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EERussianguy

Handling your wood, Carpentry and logging.

58 posts in this topic



IMO the leather processing is very believable and break the individual mass production of an item in the artesanal way, is hard and need "work" to produce and for my style is very balanced than old method.

Log planks and lumber is easy, making tfc fell "criative hardmode", none run outo of lumber, one bronze axe chop a small forest relatively easy.

 

For multiplayerserver, work to produce any goods, make the MP, more coop, and add value to the item, and this valuable have a potenciality to make trades, and trade make players interactions.

 

Another point is the durability for its tools, if you make a bronze saw, in normal way you reach iron/steel era and you first saw have a bit of durability.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
If have a way to temporary set the tree logs while chopped same as dirt or cobblestone gravity effect.

 

Posted Image

Edited by CalangoMC
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Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): yes
Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted.

 

How tree felling is right now:
 post-2319-0-52687200-1444515096.png The tree destroys itself when any log is chopped

 

How I'm recommending tree felling should be:

post-2319-0-90369100-1444515096_thumb.pn The tree destroys itself when there are no blocks supporting any of it, i.e. there is air below every bottom log. the tree is not connected to any dirt blocks.

 

My suggestion is to make it that trees don't "fall down" (break all the blocks up to the top) until there is nothing supporting the tree at all.

 

Why?

  • More interesting and believable - want to chop a massive tree down? Well, you have to do more work to do it.
  • With the new trees coming, a shiny new mechanic to go with them would be awesome!
  • You have to have some thought put into it - is it more worth your time to chop down one 4x4 tree, or 16 1x1 trees? Who knows?!  :o
  • Allows for more flexibility with building in trees - making hollow trees is possible, and you can chop some unwanted logs off without the whole tree destroying itself.
 
From below:
 

Tree's already slowly delete themselves if there aren't any blocks supporting it, because floating trees are ugly. They just don't drop any logs when they disappear that way.

 

Cool! I didn't know that! So this mechanic could be easily modified to be instantaneous and drop logs. Hopefully easy to code  :)

Edited by PhineasWynd
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Tree's already slowly delete themselves if there aren't any blocks supporting it, because floating trees are ugly. They just don't drop any logs when they disappear that way.

 

Edit: Your argument for putting thought into it also really doesn't work, because you wouldn't really care at all about the trunk itself, only how much it branches up top. Otherwise it's fairly simple math that shows that chopping down a 4x4 takes exactly the same amount of effort as a 1x1, because it's always breaking one log block to get all the logs above it. So a 4x4 tree that's 10 blocks tall, you break 4 logs and get 40 logs. For 4 1x1 trees that are 10 blocks tall, you break 4 logs and get 40 logs.

Edited by Kittychanley
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I like this idea. It makes sense. I hope it gets implemented.

I would prefer if instead of the tree destroying itself it would come down horizontally and require you to break the logs one by one. Of course it should be faster to break logs, since it actually should not matter how tall a tree is, only how wide the trunk is.

Pretty sure it will not be done, but I think it would be cool to cut down a tall tree and see it falling down. 

Edited by TonyLiberatto
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This would be great, but what about "branches" (not the straight sideways ones, but the ones that are still facing up) ... We would need to make the logs sideways or something so they don't break on a block update because there is air underneath them. Sideways logs would look awful like that though, so we might need "corner logs" or something like that.

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This would be great, but what about "branches" (not the straight sideways ones, but the ones that are still facing up) ... We would need to make the logs sideways or something so they don't break on a block update because there is air underneath them. Sideways logs would look awful like that though, so we might need "corner logs" or something like that.

 

I won't get into the technical stuff, but this isn't an issue. With some fancy programming, you can make it so that the tree only breaks if it is not connected to any dirt blocks.

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It seems difficult to believe that with some irregular planks made by stone tools, you can manage easily to get a waterlight barrel for example. I don't say that some people successed to make that, but maybe only few people with stone techs. And if barrel crafting is similar to TFC1, it can bypass some storage techs like said. So for a progressive gameplay, i think it's seems more practical to not merge "raw" planks from stone age with "refined" planks from some metal age. I see several possibilities :

 

1) So no planks available with stone tools, the most easy way to do that (but firewood is a good idea, and a raft made from logs, slower than the vanilla boat),

2) Stone tool can make "raw" planks, distinct to standard planks. Like that "raw" planks have some limitations in crafting recipes (chest or ladder, but no barrel),

3) Stone tool can make less standard planks, but you need something like generic "ironmongery" item for achieve some crafting available in metal age (chest with wooden pegs is ok, but a waterlight barrel requires metal banding),

4) Stone tool can make less standard planks, but some advanced crafting like for a barrel will not made inside the default crafting GUI, but with some action with a structure only available in metal age for some reason. I think mainly because you may need a great strenght multiplicator / mechanical strenght source, and also to make a visible use of ironmongery without spamming crafting recipes with that. Ironmongery can be implicit or a consumable like flux in the anvil.

 

I like the 4) because in some point, you need to have some structures, plenty and heavy tools to craft complex or/and mass of things.

Edited by lucan6029
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In reality stone age people were able to create water tight wooden boxes, archaeologists have uncovered many examples of that. Using wedges they were able to create planks by parting a lob in the middle and continuing that would create planks that were wider in one side and thinner on the other, but perfectly usable.

From the point of view of having a tech tree I always was in favor of starting the mod with a full crafting grid and limiting the use of things like the barrels with different solutions.

For example the barrel could require a leather band to tie the pieces together or a metal band when you have metals. Now leather is expensive and people will switch to metal as soon as they have access to it.

The same could be done for things like chests and doors its historically accurate to use leather strips to make doors, chests and barrels. As long as it takes time to process leather and make the strips people would switch to metal bands and hinges.

As for wood planks for construction we could require nails, this way it would still only be available after metal.

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I won't get into the technical stuff, but this isn't an issue. With some fancy programming, you can make it so that the tree only breaks if it is not connected to any dirt blocks.

Problem isn't in programming - it's actually pretty easy, as all the code is allready set up: tree sometimes makes a check, if it stands on dirt block, if not, it starts to decay, just replace decay function with chop function and you are done.

Real problem is balance:

  •  Digging 2 dirt blocks faster than chop 1 log  
  •  You don't lose half axe durability by digging 2 dirt blocks.

So it's very unlikely to be implemented.

Edited by Smetanol
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One way to draw back in the balance would be to divide wood into "refined logs" and "wood rubble."

 

Refined logs are the product of a properly cut down tree, and are usable, and wood rubble is wood that still needs to be chopped/carved into a useable state, due to all the branches and stuff poking out of it, and the rough edges.

 

Wood rubble has smaller stack sizes, due to it having a less consistant shape, and doesn't always give refined wood when put in your crafting table with an axe. However, you can gather it more quickly because all you need to do to get it is to uproot the tree.

 

Additionally, when you cut down a tree with an axe that doesn't have enough durability to cut down the full height of the tree, rather then leaving an ugly stump that is four meters tall, you could instead drop wood rubble for every bit of wood you didn't have enough durability to process properly on the site.

 

Of course, this makes the whole system more complicated then the one from the current TFC, but it does make it more interesting.

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Remember that the older TFC always liked the idea of having more efficient metal tools then it did stone tools.

 

Sure, you can go through the process of spliting logs into primitive planks, but it would be much more laborious then simply doing the same with a saw in ones inventory.

 

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Allowing there to be extra-laborious ways to skip small chunks of the tech tree would actually factor in well to the design of the mod, as there are some societies (Including some Subsaharan ones,) that managed to accomplish some suprising technological feats prior to learning about the casting metals. You know, such as bloomeries.

 

Not having rescources that are paticularly benefitial to the advancement of technology, such as those needed for bronze, should slow down your advancement through the tech tree, especially those that take you to the iron age, but it shouldn't cause a complete stop. The hard way twoards developing an advanced society should generally be an option, even when luck fails you.

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Thing is, planks aren't really part of the 'tech tree' of metals - which is arguably the only tech tree in the mod right now.  Right now it's possible to get bronze tools without having planks at all. You need planks to make wood blocks for the crafting grid, but I would argue that's just a baseline for any and all techs after the stone age.  After that, strictly speaking, you hardly need planks at all in terms of the metal tech - a barrel for leather, leather for bellows.  13 planks (aside from crafting grid) that will be required to get to the top of the metal tech tree.  It's mostly charcoal and flux and metals.  Now, you'll have a hard time getting all the metal required without ladders and support beams, obviously.  But that's not what it's about, it's really about how fast you get your first two metal tools, which will nearly always be a saw and pick.  And I think allowing stone-age planks will speed that process up for everyone.

 

A crafting grid only requires 16 planks.  So even if this stone-age plank mechanic only turns out 1 plank per log, it's still going to be way, way, way faster than having to work up to a saw through finding metals (unless the plank-chopping time is intolerably long), and pretty much everyone will always have their grid at the start of day two (plank chop all night) In the end I don't think it will provide any kind of 'slowed down' metals tree.    It will in fact be sped up, and become the defacto standard for getting the crafting grid, and the pick will be the standard starting tool.  I think it's great that right now, the player kind of has a choice for their first tool, between saw and pick.  If I can make planks with a stone axe, I won't have to think about it at all, the pick will be obviously superior, because I'll have it AND ladders, and that plus a few logs is all I need to dig down and get enough copper for my first several tools.   I think the loss of that choice would be unfortunate for the game.

 

Now that all assumes that no recipes change, which I know some people advocate.  But my point is, allowing planks to be gained earlier, but at a slower rate, is not going be a 'poor man's' way of getting planks.  It's going to be everyman's way of getting a crafting grid, and then quicker ore, and then all the planks they ever need. 

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I am creating a new server New Darkagecraft. Is in test faze now and open to join and help test.

I changed the recipe for the crafting grid, all it requires is 4 sticks.

Also you are able to make lumber with a stone axe.

We are also using progression, so even though you have the crafting grid and lumber, you are not allowed to make planks or barrels before you get to copper age.

To make it more historically correct and also to make the start game longer there are some requirements before you are able to make copper tools.

The requirements are: 

   Make a Sandwich.

   Make a bed.

   Get a bucket of Milk.

   Make a full leather armor

   Make a leather water sac.

The idea is that ancient humans first developed agriculture and animal husbandry, before they started working metals. Also as many players I really enjoy the feeling of starting a new world and fighting the environment.

I feel that once you have metals tools the game gets too easy and there is no challenge anymore. That's my way of extending the stone age.

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To make it more historically correct and also to make the start game longer there are some requirements before you are able to make copper tools.

The requirements are: 

   Make a Sandwich.

   Make a bed.

   Get a bucket of Milk.

   Make a full leather armor

   Make a leather water sac.

The idea is that ancient humans first developed agriculture and animal husbandry, before they started working metals. Also as many players I really enjoy the feeling of starting a new world and fighting the environment.

 

I think these restrictions are way OTT as requirements for your first copper tool.

The scarcity of copper should be what limits you not the scarcity of sheep, cows or grains

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Yeah. Is not for everyone's taste. Is for those of us that actually enjoy surviving the stone age.

Have you noticed how most people do not bother to make a Leather Armor? Is just to easy to make metals. While some people will love it others will hate it. That's OK. As long as we can agree to disagree.

After all we all love Terrafirmacraft.

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To make it more historically correct and also to make the start game longer there are some requirements before you are able to make copper tools.

The requirements are: 

   Make a Sandwich.

   Make a bed.

   Get a bucket of Milk.

   Make a full leather armor

   Make a leather water sac.

The idea is that ancient humans first developed agriculture and animal husbandry, before they started working metals. Also as many players I really enjoy the feeling of starting a new world and fighting the environment.

I feel that once you have metals tools the game gets too easy and there is no challenge anymore. That's my way of extending the stone age.

You must have changed  most of those recipes so they don't require smooth stone and planks, apparently?  That milk requirement could be a pretty severe stumbling block in many cases.  I applaud the notion though.   I think it's a good idea to have the player need a bit more stone age experience, but if it were going to be in base TFC2, it'd be nice if it were incorporated into the tech progression so that it was more organic, rather than an artificial milestones.  And I think making the crafting grid basically obsolete would be a step in the wrong direction.  I think you could keep both the crafting grid, and ladders, as milestones.

 

This could be firstly done by making the crafting grid require, say, four pieces of leather.  Leather is entirely obtainable within a 2x2 crafting scenario.  The flux stone could be an obstacle though.  An alternate could be provided in the form of pitkilning a vessel of something to get flux.  Maybe bones combined with small amounts of one or two other minerals.  Though I'm not sure the pitkilning mechanic as it is recognizes anything other than ores.    But requiring leather for the grid provides a milestone that is obtainable, but not super-easy, and is separated from obtaining a saw. 

 

Then, the player has their grid, and you could change the ladder recipe to require plank side-rails (6 planks, two sticks).  Due to how many ladders one needs to go deep mining, making primitive planks could be a very slow way to get enough ladders.  In that way, in combination with support beams, the saw could still be an attractive first tool choice.  Especially if some recipes - chest, door - require a saw as part of the recipe.

 

The obtaining of metal tools could be required to be after the crafting grid, by divorcing metal casting from pit kilns, and requiring a clay oven that is assembled using clay bricks (requires grid).  This may or may not require mortar as the binder, depending on if flux is desired as a requirement.  Otherwise maybe just sand.  This could be a mere assemblage of brick blocks, or a lone process block.  Or both, like the bloomery/BF.  But it only does 1 thing at a time, so pit kilns are still good for multiple vessels etc (though maybe further combinations of process blocks yields an oven with more capacity)    It would probably be good if pitkilns could still be used for at least some non-tool metals.

 

In this way, the player would first have to obtain their grid, via leather (or whatever) and then they have to construct this clay oven to fire up a pot of tool metal.   As it stands, you can get lucky and find enough ores to make your first metal tool within the first couple days.  I think that's not entirely uncommon, though I may be wrong as I've not done a lot of worlds. 

By requiring leather for the crafting grid, I think on average it will take AT LEAST that long just to get the grid.  You have to find the animals, fire up probably three large clay vessels, soak the hide in limewater, freshwater, and tannin.  That's 32 hours just for the processes, not inclusive of the finding of the materials.    Depending on animal/flux scarcity, possibly much longer.  

Then, the construction of the brick oven would also take awhile, due to the large number of bricks and logs required (logs for the pit kilns).  Brick blocks could also have an architectural utility, btw.  I'd guess that in an ideal start you'd probably take 4-5 days at bare minimum to get the first metal tool.  And that's assuming animals and flux and a tannin-kosher wood and the surface metals are all at start.   It'd probably take much longer, oftentimes.     But it would be organic to the tech progression, rather than artificial achievements. 

 

And I'm not trying to dig on what you've got going Tony, you're working with the game as it sits. I'm musing on how things could be in TFC2, if the goal is to prolong the stone age, and allow a 3x3 grid without requiring metal tools. 

Edited by Darmo
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For many year I was a history teacher, and it always bugged me how fast someone cast away in a strange world can go from having nothing to full high tier metals. I love this mod, but the thing I love most about it is how it started by trying to be more realistic.

In my mind if we base survival in real life and then notch it down just enough to be a playable game, we will have balance. Life is balanced.

I do not like the idea of limiting progression by denying the crafting grid, because it limits the number of recipes you can create.

Stone age people build the Stone henge.

They had ropes, ladders, agriculture, animal husbandry, carts and wagons, doors, chests, wood planks and wood houses.

The lack of metal did not made survival impossible, (We would not be here if that was the case ) It just made life harder.

As soon as metal tools were available humans started using, because they were so much better. I think the same principle could be used in game.

If someone is using stone tools after they have access to metal is because the mod is not properly balanced.

One example is stone shovels, The ratio time/effort/benefit is not enough for some people to justify making metal shovels.

Since stone age people were obviously able to dig holes in the ground, my point is that instead on making something impossible before the advent of metals we should just make then harder, 

Using stone tools should take more time for the same work and use more energy, translated in making you hungry faster. If we had fatigue in the mod it should be the case that it would make you tired faster.

I think if the difference between a stone tool and a metal tool was like that, no one would still be using stone tools after they had access to metal.

Now Terrafirmacraft is still a mod for Minecraft, and Minecraft is a game about building with colored Blocks. 

2 ways to play: Creative, instant access to all blocks. Survival, you have to work to obtain the blocks.

If we limit the access to those blocks to only available after metal, that would be reason enough for people to get metals.

For example all stone blocks should only be available after metal. Also planks that I see as refined wood.

In my New server, even though people have access to the crafting grid and lumber from the start, they do not have access to planks.

Is not perfect, but I am no coder and am just tweaking the mod with basic tools. There is room for improvement though, and I like some of your ideas.

I would really appreciate if you come to our forum and participate in the discussion.


BTW everyone should watch this video, is amazing.

Edited by TonyLiberatto
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Sorry, I got lazy and was conflating lumber and planks in my terminology.  In my head it's 'planks' and 'plank blocks'.  I didn't really see this topic in my glance over your forums Tony, but  it's kind of more difficult to discuss in a useful fashion outside of the official game forum anyway unfortunately, as the possible solutions are far fewer without heavy duty coding involved.

 

I probably should not have drifted so far from the OP - there is, after all, already a topic for stone-age extension.  What I was mainly trying to get across was, in the base mod, changing the method and timing of obtaining lumber has a whole bunch of knock-on affects that need to be considered as well, if any sense of progression is to be maintained.   It's true that it would give people in copper-scarce areas a way to get a grid without a saw (which I think is what Walrus was looking for), but without other changes, the majority of times it will just be a quick way to a grid, and even quicker path to metal overall.  Panning already serves as a 'hard-way' to copper in copper scarce areas. 

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I'd have to see what the community thinks of this. This process is still very far from what it takes to create planks IRL. But it DOES move it away form being a crafting grid process which I DO like. Maybe not this specifically, but something like this might be good. I'm interested in hearing other thoughts on this.

I fully support a change to move crafting from the player's crafting grid. However, I believe that there should be a progression from primitive methods to advanced processes to both give a benefit to advancing through tiers (thus making a ladder to late-game) and adding more content to the game overall.

A simple method would be like what is described here, using a saw to split a log into a small number of planks. 

If mechanical means are added into the game at some point, this could be expanded to allow machines to do this process more efficiently, yielding more planks per log, at the expense of power and resources

It would finally be something for players to look forward to, instead of just attaining red/blue steel, and allow for more things to make

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I fully support a change to move crafting from the player's crafting grid. However, I believe that there should be a progression from primitive methods to advanced processes to both give a benefit to advancing through tiers (thus making a ladder to late-game) and adding more content to the game overall.

A simple method would be like what is described here, using a saw to split a log into a small number of planks. 

If mechanical means are added into the game at some point, this could be expanded to allow machines to do this process more efficiently, yielding more planks per log, at the expense of power and resources

It would finally be something for players to look forward to, instead of just attaining red/blue steel, and allow for more things to make

I like this.

I just want to point that log chopping for firewood is completely different animal then making planks for construction. 

primitive people always used the wedge to part long logs. 

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I like this.

I just want to point that log chopping for firewood is completely different animal then making planks for construction. 

primitive people always used the wedge to part long logs. 

Yes, but to fit the theme of the game, there has to be some flexibility to items. Of course, firewood would be a neat mechanic, if it burns better than regular logs. Having early access to lumber would change the pace of the game, but not by much. It would just allow the player access to the 3x3 crafting grid before metal tools, which isn't much of a difference

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Additionally, when you cut down a tree with an axe that doesn't have enough durability to cut down the full height of the tree, rather then leaving an ugly stump that is four meters tall, you could instead drop wood rubble for every bit of wood you didn't have enough durability to process properly on the site.

 

I actually really like something this.

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Tree's already slowly delete themselves if there aren't any blocks supporting it, because floating trees are ugly. They just don't drop any logs when they disappear that way.

 

Edit: Your argument for putting thought into it also really doesn't work, because you wouldn't really care at all about the trunk itself, only how much it branches up top. Otherwise it's fairly simple math that shows that chopping down a 4x4 takes exactly the same amount of effort as a 1x1, because it's always breaking one log block to get all the logs above it. So a 4x4 tree that's 10 blocks tall, you break 4 logs and get 40 logs. For 4 1x1 trees that are 10 blocks tall, you break 4 logs and get 40 logs.

 

Fair point regarding the overall effort, but I thought the benefit of this would rather be that you only get the whole tree after going through all 4 logs at the base. Same overall effort but different experience. You'd have to wait longer for the pay off. It would feel a bit more epic.

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If we are talking about lumber being smooth, then surely we'd need a plane tool as well? What about: axe breaks placed logs into sticks, saw breaks placed logs into rough lumber (with limited uses perhaps, such as nothing requiring tight joins like barrels and doors etc) and plane refines rough lumber into smooth planks, which can be used to make barrels, chests, etc.

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Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): yes
Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted.

So, we have all these different types of trees. different colors and possibly qualities in TFC2. Well we have all these different woods and really nothing to do with them outside planks and Logs. TFC1 used to have a "quality" to different trees. some trees had a better Charcoal output than others. To my knowledge that's mostly gone now. so what do we do with this excess wood or colors we like? Carpentry! Unless you play on a TFC server with Bibliocraft you are really limited to what you can use excess/Favorite woods for. Basically you're choosing the color of you house if you build with planks. even stone has more uses than Wood. 

 

So why do we not add in carpentry to TFC2? we can have a small array of furniture. tables, chairs, ect. other things could be made by carpenters as well but let's get to the Idea for use.

 

How do we do this? well my thoughts are we bring our log to the sawmill to make planks. earlier versions for low quality woods could be a handsaw. now we have X planks and we bring those to the Carpenter's workbench, choose a recipe and then have a similar crafting gui as the anvil. the tool is the Chisel and maybe a plainer. now the wood quality can add a variable to the finished product. we end up with a simple wooden item or a frame for a more luxurious version. any skilled carpenter can make a wooden chair. the Pros take cushioning and leather from their respected professions to make a softer chair. 

 

If Staves, Wands or such are implemented. Carpenters can make those easily. take a stick to the workbench and you can make a wand shaft, possibly from bone but thats a little different. a log could be made into the staff shaft. this staff shaft could also be used by a bowyer to make bows. sticks could also be used to make arrow shafts. all done by our friendly Carpenter.

 

The main focus of this suggestion thread is handling wood more carpentry than logging but, a simple logging skill could be implemented. the skill elvel just determines axe degradation(based on current TFC1 information) tools may be completely different in TFC2 but having a logging skill that helps preserve the Axe you use is not a bad thing. 

 

I would like to get some more discussion on this. I'm not very knowledgable with carpentry. my knowledge is all game based so someone with better knowedge could explain the process better and possibly give actual names for carpentry tools and/or workbenches.

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