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EERussianguy

Handling your wood, Carpentry and logging.

58 posts in this topic

The issue is kind of what are the actual game benefits to carpentry?  The amount of effort a player puts into the smithing system is clearly justified via increased durability and damage (through both tier and player skill) and some items requiring higher tier metals to make at all (mine carts, mine tracks, hoppers).

 

You could make a system where the player can make furniture, and have it be higher quality, but what purpose will that serve?  If there are merchants the player could sell them for more money.  Carpentry for magic staves or wands wouldn't really be my first choice for obtaining those things, personally, but it's an option.   A bed could perhaps affect hp gain on sleeping or something.  Or the chance of actually sleeping the night away.  Higher quality chests could have bonus slots perhaps.  Or weight capacity, if they will have one.  Better barrels = more capacity, or lower weight?  Better support beams support farther?  Most of these kind of strain the logic, but if you're going to try to make carpentry into a smith-like trade, it's going to need to have defined, very desirable benefits I think.  Not just the pride of a chair having "excellent" tagged onto the front of it.

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The issue is kind of what are the actual game benefits to carpentry?  The amount of effort a player puts into the smithing system is clearly justified via increased durability and damage (through both tier and player skill) and some items requiring higher tier metals to make at all (mine carts, mine tracks, hoppers).

 

You could make a system where the player can make furniture, and have it be higher quality, but what purpose will that serve?  If there are merchants the player could sell them for more money.  Carpentry for magic staves or wands wouldn't really be my first choice for obtaining those things, personally, but it's an option.   A bed could perhaps affect hp gain on sleeping or something.  Or the chance of actually sleeping the night away.  Higher quality chests could have bonus slots perhaps.  Or weight capacity, if they will have one.  Better barrels = more capacity, or lower weight?  Better support beams support farther?  Most of these kind of strain the logic, but if you're going to try to make carpentry into a smith-like trade, it's going to need to have defined, very desirable benefits I think.  Not just the pride of a chair having "excellent" tagged onto the front of it.

 

I understand where you're coming from. And i agree, this was something i didn't consider and why more voices would be able to refine this. Furniture was just my example. and TBH are you going to tell me that after you hit a progression point you're happy with at the moment you don't want to have a "pretty home". I currently have a tavern on a server. its bland and the chisel mechanic is tedious and IMO boring. it can really have some great results but not everyone can be a master with the chisel. and since the mechanic that allowed you to copy the chiseled item as a blueprint. well there is no way to mass produce chiseled items anymore. Not to mention chiseled blocks are not fuctional. the pretty chair would be functional, you could sit in it instead of looking at it. BiblioCraft is one of my go to mods in MC. once i hit a certain point i like to take a break hang out and meet people. having a place to do so in your town/community if not unheard of. and RPers will RP they want a tavern where they can sit and drink and get a meal before continuing on. furniture would have a purpose i guarantee it. Maybe not with a hermit player that like the "do it all myself" play style, but the suggestions you made were great. the practical things involving barrels, chests and maybe a sleeping bonus. Furniture would get used, and it doesn't have to have quality on it. But it would get used. Bibliocraft makes its way into a lot of mod packs.

 

Furniture will get used i guarantee it. not to mention maybe instead of wasting the good wood on chairs so you can level carpentry. make low quality chairs. Sell them off to players that will be personalizing their homes. you have XP from chairs so now you can make better barrels, chests, ect. with your increased skill level and better materials. 

 

I love BiblioCraft, I get chairs, alternative storage(potion rack for instance), ect. its sad that the server i'm on doesn't have it. 

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As far as furniture just for looks, I agree it'd be great, sure.  Historically, based on responses to past threads, there has been a reluctance on the part of the devs to add things that are just 'for looks'.  In part to keep the number of block ids down I think.    I don't know if that will change with TFC2 or not, given that the nature of 1.8 seems like it's going to explode the number of ids regardless.   But if the items are just for looks, I'm not sure why there'd need to be a smith-level minigame, as opposed to just a variety of crafting recipes that use normal lumber.  At some point if there were enough options it might require it's own gui, due to the limits of the 3x3 grid (if we even have a 3x3 grid in TFC2). 

 

PS - I don't think you have to worry about chiseling, last we heard, it was perhaps a possbility, but very low on the priority list.

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When I think about carpentry in tfc or tfc2 terms, I have in mind a actual mechanic, like smithery but different.

Examples of things that could be made using carpentry mechanics.

Use water vapor and straightener tools to make straight spears.

Same to make snow shoes.

Bows would need to be carved and a mini game where you press the mouse for a certain time and let go to remove chunks of the wood, the secret is to make both sides of the bow the same.

The possibilities are infinite and in the end carpentry could be a part of the mod as big as smithery.  

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A solution to the balance problem would be to add tree roots that take a long time to break 

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Improvements on my previous ideas based on new ideas

Tree Felling

Spoiler

When a tree is cut down instead of logs item entities falling they turn into “log rubble” that behaves like sand. They would fall, smash things under them, form piles, etc. They would also rot over time if left as mentioned here. To get logs from these “log rubble” piles one would use an axe or a saw to break them. Axes will have the two bar system mentioned here. The benefit of using a saw is the player has a chance of getting a bonus log from the “log rubble” (kinda like fortune enchantment). This simulates having to cut up a tree after it has fallen.

 

Skill level

Spoiler

Each time a person does something with wood it increases their carpenter skill. This skill can decrease the time it takes to cut down trees and “log rubble” piles. It also determines drop chance and what recipes are available to someone. The recipes unlocked at each sequential skill level is as follows:

Crude items not requiring hinges, precision, or hoops such as fences, planks, table, and bed frame

Fine(dowel, wedge, resin unlocked) items that only need wood such as loom, tool rack, ladder, and chairs.

Advanced(hinges unlocked) items not requiring precision or hoops such as doors, fence gates, and chests

Masterful(hoops unlocked) items includes wooden buckets, and barrels.

The order of this is historical accuracy to a point and to encourage people utilize pots and piles for storage by delaying chests and barrels. I think there should be clay buckets that break like clay jugs and wooden buckets be a solution that takes more to get do but doesn't eventually break. Another things is it encourages a different play style when you don't have immediate access to doors, for instance ladders used before hinges. People got into their house by placing two ladders. One to get up on the roof and one to get down into the building through a hole in the roof.

 

Log Hewing and Refining

Spoiler

Once logs have been recovered from the “log rubble” they are and up to four can be carried in the back slot. Logs can also be placed on the ground and hewn by right clicking with a stone adze or metal axe. This removes all the bark on the log transforming the log into timber. This can be picked up with a bare hand and it’ll go into the back slot and stack up to 8. 

Timber is all well and good but planks requires more thought and specialized tools(progression reasons). To do this a sawhorse is needed. Craft a timber and yarn to make a sawhorse. In order for a sawhorse to work it must be next to either another sawhorse or a carpenter workbench. The sawhorse can be used to process logs into timber, timber into planks, and planks into sticks. 

The sawhorse interface when open, has a spots for wood input, output, chalk/dye, axe/saw, and adze/wood plane and a meter with different ranges. There is a button below the chalk/dye, axe/saw, and adze/wood plane called mark, cut, and plane respectively. When wood is put in the wood slot the mark button can be pressed which will consume the wood, use some of the chalk/dye, and start to fill up the meter. To continue filling up the meter keep pressing cut which also decreases the axe/saw’s durability with each press. When nearly done the plane button is to be pressed which will fill up the meter some more, decrease the durability of the wood plane, and the product will appear in the output slot. The goal is to get the meter within the target range and how close the meter is changes the amount of product generated which can range from 1 to 4. The difficulty is that each button fills the meter a random amount that falls within a range. The range narrows as the players carpenter skill increases allowing for more precise targeting. An axe also produces a much larger range than a saw, same with adze and wood plane, that doesn’t decrease much with skill.

This system is similar to blacksmithing in TFC1 and I believe to be a fun way to add some skill into the carpentry profession. The benefit of allowing an axe and an adze is it allows players to make make planks and timber in the stone age. The need for saw and wood plane to greatly narrow the range is a reflection on how much better those tools are and helps with a sense of progression that is reinforced with the skill also narrowing due to skill. This can become boring come end game which is why I would allow the creation of a sawmill that automates this at great cost needing endgame items such as a saw blade dropped by a boss of the 5th set of islands out.

 

Moisture(Hard Mode either optional or not implemented)

Spoiler

Wood products have three stages. Soaked, wet, and dry. Soaking wood products can be achieved by putting them in water. Wood will dry as long as it is in a stacked wood pile, isn’t touching dirt, and isn’t being rained on. The moisture in the air can make drying times vary. Wood products will keep the moisture content of the wood they were made of. As wood products go through the process of drying they have a chance of warping at each stage. Warped wood doesn’t work in crafting recipes but warped wood can be processed into smaller wood to make them straight again. Wet or soaked wood can also not be used in the final stages of making a product(technical and gameplay reasons) which includes charcoal or being burned. All products processed in the saw horse retain their moisture level. Therefore it is best to dry out wood before processing. This would delay people from getting immediate benefits of wood and require forethought and planning as well as create a need to build shelters for your wood.

 

Coopering

Spoiler

To make barrels actually takes a lot. Before barrel everything was transported in clay pots sealed with wax. Barrels were a revolution requiring knowledge of advanced carpentry and blacksmithing. It took much experimentation and crafting of specialized tools. I propose the following stages. During each stage items will be marked with a (B) or (C) meaning made by blasksmith or carpenter respectively.


Stage one

Spoiler

To get a stage one barrel a chime hoop(B) is placed down, twelve staves(C) are added to it, and then a riveted hoop(B) is added last all using right click. Breaking that with a hammer completes it creating a stage one barrel.

Stage two

Spoiler

Stage two requires a charring station which is made with a rope, a wench(C), and a steamer top(B) and bottom(B). The charring station has a several gauges; Temperature, water level, stiffness, progression, fuel, char. There is a fuel slot, stage one input slot, wet button, wench button, stage two output slot. To use the charring station add fuel, a stage one barrel, and water is optional. As the temperature increases the char gauge will increase and the stiffness gauge decrease. The char gauge can be slowed by periodically pressing the wet button that will decrease the water level gauge. As the stiffness gauge decreases, the wench button can be pressed to increase the progress bar and increase the stiffness bar again. Wench too much too quickly or allow the char gauge to fill up and the stage one barrel will be destroyed. Keep pressing the wench button until the progress is complete to get a stage two barrel.

Stage three

Spoiler

A stage three barrel is made by placing another chime hoop down, then adding the stage two barrel, and lastly a riveted hoop. Break with a hammer and it’ll turn into a stage four barrel.

Final stage

Spoiler

To get progress the barrel to stage four, a berth is needed. A berth is made with by crafting a log, with a coopers tool set(B). It has three input slots for a stage three barrel slot, barrel cap(C) slots, and riveted hoops slot. It has two output slots, one for the finished barrel and the other for chime hoops.There is five buttons; smooth, slot, hammer, cap, drill. The progress bar will fill up and stop requiring the right action be pressed to continue. The order is smooth, smooth, hammer, slot, cap, hammer, drill, smooth, hammer, slot, cap, hammer. Each time the hammer button is pressed it consumes a riveted hoop and each time the cap button is pressed it consumes a barrel cap.

The tastes of things stored in barrel may be effected by  wood used and char amount.
 

Edited by Stroam
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Tree Felling - like it.  You're saying the existing living tree logs turn into rubble in place?  not only trunk, but also the branches up in the air? So the player has to be careful where they stand lest they be hit with falling tree rubble? 

Skill level - Not sure adding skill level into the time-to-mine equation is a good idea.  It's already a small enough difference just using metal tiers.   I don't like the idea of tool racks being tier 2.  Not sure about ladders either, but that might depend on how ores and mining shake out.  Doors and gates as tier 3 might be excessive.  Is it assumed then that the player will just have to use ladders or palisades with jump-gaps, or dirt blocks, until then?  In that context one of the best loot items from early game dungeons will be doors (unless they don't have them).   Making wooden buckets masterful might be a bit of a stretch.  How about clay buckets randomly break, wood buckets have durability (they rot), and metal buckets last forever (or have higher durability, at least)?  From a game balance perspective I'm not clear what the advantage of wood barrels is that makes them advanced tier, aside from a presumably slightly larger inventory.

Log Refining - an interesting system, but what can one do with timber aside from making sawhorses?  Is it purely just a limited-use intermediate step?  Can one make ladders or fences with it?

Moisture - though it appeals to my detailed side, seems like a bit too much probably. 

Coopering - That's a lot of steps.  As mentioned above, what advantages are you envisioning for barrels, vs large vessels?  In TFC1 is was 33% more inventory, or double the liquid capacity.  I do like the idea of barrels being harder to come by, just not sure THAT much harder...

So in general, skill benefits the player in terms of getting higher lumber yield?  It doesn't affect finished product?  Also tree felling speed as suggested, but I'm not sure that's a good idea, unless felling times go up quite a bit.   Overall I like giving a greater sense of accomplishment and process.  I do think it would result in some of these items becoming important dungeon loot, although they'd probably be very heavy, so not very lootable.  I could easily forsee the basic result being that the player just moves into dungeons for the early game, for easy access to doors and chests.  Unless dungeons have special rules where mobs will spawn in them no matter light level or player time spent.  Or early game dungeons don't have doors and chests.  But that's getting OT.  

Personally I'd like to see more item-level benefits to the skill, so it's not all so predicated on time and output.  I've been mulling a lot of container ideas so maybe I'll make a post on that.

Edited by Darmo
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Correct on the "log rubble"

I stand by the tiers for door, gates and barrels. Hinges not only were developed later in history but it incentives interesting builds. In the past people either just had empty door ways, heavy objects over the doors, or a ladder system until the iron age. It just means the entrance to places will require a little more thought which will add to the diversity. With doors are available early in the game there is no puzzle on how to design your entrance and everyone ends up using doors.

Barrels being so high tech is a reflection on how important transportation is. The benefit of barrels is the ratio of product to barrel weight is higher. Also a really heavy barrel that a person can't pick up can still be rolled. For moving goods long distances or storing vast amounts of something, nothing beats barrels which is why in the medieval ages it was maritime law that you couldn't set sail without a cooper on board. Plus it makes barrels an awesome find. I also don't think 4 stages is too much to finish a barrel as it each step combines multiple steps that it takes to make barrels. I also rather like the charring mini game I thought of as it seems like you wouldn't quickly get bored of it if you had to do it 15 times in a row and allows one to change the char level which is important for making spirits. The last step combines a lot of the steps to keep the steps down and abstracts the tools. Even though it does represent a majority of the time in actual barrel I couldn't think of a fun mini game for it. It just needs a way to consume all the inputs and output the two different outputs. Steps one and 3 are to give more uses for the placing things down mechanic that is used for making pit kilns. 

Wood buckets I believe shouldn't be included and that we should be using clay buckets.

Timber would be usable for some of the crude items. 

Skill is used mainly for higher yield because wood items in general don't have something skill level can effect. So I'm applying it to anything it can effect such as speed, yield, and unlocking recipes. If wood items had durability I'd gladly would prefer skill change that instead of speed.

I think there should be something creative for a carpenter workbench on top of all of this. Just haven't had the inspiration for what that might be.

Edited by Stroam
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