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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Bioxx

Food + Taste + Hunger

75 posts in this topic

All I really want to have in TFC2 is more cooking. Sandwitch and salad is not enough variety, I'd introduce cooking pot, you place on campfire, that requires you to make large batches of food at once from which you can dispence cooked dish to bottles/bowls/jars. Different dishes need different main/base ingridient and 3 slots for fillers, also during cooking player is required to tend the dish they are cooking from-time-to-time to not burn it. It'd give ability to make:

- stews - protein based, uses less water than soup 500mB/320oz, needs second to last attention,

- soups - veggie/fruit based, use most water out of 4; 1000mB/320oz, but pretty much cook by themslef

- creams - milk based; uses no water, very easy to burn, cooks quickest, but has increased decay rate compared to other food,

- jams - dedicated to fruit, have to use 3x as much sugar as fruit is used, takes 500mB of water per 320oz of output and has 90% decreased decay rate, but cooks longest; whole in-game day; and has to be tend most often. Jams can be used as fruit in rest of pot dishes, salads and sandwitches.

Maybe with ability to brew some (flavoured?) tea and coffee in pot.

 

The key thing is that there has to be incentive for players to actually make those things in order for us to spend the time creating them. Different things for just the sake of variety isn't a good enough reason to put the effort in.

 

I'd also like to point out that if you wanted jams to have a 90% decreased decay rate, you'd need a lot more sugar, and you'd have to make it take an extremely long time to create. Generally speaking, traditional jams are actually going to decay faster because of the high sugar content. The jam itself isn't what is preserving the fruit, it's the canning process, which is a modern technology. In order to get the sugar content up to a point where it inhibits bacterial growth you need to constantly watch the batch and continually add sugar over the timeframe of like a month.

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Different things for just the sake of variety isn't a good enough reason to put the effort in.

I don't want to risk ban or anything, but I just want to mention, that original; TFC1 has 17 types of wood, 8 types of fruit trees, 11 berry bushes, 13 vegetables, different 6 grains, also 13 types of useless gems in 4 equally useless qualities (and one less useless quality), 3 types of copper ore, 3 types of iron ore, 2 types of coal bearing minerals, 2 types of redstone bearing minerals and last, but not least 21 different stone types. Why have these things just for variety sake? Make just one of each, that's enough! So that's bit hypocritical to say about variety, just for variety sake. :V If I knew how to code I'd happily tag along to code it in.

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On the topic of jams, I believe it is the high sugar content that actually preserves the fruit, not the canning process itself.

 

Essentially the high sugar content in the jam draws out water in any the bacteria through osmosis, dehydrating them so they cannot multiply and cause decay. More info can be found on this site : http://www.sugar.org/all-about-sugar/sugar-in-jellies-and-preserves/.

 

If you have ever grown your own fruit/made your own jams you'll have seen this - if you pick fresh fruit it generally won't last very long, even in the fridge. Making jam takes around an hour, and can last for a good few months when kept in a cool place, even though it was never vacuum sealed in a jar.

 

In that sense I believe making jams would be a really good method of preserving fruit in TFC2. It would require at least an equal amount of sugar to make, and some kind of pot to cook it in, possibly over a campfire, as suggested above, or by using a different not-yet-implemented method of cooking. They could be stored in glass jars, topped with some kind of cloth/burlap, and tied up with wool yarn to make traditional jam jars.

 

It would also be nice to be able to store jars decoratively, on jam shelves or something similar, although I'm getting slightly off topic now..:P

 

Overall I really believe that jams would make a very effective, believable method of preserving fruit in TFC2, and would love to see it implemented at some point :)

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On the topic of jams, I believe it is the high sugar content that actually preserves the fruit, not the canning process itself.

 

Essentially the high sugar content in the jam draws out water in any the bacteria through osmosis, dehydrating them so they cannot multiply and cause decay. More info can be found on this site : http://www.sugar.org/all-about-sugar/sugar-in-jellies-and-preserves/.

 

If you have ever grown your own fruit/made your own jams you'll have seen this - if you pick fresh fruit it generally won't last very long, even in the fridge. Making jam takes around an hour, and can last for a good few months when kept in a cool place, even though it was never vacuum sealed in a jar.

 

From the link you provided:

 

 

Sugar prevents spoilage of jams, jellies, and preserves after the jar is opened. Properly prepared and packaged preserves and jellies are free from bacteria and yeast cells until the lid is opened and exposed to air. Once the jar is opened, sugar incapacitates any microorganisms by its ability to attract water.

 

snip snip snip

 

In jellies, jams and preserves, a concentrated sugar solution of at least 65% is necessary to perform this function. Since the sugar content naturally present in fruits and their juices is less than 65%, it is essential to add sugar to raise it to this concentration in jellies and preserves.

 

While this article says the sugar content naturally found is less than 65%, it doesn't state just how much less. Which is exactly why I stated above that the amount of sugar you need to add is fairly ridiculous.

 

As for your personal experiences with jam, realize that you are using modern pectins and if you aren't doing the canning process you are usually making a freezer jam. In those cases, once again it is not the sugar that is the primary source of preservation, it's the cold. Those jams also usually have some sort of acid component in them as well to help with preservation.

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Also from the link I provided:

 

Once the jar is opened, sugar incapacitates any microorganisms by its ability to attract water.

 

It genuinely is the high sugar content that acts as the main method of preservation in jams. Also when making jams at home there is no need to add pectins - they are contained naturally in the fruits. I have never used pectin when making jams at home, and follow a recipe similar to this : http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/simple_blackcurrant_jam_77904

 

Note that there is no mention of using any freezing method in this recipe, and the lemon juice is added for the acidity - which could also be included in any jam recipes in TFC2.

 

In terms of the percentages, usually when making jam you use equal amounts of fruit and sugar, as the fruits contain sugars naturally. In that sense you could think of it as 50% pure sugar + 15% fruit sugars (fructose)

 

I completely understand if jams are something you don't want to be added to TFC2, and would never try to force you to include something in your mod that you don't want. However there is no real reason to disregard jams as a method of preservation on the basis of believably alone. Jams have been used since the middle ages, with some evidence to suggest it was used in the ancient Roman times. 

 

As I said before though, it is yours and Bioxx's mod, and if you don't want to include it then that's fine. I just think it would make a very nice addition considering the changes to the food system :)

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One more thing I would like to add is the possibility of creating "meals that hate each other". For example, I love chocolate. And I love venisom. But Venisom with chocolate must be horriying. This may be however, a little bit too confusing.

 

A way I thought of keeping the taste profile of TFC1, but also adding more food, would be to separate this taste in two. For example: "Meal" taste in which there would be savory, salty, and bitter, and "dessert" taste, with sweet and sour. Some taste could overlap both categories (sour could be both part of the meal taste and the dessert taste)

For the player to feel satiated, he would have to eat a meal corresponding to his taste profile (meat, grain, vegetables) and then a dessert that also corresponds to the second taste profile (fruit, surgar,.. alcohol?). This would prevent strange sandwiches with fruit in them, in addition to enable the creation more different meals.

This would also mean that the player can simply make himself a sandwich, or munch a fruit, and eat "on the road", but restore less hunger and satiation, or eat at the table (ie: full meals that can't be carried, like roasts and fruit salads) and get the full benefits.

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Also I just thought about the fact that we have salt and sugar as taste modyfiers in TFC1,  but how about implementing spices in TFC2?

There could be herbs that could be grown as crops but have no nutritional value, and are used to add to a meal to slightly change its taste. Basil, garlic could change the sourness, rosemary the bitter, etc. Maybe one or two herbs per taste? They could be dried and not decay.

Eventually some of the herbs could have medicinal properties, if magic/brewry is added...

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My idea:

*1:Add two new tastes Spicy and Minty even though these aren't technically flavors I think it would help with believability.

2:Add a new tab to the players inventory called "taste preferences" or just "taste" or even "preferences" and this tab shows the player(s) what tastes he/she likes and dislikes.

3:Food is always the same taste for every player but the player may or may not like that taste.

4:When a player starts his/her world they may pick two tastes they like and two they dislike.

5:A player can eat food they like as much as they want (or at least until they're full.) they can eat food they dislike once then they can't eat it again until they either wait out a timer or clean there palette and they can eat food that they neither like not dislike three times before having to do the same thing.

*6:The cooking trade/skill now just allows the player to cook food with a better quality and if you're planning on adding more complex recipes cooking would allow the player to cook more complex recipes or cook with a less chance to burn the food. The cooking trade/skill as it is in tfc1 would be replaced with a new trade/skill called tasting. Novice level at tasting will give you a range of three different levels of that taste e.g.(slightly spicy, mildly spicy, spicy) every time you level up tasting it gets more specific until you know the exact numbers of each taste you like and dislike e.g.(spicy:20, 30)

7:Each time the player eats something he/her dislikes there is a small chance that it will become one of the foods he/her does like that small chance is increased by better quality food also every time the player eats something he/her does like it has a small chance to become a dislike that small chance is increased by low quality food also every time the player eats something that's neither a like or a dislike there's a small chance for it to become a like or a dislike.

if you go with my idea this * means it's optional.

I'd imagine that this would be really hard to code but I just wanted put it out there.

Also just wanted to say no matter what you put in tfc2 I'm going to play it

Edited by Wackypat
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 perhaps you could make it so that eating an apple would give a weak, stacking,
time-limited temporary debuff against eating more apples (stacking such that each additional apple makes the debuff
stronger up to a point), but rather than permanently tracking the last few items eaten, its similar to a potion effect in
that it wears off. 
so, you get tired of apple flavor for a little while, 
eating something different would hasten the loss of any already acquired taste boredom,
but it would also diminish over time. The favorite flavors / foods could play into this by reducing the amount of time, or
the debuff amount per stack for the favorite item, or both.

this would encourage more variety in a single meal, or short term series of meals without
conferring an immersion breaking and slightly annoying permanence to the food eating cycle.


or instead of a potion effect, a player could have flavor tolerance values similar to the
nutrition bars, but instead of them draining over time, they refill over time and get diminished when eating things. 
so if you've been eating a lot of veggies, but no meat, it would have an entirely full meat /
protein bar such that you've got a bit of a craving for that kind of item. Preferred flavors would refill the fastest.

There might need to be some fine tuning on the speed these bars decrease vs how much "food"  the player is losing over time, to make sure you don't wind up with so much stacking flavor boredom that food loses the ability to nourish the player very much on a semi permanent basis. It needs to refresh fast enough to give the system a purpose rather than making it a useless burden.

Secondary effects like regen, or extra satiation could be conferred depending on how much craving value the player had for the flavors in a food when they ate it.

Perhaps if someone maintains a healthy diet long enough, and doesn't die, you could have a sort of long term health tracker and confer protective potion effect type stuff like strength or increased damage resistances. ( not necessarily required, its just a thought to give higher importance on long term survival AND healthy eating). I somewhat like how 7 days to die handles hp and health / stamina. People who die a lot might hate this idea though.

 

It would also be nice if player choice over the long term could have an effect on character preferences.

Even if the character starts out loving tomatoes and beef and hating pork and carrots, if they end up in a scenario where pork and carrots are plentiful and tomatoes and beef are extremely scarce or completely absent, the repeated experience of eating a food and it becoming familiar could slowly make the taste grow on them. 

Perhaps you could make it so it edges toward neutrality rather than becoming their new favorite, but it'd be interesting to have taste change due to player actions and choices as opposed to it just being a random and permanent setting acquired upon joining the server.

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Standard minecraft already have food saturation mechanics, why not use this together with conjunction of preferred/not tasty food. It is logical, that you can eat everything if you are hungry, but you can overeat only tasty food.

Other things bother me:

1. food hydration level - it would be nice to add positive, neutral or negative hydration effect on food, for example fruits would replenish your hydration level , opposite to bread or well done meat. Of course combining food would give mean value of hydration.

2. energy value - if you want to introduce body temperature (I can provide some simple physical models in separate thread, if you wish), different food should have different energy value. This energy is stored in body and used to heat up body. If temperature is low, large amounts of heat are needed thus energy value would deplete quickly, you need to eat energetic foods - fat meat, hot potatoes etc. If temperature is high, energy is still produced (temperature is controlled by sweat evaporation) and therefore you should eat less energetic, cold and juicy food.

Now, preparing food which provide all nutrients, is tasty and optimal for habitated environment, would be nice challenge.

 

EDIT: if talking about decay and stacking system - previously I was playing with Enviromine mod, and in my opinion TFC1 decays system is much better than Enviromine, where you finally ended with chest filled with lot of food stack with different decay stage tags. The only two IFC1 food issues  were: separately picked food items (wonder how many newbie players quit TFC before they realised, than this food can be stacked in craft grid, or by pressing S), and decay speed depended on decay amount (realistic, but forcing too much micromanagement). On the other hand, some food should not rot at all, for example grains and bread, but bread would turn into stale bread, which cannot be used to sandwiches and have negative impact on hydration level. This would allow to keep black hour rations.

Edited by ciekma
added sentences about decay+stacking
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If I could make one change I would remove diary as a requirement.  In several cultures around the world people just didn't drink milk past childhood.  It could probably be reclassified as carb + protein + fat.

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Dairy isn't a requirement, the max health is 800. You can just get a 200hp bonus in tfc1 if you consume dairy as well :)

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I think the taste system in TFC1 is almost perfect as it is.  The only change I would make is to make meals average the taste of the ingredients instead of adding them.  It just doesn't make sense to put 5 slightly sweet ingredients together and get something ridiculously sweet.  But taking something ridiculously sweet and combining it with non-sweet ingredients should give a meal that on the whole is less sweet.  I wouldn't want to eat a ton of pickles, but they're great with ham and swiss on rye.

Also, I would maybe have 3 taste levels at novice rather than 2.  Perhaps "not sweet", "sweet", and "too sweet".  I think somebody without any cooking expertise would at least be able to distinguish between pleasantly sweet and excessively sweet.

On 3/12/2016 at 3:06 PM, Donjons said:

Also I just thought about the fact that we have salt and sugar as taste modyfiers in TFC1,  but how about implementing spices in TFC2?

There could be herbs that could be grown as crops but have no nutritional value, and are used to add to a meal to slightly change its taste. Basil, garlic could change the sourness, rosemary the bitter, etc. Maybe one or two herbs per taste? They could be dried and not decay.

Eventually some of the herbs could have medicinal properties, if magic/brewry is added...

I really like this idea.  Mix the appropriate foods to get a meal that is close, then add spices to make it taste perfect!  Maybe even add a mini game for meal building that makes flavor balancing more interesting than just a math problem.  And if you go with the flavor averaging system like I suggested, maybe spices would add flavor instead of averaging.  So the final flavor of the meal is the average of the primary ingredients, plus any spices you add.

In fact, and this might be going a bit overboard, different types of meals might be easier or harder to get the flavors just right.  You can taste a stew while you are still cooking it and add spices until it is just right, but you have to wait until a pie comes out of the oven and cools before you get to find out if you did it right.  Screw up your pie and you'll just have to learn from experience and do better next time.  Of course there would have to be some incentive to try the harder ones, or we would just make nothing but stew all the time...

Spicy foods.  I love my foods spicy.  Maybe add spicy as a sixth flavor category.

One other thing that came to mind is cravings.  You might have your typical flavor profile that you prefer, but sometimes what you really needs is a good apple pie.  I'm not sure how this would work, what the benefits/penalties of satisfying your craving or not would be, or how the UI would communicate the craving to the player, but it was just an idea I thought I'd throw out there.

P.S.  First time here on the forums!  I recently got introduced to TFC1 and I am loving it.  I've searched far and wide and found all the ingredients I need for top tier steel, except for silver, so I'm stuck with regular steel for now.  But I found an extra large hematite vein in dacite over andesite, so I don't think I'll ever run out.  Already found hundreds of ore and it's still getting denser as I go deeper!

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Fermentation

One feature I both loved and hated features is brewing I love it because I am a brewer myself, I hate it because it is too simple and inaccurate it is here is how it should go.

  1. Crush your grain or juice your plants

This is generally considered the first first step to brewing just about anything

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     2. Soak your grain in boiling water (juices don’t need to be boiled) or disssolve your honey in water

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     To extract the fermentable sugars

     3. Cool the water down

     4. Add flavoring

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     5. Now days at this point you would add yeast but in the old days they would leave it out to let wild yeast grow

    6. Then begins the process of distilling if necessary

     Man6FQtXSh95vbozpcBj4cObO3AHLDjTCQmso-Mx

 

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If a fruit press is added for fermentation it could also be used in the process of jam making, if ever that's implemented.

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True you could also just keep the juice if you don't want to ferment it, although it would have to be heated to prevent it from doing so.

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3 hours ago, kickinit233 said:

True you could also just keep the juice if you don't want to ferment it, although it would have to be heated to prevent it from doing so.

Only if we have a source of potassium sorbate or something.  The only reason fruit juice doesn't ferment on the grocery store shelf is because of modern preservation techniques.

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5 minutes ago, Konlii said:

Only if we have a source of potassium sorbate or something.  The only reason fruit juice doesn't ferment on the grocery store shelf is because of modern preservation techniques.

Not quite true, it is generally pasteurized heating it will kill off any wild yeast.

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34 minutes ago, kickinit233 said:

Not quite true, it is generally pasteurized heating it will kill off any wild yeast.

Okay, sure if you boil the stuff and store it in a hermetically sealed container it will keep for a while.  Until the very first time you pop the cork, take a swig, and infect the entire thing with lactobacillus from your dirty, dirty mouth.

*EDIT* I actually would be interested in seeing a fleshed out alcohol system with separate processes for mashing, brewing, fermenting, and distilling. But the end product would need to be much more useful than it was in TFC1, or it won't be worth the effort.

Edited by Konlii
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For centuries before refrigeration was invented fermenting/dried food was the main form of preserving preserving food. Here is what I suggest:

1. A special ceramic pot that ferments food as long as it is left in the dark. It looks something like this:

images-3.jpg

2. Yogurt: no explanation needed

3.Bagoong monamon: a salted and fermented sardines

4. Blaand: an alcoholic milk drink.

5. Fermented bean curd: fermented tofu

6. Fermented fish: gross but nutritious and great for you

7. Fish sauce: salty and delicious 

8. Garri: fermented cassava dough

9. Gundark: a Nepalese pickle.

10. Misogyny, natto, tempeh, tofu

11. Fermented meat: all meat types

12. Fish paste: fermented mashed fish

13. Fermented shrimp: fermented shrimp would have to of course add shrimp

Cured/dried food:

1. Salt cured jelly fish

2. Portable broth: the rendered remains of broth, would require adding in broth

3. Black lime: it is sweet, salty, and sour

4. Li hing mui: salty dried plum

5. Dried and salted fish: fish that had been salted and left to dry

6. Dried shredded squid:  squid that has been dried and shredded.

7. Dried shrimp: small dried shrimp

8. Stock fish: simple air dried fish.

9. The whole art of Charcuterie multiple items, to many to list

10. Pemmican: a mix of dried meat, fat, fruits, and nuts

and many more foods just look up list of dried or fermented foods.

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The reason I chose fermented/dried foods was in the chance they decided to keep the flavor profile in tfc1 because fermented/dried food is capable of having such a wide range of flavor profiles making it useful if they decided to add food variation like the post you linked suggested.

Edited by kickinit233
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I'm all for anything that concerns food.

Implementing more conservation methods is a good idea since it'll change from pickling everything. I feel like food should be harder to come by/preserve.

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I really enjoy animal husbandry and farming in terrafirmacraft, however as was mentioned in the "agriculture" topic, it should be balanced and not take so much time as to prevent the player from doing anything else during summer. On the other hand, I would like more challenge in farming and tending to animals, since currently I'm buried under tons of food in my TFC world.

The main problem that I see in making food more difficult to obtain/grow/preserve, and also in promoting prepared meals versus raw food, is for the players in early game. If food is harder to come by and preserve, then it sounds like hell for a player that hasn't set up a base yet and has no metal tools.

Thus, I propose a simple idea: the higher the experience level of the player, the faster his hunger decays. That way, new players won't be too handicapped by the lack of processed food and can simply forage for what they need. The more they gain experience, the more they're expected to have progressed in the game and have set up simple farms. Once they reach a high level of experience, they need complete meals to fill their saturation (this would give more reasons to implement cooking recipes).

"Experience" could be determined by the sum of the player's level, and maybe of all his different skills: farming, cooking, prospecting, smithing, etc. Some skills might have more influence on the decay of the hunger bar than others. (for example, a player who loves mining and has a high level of prospecting might not get hungry quite as fast as a player that has a high level of farming, since a miner might not be expected to have built tons of fields whereas a farmer would)

I think this system could add a nice challenge to the game, since it would increase with the player's progression without hindering it.

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5 minutes ago, Donjons said:

If food is harder to come by and preserve, then it sounds like hell for a player that hasn't set up a base yet and has no metal tools.

This is cool, why not? Of course the player does not have metal tools. People in the past farmed without metal for 2000 years.

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