 'slices' for product.

 

I believe the overall result of this system would be not only an engaging and believable butchering system, but making meat have a bit more of a 'tech tree' associated with it, and generally take more time to get.  Also people would actually make metal knives hopefully.  I think it could make the system interesting, without being grindy, and it involves no GUI at all.  It would definitely give something more for the farmer/animal husbandry person to do, as it would not be nearly as easy to get the meat as it is now.  And yet meat is still accessible to SAPs for survival purposes (birds drop meat using the current mechanic anyway).

  I've thrown out a lot of variables though, for instance quantity of meat could be affected by:

- player skill

- tool type

- tool material

   And then the following three options, which do not affect meat amount produced, but add decay, affecting the net gain.

- Butcher block or not

- Environment clean or not

- Exposed to rain

 

That's a lot of variables and it would take some balancing.  Maybe some affect quantity of meat less, and are more about getting the extra stuff.  There may be technical issues - especially with regards to whether block breaking can require accessories in the hotbar, and if texture-picking is even going to be available in 1.8.  In any case, thanks very much for reading another of my long posts, and please comment!

I agree, i have made an similar topic but you put greater details in this. 
Wish they put some stealth system too, just having to go stealth to the mob not run away would be already nice. 

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Glad ya like it Falcon.  I will say, there was a portion of the original thread that I think was lost when the post above yours was merged in, or during the forum switch or something.  As I recall it was Kitty or Bioxx explaining that minecraft doesn't provide the capability for a block to drop different drops based on the tool used.  They can only say "I'm broken, now I drop this!".   So my suggestion in that regard became more problematic.  I never responded to that issue, maybe I'll do that now:

So I'm not entirely sure how the new model system works exactly, but my impression is it's a bit more flexible than was initially thought in the chiseling discussion.  Apparently you can combine models together to a certain degree?  Idk.  But proceeding off that assumption, a way I thought to get around the block-drop conundrum was to have each specific tool change the 'slice' of meat to a new slice.  So there would be a 'meat' slice (default), and a 'bone' slice, and a 'tendon' slice, for example.  If the player wants to get a higher bone yield they right click with the bone-getting tool, and chance that slice to a bone slice.  Then that slice drops more bones.  Perhaps arrange it so each slice can only be changed once (so it requires a little thought), and perhaps also limit the number of bone/tendon slices a given haunch can yield.   That seems like it might work around the block-drop limitation?

It gets more complicated with more 'dissection-ey' stuff.   If a mob drops four haunches, even if you limit each haunch to one 'eye' slice for instance, the player could still theoretically get up to four eyes from one animal.  In such case you might have to limit mobs to dropping only two haunches (but you could still get two hearts or livers?).  Or you'd have to start making separate parts.   Haunches, rib cages, and heads - each limited on what slices they can produce.  That starts to kind of require several generic models of these things, or many animal-specific models.  Perhaps specialty items are only obtainable at the corpse stage? I would absolutely be down for making those models though.

Still a lot of issues at that level of detail, but maybe we'll be lucky to even get the first level of detail.  I'm hoping the current hiatus is kind of due to maybe waiting for 1.13 and the big changes with metadata and block ids?  Which if past patterns are followed might be in December?

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