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EERussianguy

Handling your wood, Carpentry and logging.

58 posts in this topic

I don't know what form logs will take in TFC 2, but I think it would make sense to chop logs into planks outside of the crafting grid. Considering that a mechanic like this will be necessary for game progression, I can safely assume that this suggestion is applicable.

 

They way I'd like to see log chopping work is as follows:

 

1. Place log facing vertically on the ground

 

2. Select chopping tool (axe, saw, whatever)

 

3. Hold right click for about 3 seconds. Particles come out the bottom and the log will begin to be cut down the middle. It would look similar to how chiseling blocks looks in TFC one.

 

4. The log splits into 2. The log pieces remain on the block you placed them on. At this point you can either remove them and have half-logs to use (works like half slabs) or keep chopping.

 

5. Move to an adjacent side of the block to where you were previously standing, and repeat step 3.

 

6. 4 Planks (8?) pop out, destroying the log.

 

This adds another dimension of realism to the game, and makes it actually take time to create planks. Having players use time to create planks doesn't make it more grindy, it just A: gives players something to do at night or B: makes players budget their time

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I'd have to see what the community thinks of this. This process is still very far from what it takes to create planks IRL. But it DOES move it away form being a crafting grid process which I DO like. Maybe not this specifically, but something like this might be good. I'm interested in hearing other thoughts on this.

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The idea would give access to plank blocks basically immediately from the start, right?  Which seems like it would mess up the sense of accomplishment and progression when you get your first saw, and can finally expand the crafting grid, plank blocks, and doors so that your temp shelters don't take forever to demolish.  You'd be able to expand your grid the first day. Unless it's made so that you can only do this with a metal axe, but then what is the saw used for?  The saw literally has one use right now afaik.

 

I'm not a fan of this idea, purely due to the large number of plank blocks needed if one wants to build a nice house, because the method described seems to me like it would increase the time required for that substantially.  Also, it's not a good representation of making lumber, it's a representation of making firewood.

 

As far as moving away from the crafting grid - what if instead of the stump-and-split idea, instead what the player does is place a number of logs end-to-end laying down (minimum of 3, max of say 8).  Then they use the saw and can just hold the use button on one of the horizontal logs.  Depending on how many there are, after a certain amount of time, they all pop off as planks.

 

This keeps the progression of needing a metal tool, keeps the saw having it's main use, and gets out of the crafting grid, but at the same time depending on how much time it takes to saw them up, I don't think it would increase the time required terribly much because it allows you to do multiple logs at once.

Edited by Darmo
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I actually like the idea of having the crafting grid on the start of the game.

I think metal tools and devices are supposed to make easy for the player to obtain blocks for construction. But it should not be impossible to survive before metal.

If you really want to keep barrels away from players that do not have metals, maybe an idea would be to require metal bands for barrels.

Doors could require metal hinges, the same for chests.

I think allowing the crafting grid in the start of the game open new possibilities for the Developers.

The realistic way that pre metallurgy men obtained planks was using wedges, not axes. The logs were positioned horizontally and using stone wedges and stone hamers they were able to keep dividing the logs until they had several planks from one log, they were peculiar in the sense that one side would be thinner than the other, but very useful, and pre-historic societies build houses and ships using this technique.

If you think about, the only difference between a stone axe and a metal one is in how fast the metal one works. The same principle applies to most things. To be able to get logs at a faster pace is reason enough for the player to want the metal axe.

Now, once we have metals it would make no sense in keep using wedges, so we should instead use a saw.

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If you think about, the only difference between a stone axe and a metal one is in how fast the metal one works. The same principle applies to most things. To be able to get logs at a faster pace is reason enough for the player to want the metal axe.Now, once we have metals it would make no sense in keep using wedges, so we should instead use a saw.

Real-life stone axes are more akin to a hammer then to a metal axe. I have a Native American stone axe artifact, and it's basically a sledge-hammer with a slightly sharper end. With stone axes, you're basically beating through the tree using blunt force. Whereas with a metal one, you're actually cutting it. Stone and metal axes are almost completely different tools. .

I don't know what form logs will take in TFC 2, but I think it would make sense to chop logs into planks outside of the crafting grid. Considering that a mechanic like this will be necessary for game progression, I can safely assume that this suggestion is applicable.They way I'd like to see log chopping work is as follows:1. Place log facing vertically on the ground2. Select chopping tool (axe, saw, whatever)3. Hold right click for about 3 seconds. Particles come out the bottom and the log will begin to be cut down the middle. It would look similar to how chiseling blocks looks in TFC one.4. The log splits into 2. The log pieces remain on the block you placed them on. At this point you can either remove them and have half-logs to use (works like half slabs) or keep chopping.5. Move to an adjacent side of the block to where you were previously standing, and repeat step 3.6. 4 Planks (8?) pop out, destroying the log.This adds another dimension of realism to the game, and makes it actually take time to create planks. Having players use time to create planks doesn't make it more grindy, it just A: gives players something to do at night or B: makes players budget their time

This a great idea. But, only saws should be used to obtain planks. We should keep that part. It's not extremely difficult to obtain enough copper to make a saw. Axes would be used to chop up logs into firewood, but you should not be able to get planks with axes, stone or metal.To speed this process up, players could build a sawmill later on, but this would likely be limited to late-middle game and onward. It would get overly grindy, doing this over and over agin to get enough planks to build your mansion (especially if you're using a lot of plank items for detail) considering you would only get about 8 planks each time.Example of a stone axe:

post-18216-0-92534600-1439582877_thumb.j

Edited by anonymous conservative
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I'd like to see better amount of planks with better tools. So if you just use a stone axe then you'd not get as much usable planks than sharper metal axes, and so on. But still, this is a great idea.

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Actually, this is an INCREDIBLE idea! You could use axes for firewood, saws for planks, and even make different shapes of planks! You could also make nails and bolts and such out of metal, along with bands! Oh! And, what if, you could look at a chest, then place the metal band with holes on it, then, pick up a nail, and hold it with one hand in the hole by holding the nail, pressing a certain key to move it to the other hand, then grab the hammer, then, right click on the chest to place the nail, then, left click to hammer it! Kinda like scraping the leather on a leather rack, in fact, that used to just be a crafting recipe with a knife and soaked hide, so, why not do that with these things?! As for the metal bands on barrels, you could do the two hand thing, then, hammer it on one spot to curve it, then move around the barrel, then, hammer it again to curve it again, and continue until the strip of metal is curved, then, do the same thing with the nails that I talked about earlier! You could even make it so that you can see yourself and interact with placing stuff in barrels and such, and actually do the same hammering action as the chest and the barrels, with the doors, and hammering on the lid to a barrel to seal it! Oh! And, you could make it so that you use this same two-handed action to cut up food, and interact with the salad and sandwich tables! You might just be able to eliminate the crafting interface completely! And, you could make the rock knapping be more controlled, like these other things! Ooh! And you could make it so that you could properly punch a mob! Like, punch in different directions, and punching different parts does different things, along with weapons! Like chopping their head off would kill the mob and you, and an arrow in the head, or the back of the neck, would be lethal! And, you would be able to interact with berry bushes and fruit trees to pick their fruit! And You could see the tree's trunk having marks in it when you're felling it! And, you would have to chop the tree up once it fell! As for metallurgy, yo would be able to see the ingots on top of a forge, and see the coals brighten when you use a bellows, and you would have to wear a mask during smithing and you would have to use tongs to pick up the ingots and you would actually see the different parts of the anvil and see the ingot slowly taking the shape of the desired tool, weapon, or armor piece, and you would be able to see yourself sprinkling on the flux! And, you would be able to see items in the firepit and see the meat cooking and sizzling! Ooh, the possibilities are endless!

You being the developers, of course!

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Real-life stone axes are more akin to a hammer then to a metal axe. I have a Native American stone axe artifact, and it's basically a sledge-hammer with a slightly sharper end. With stone axes, you're basically beating through the tree using blunt force. Whereas with a metal one, you're actually cutting it. Stone and metal axes are almost completely different tools. 

Not to argue with you or anything, but just because you have something that's old, and mind you, weathered doesn't mean that's how it always looked.. I'm a knapper myself... I'm also a wood worker using a combination of traditional and new tools [because power tools just make things more EFFICIENT. as such the meaning of a tool to begin with.] but I could show you how to split a log with nothing but a rock, and some sticks... I'll even make a you tube video. 

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Historically wedges were the tools used to split logs into planks, but yes they were stone tools and very efficient.

Cave man also used stone drills and made holes on the planks and tie then together with plant fiber or  leather  strips to create a whole bunch of things, like houses made of planks, and ships, and chests.

They also had enough knowledge to use water vapor to bend wood to make it either straight for a spear or javelin, or to bend it to make snow shoes and even make a box with all the sides made of one plank.

those boxes were so perfectly sealed that they were used to store honey and other liquids.

It really bothers me when people think that just because people had no metallurgy that they also had no intelligence or creativity.

The modern man is not smarter then his ancestors, we just have access to more knowledge. We are still the same species.

Read Here about this 7,000 year old wood well made with stone tools.

Posted Image

Read Here about a Neolithic wood house build circa 2500 BC

A Stone age tool box Here

Watch this video to see stone age tools in use.

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Not to argue with you or anything, but just because you have something that's old, and mind you, weathered doesn't mean that's how it always looked..

That picture isn't mine, it's off google images. Mine's in the cellar, and I didn't feel like lifting up that heavy door just to snap a picture of it. Buts it's very smooth, not weathered at all. And solid rocks like that dont whether enough over only a few hundred years (especially if they're buried, in which case they hardly whether at all) to significantly alter their appearance. That axe head probably looks almost exactly the same now as it did I when it was used. But it's hard to imagine one making planks smooth enough to make a barrel or door with using a tool like that. I'm not disputing the fact that Stone Age people made planks. But I'm sure the ability to make planks with a stone axe in TFC was removed for a very good reason.
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But why cant we agree that the tool used to make planks was wedges and not axe?

It was still a stone tool, just not an axe.

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I wouldn't mind getting planks with stone tools as long as there is still an incentive go make metal saw and axes later.

I think it would be reasonable if it took 30 seconds to work a log with a stone tool to get 1-2 plank.

Not efficient at all, but you could still get a boat early on without metalurgy.

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I think it would be reasonable if it took 30 seconds to work a log with a stone tool to get 1-2 plank.Not efficient at all, but you could still get a boat early on without metalurgy.

That's a decent idea, and would fill a valid need - early boat.  But I still think it'd be best to keep the player from getting planks with stone-age tools.  A door only takes six planks and make shelter SO much more efficient.  I'd never build another large clay vessel if I could get stone-age planks.  Barrels are way better.    

 

To go back to my earlier idea, how about if the player places 3 logs in a line on the ground with the ends facing each other (not up) they can then whale away at it with a fresh stone axe, and it'll take a long time and use the entire axe, but at the end they get a boat out of it.  This would basically simulate hollowing out a log canoe.  Allows early game boat, but still keeps the saw as a huge step up in technology.

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My idea was to let the player make lumber with stone tools, but require metal for the specific things that we want to be latter in the technology tree.

So for example a barrel would require metal bands.

Doors would require metal hinges.

I would go as far as requiring nails ( in inventory) and a hammer (in the hotbar) to be able to place planks. It would make believable how they defy gravity.

As for the boat, I like the idea, although dugout canoes were made using a tool more resembling a Hoe then an axe, controlled fire was used to make the process easier, but I don't think we need to go to such extremes.

In essence I like the idea of making a canoe in a more realistic way and also in stone age. I hope it gets included.

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My impression right now is that the devs don't want to get quite so granular as nails, hinges, bands, etc.  They seem to keep things pretty broad-brush right now.  Once you start adding that detail stuff, it could be slippery slope. 

 

It'd be interesting though, in that right now, I think everyone uses their first 100 units of metal to make a saw. If hardware were added, it may be that the first tool would be a pick to get more metal - because lumber would be useless without it - and then people would actually use their stone anvil for making some copper/bronze hardware to make doors, chests, barrels, and plank blocks, as opposed to using the stone anvil to weld up their copper double-ingots and then getting rid of it.  People would actually do some smithing on early anvils, which right now I think never happens except for armor, and that's probably always bronze.  

 

People would have to get by longer with crude shelter methods.  Which might make it more worthwhile to come up with other options.  They'd also probably have to make a lot more large clay vessels, until they could get chests. I feel like on chests you'd probably have too much resistance, as right now I think most people use TONS of chests to organize all their hoarding of materials.  It'd be kind of rough if that got worse.  But it'd definitely make each door, chest, and barrel more valuable.  You'd need to provide greater returns on higher level materials, otherwise people would never make hardware from anything other than copper and bronze probably. 

 

And ya, I doubt the devs want to add an adze just to make canoes.  Best to keep it generalized in the stone age probably.

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My impression right now is that the devs don't want to get quite so granular as nails, hinges, bands, etc.  They seem to keep things pretty broad-brush right now.  Once you start adding that detail stuff, it could be slippery slope. 

 

It'd be interesting though, in that right now, I think everyone uses their first 100 units of metal to make a saw. If hardware were added, it may be that the first tool would be a pick to get more metal - because lumber would be useless without it - and then people would actually use their stone anvil for making some copper/bronze hardware to make doors, chests, barrels, and plank blocks, as opposed to using the stone anvil to weld up their copper double-ingots and then getting rid of it.  People would actually do some smithing on early anvils, which right now I think never happens except for armor, and that's probably always bronze.  

 

People would have to get by longer with crude shelter methods.  Which might make it more worthwhile to come up with other options.  They'd also probably have to make a lot more large clay vessels, until they could get chests. I feel like on chests you'd probably have too much resistance, as right now I think most people use TONS of chests to organize all their hoarding of materials.  It'd be kind of rough if that got worse.  But it'd definitely make each door, chest, and barrel more valuable.  You'd need to provide greater returns on higher level materials, otherwise people would never make hardware from anything other than copper and bronze probably. 

 

And ya, I doubt the devs want to add an adze just to make canoes.  Best to keep it generalized in the stone age probably.

 

All that and more.

I would like the mod to be longer.

I know there would still be people that would be able to rush, but for most people it would be a struggle to survive and advance.

The motto that first got me to play this mod.

"Survival as it should have been"

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My impression right now is that the devs don't want to get quite so granular as nails, hinges, bands, etc.  They seem to keep things pretty broad-brush right now.  Once you start adding that detail stuff, it could be slippery slope. 

 

It'd be interesting though, in that right now, I think everyone uses their first 100 units of metal to make a saw. If hardware were added, it may be that the first tool would be a pick to get more metal - because lumber would be useless without it - and then people would actually use their stone anvil for making some copper/bronze hardware to make doors, chests, barrels, and plank blocks, as opposed to using the stone anvil to weld up their copper double-ingots and then getting rid of it.  People would actually do some smithing on early anvils, which right now I think never happens except for armor, and that's probably always bronze.  

 

People would have to get by longer with crude shelter methods.  Which might make it more worthwhile to come up with other options.  They'd also probably have to make a lot more large clay vessels, until they could get chests. I feel like on chests you'd probably have too much resistance, as right now I think most people use TONS of chests to organize all their hoarding of materials.  It'd be kind of rough if that got worse.  But it'd definitely make each door, chest, and barrel more valuable.  You'd need to provide greater returns on higher level materials, otherwise people would never make hardware from anything other than copper and bronze probably. 

 

And ya, I doubt the devs want to add an adze just to make canoes.  Best to keep it generalized in the stone age probably.

 

All that and more.

I would like the mod to be longer.

I know there would still be people that would be able to rush, but for most people it would be a struggle to survive and advance.

The motto that first got me to play this mod.

"Survival as it should have been"

 

That's weird, I always go pick, pro pick, saw

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That's weird, I always go pick, pro pick, saw

Definitely good if you know of some exposed copper, or just-under-the-dirt copper. Without ladders and support beams its kind of difficult to do any deep mining.

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That's the point for me. As soon as we spawn in a new world we have to rush for metals, because otherwise survival is too difficult and even storage becomes a problem, I am really glad for the Large vessel. But there are certain items that should be available in stone age, and they aren't just because of the crafting grid.

Ladders were made using sticks and fibers. Why would I need metal tools for that?

Once you have red/blue armor and tools nothing can kill you, so that's when most players decide to create a new world and start over. My idea is to make it so it takes longer to get there.

It is so unbelievable, that you will spawn naked in a new world and in one week you will have metal tools.

I would want to make it more possible to build and survive in stone age, using materials and items that were used by neolithic people.

At the same time obtaining metal should be even harder. The nuggets found on surface should be like 1/10 of one unit. So you would need to find 1000 of the same metal to be able to make a pick. They would serve basically just to show where the metal is, so you know where to dig.

Ancient people used fire and water to break rocks so they could get to metal.

Not sure what would be the best approach as to how people would finally acquire enough metal to make their first tools. But I wanted it to be so hard that people would not be able to do it at least until the second year  in game. Ideally they would need to survive for 2 winters with no metal tools.

I see treads where people talk about they nice primitive settlement, and I cant understand, why bother, if it only takes one in game week to get to metal?

When I agree with this post about making it possible to make planks with stone age tools ( remember they were also made with bones as you see in the video ), is not about making it even easier and faster to get metals, it should only be done if accompanied by a restructuring of the game recipes and mechanics, so we keep the balance.

I just do not think the crafting grid should be the limiting factor. 

Metal tools make everything easy to do, but it was not impossible before. Stonehenge was build by people using stone tools, just think about. They actually had towns and agriculture and animals, all that in stone age.

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Hey Bioxx, if you are trying to remove the GUI function for crafting and things, you could take after bibliocraft, crafting pillars, and your tfc quern and make of so if you click a specific spot on a speficic block, you make things as if you were using a GUI. Though I don't honestly think EVERY GUI can be removed. Can you imagine the difficulty of anvil work w/o the GUI? XD

Edited by Mathias Ademar
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Hey Bioxx, if you are trying to remove the GUI function for crafting and things, you could take after bibliocraft, crafting pillars, and your tfc quern and make of so if you click a specific spot on a speficic block, you make things as if you were using a GUI. Though I don't honestly think EVERY GUI can be removed. Can you imagine the difficulty of anvil work w/o the GUI? XD

Never said I was planning on removing guis per se. But if an interesting way can be found to move some crafting recipes to an actual dedicated mechanic, I'm not opposed to hearing out the idea.

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I really love how Tinkers construct deals with smelting metals and pouring into molds and casts. I really think is a feature that we are missing in TFC.

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I personally really like the base idea that the op posted in terms of removing the GUI for making wood blocks into either smaller wood blocks for fires and early building materials or even some kind of stone wedge to create planks for building as well.

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I like this suggestion, as well.  I think that to differentiate between saw and axe, one could make the axe yield less planks than the saw.  The logic behind this would be that with the axe (which could serve as an abstraction of using a wedge... though axes can be used to make planks from logs!), the ability to make a good, relatively even plank would be dependent on the presence/absence of knots and irregularities in the log more so than making planks using a saw.  Saws can saw through irregularities while axes/wedges/whatever cannot split through irregularities.  I hope that makes sense.So, in game terms, perhaps we could have the really really old TFC1 idea of an axe making less planks from a log than a saw.  The saw would represent a large leap in efficiency of plank making.  IRL it was much more complicated than that... but whatever!ALSO to differentiate the saw from the axe, perhaps the saw should be able to make slabs from stone.Anyway... this is a tricky topic, since in reality there is a lot of redundancy between tools in terms of what they can do.  In fact, there is really nothing a saw can do that other tools can't, at least with regards to wood.

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