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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Bioxx

Food + Taste + Hunger

75 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, Donjons said:

Thus, I propose a simple idea: the higher the experience level of the player, the faster his hunger decays.

This is not believable, not realistic and grinding. And there are ways to balance all this with pests and dearths and other things already said in other topics, i think. If all the food was for only 1 person it would be too much. But in TFC2 people will have to work together and help others to be helped to advance in the game. And not everyone will be a farmer.

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12 hours ago, Diego il Catanico Jr said:

This is cool, why not? Of course the player does not have metal tools. People in the past farmed without metal for 2000 years.

I agree that it can be fun to try and survive with low food, but if it's as easy for a new player to forage for food, then what is the use of raising animals and having farms? And on the other hand, once you have all those farms you have way too much food lying around and you don't know what to do with it. And when I said metals tools I meant any tools, I'm talking about early game here, like the stone age.

 

12 hours ago, Diego il Catanico Jr said:

This is not believable, not realistic and grinding. And there are ways to balance all this with pests and dearths and other things already said in other topics, i think. If all the food was for only 1 person it would be too much. But in TFC2 people will have to work together and help others to be helped to advance in the game. And not everyone will be a farmer.

I know, that's why I propose that farming skills will deplete the hunger bar quicker than mining or other skills, since farmers will be expected to have more food available. And furthermore, I think it could be quite beneficial for servers since it gives a real purpose to farmers and cooks: they will have to provide food for the rest of the players in exchange for other goods. Currently, anyone can have a patch of vegetables and survive alone on a server. My suggestion means that if you want to have your own patch of vegetables, then you might take the risk of needing more food, thus having to go and buy some into town and promoting exchanges of goods.  What is the use of having a farm if it's too grindy and full of pests, when you could simply forage?

 

And finally, please don't forget also the single players, not everybody wants to play on a server. 

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What if the more food you eat the more food you need? If you're thinner you'll need less food.

Singleplayer is a problem. TFC2 seems to be tought for multiplayer.

But what if singleplayer will be now a mode to show to the player how far you can go alone?

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Darn I made two replies

Edited by Donjons
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15 minutes ago, Diego il Catanico Jr said:

What if the more food you eat the more food you need? If you're thinner you'll need less food.

 

Yes but in that cas there's no reason to eat more food if the more you eat the more you need.

 

Think of it as a bodybuilder for example. The stronger he gets the more food he needs. And, more importantly, the more proper, cooked meals he needs which will encourage more recipes in TFC2.

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3 hours ago, Donjons said:

Think of it as a bodybuilder for example. The stronger he gets the more food he needs. And, more importantly, the more proper, cooked meals he needs which will encourage more recipes in TFC2.

Exactly. I was on mobile phone when i wrote that so i couldn't explain in this way.

And you will always need to eat so there is always reason to eat. Then some foods will make this effect to be less strong (vegetables), and somes more (meat and diary). And if statistic were implemented this will be connected to weight and strenght.

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This just seems annoying. If you are a black smith and go out looking for ore, you are going to need tons of food for what ever distance you travel to find the ore, plus mine it, and then get it back to town. If a farmer and blacksmith went to go tackle a dungeon then the farmer would have an advantage in that he could attack and travel longer without getting hungry.  It seems to be geared toward making the early game easier and the late game more tedious. Things IMO should start out hard, become easier till they managed. The farming in agriculture does keep a farmer pretty busy during the growing season but that can get negated through various people helping out, growing on an island where the temperature is such that you can grow all year long, cooking, and proper storage. 

On my first TFC 1 server we lived in the far north, around -25000, with a very short growing season and not that big of field. You could grow for 4 months out of the year, yet we could grow so much in that short amount of time, that you only had to grow every other year. I would rather make food harder to get, then make people eat more often.

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Instead, as it was proposed before many times, we could have a system with animal hunger. That would give a use for all that food and would require the player to balance food production with how many animals they have.

Before you ask, the proposed was for animals not to die of hunger, ( So if a player is absent from the server they will not find all the animals dead). The animals would just not produce whatever they usually do.

Cows would not give any milk.

Sheep would not grow wool.

Pigs would not give any meat,

Animals would need to be fed at least for 5 days before they start producing.

To help with the grind we could have some Feeding trough.

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Probably the best way is to make food harder to get and to make animals need to be fed.

I already said i don't like the idea and probably farms will still produce too much. But better more than not enough. And to produce too much you would be a skilled farmer.

And hunting should be the main way toget food in early game, and medium-secondary way for mid and late.

IMO now the main problem is that you get food only waiting without doing nothing more for the crops.

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Not a fan of the OP idea.  I think there's plenty of other ways to bring balance to the food equation, that give the player more choice and control.  If crop diseases increase the more crops you have, that alone should be a natural brake on farming.  Not to mention the notions of animals using food, or trading food with npcs.

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I get all your points and I can see that many are against it. Though I would just like to point out that I was not envisioning a high skilled player spending all his time eating, like 4 stacks a food a day or something. To make it relatable, it could be described like this: a new player would eat 1 TFC sandwich a day, whereas a player maxed out on all skills would have to eat 5. If hearty meals are added in TFC2, that could be 1 sandwich for a new player and 1 or 2 hearty meals for the maxed out player. Nothing too extreme, but it would put more value on cooking meals. Therefore the maxed out player would still only have to carry around 1 or 2 items of food, but they would be more nutritious than the simple raw food that the new player could survive on.

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4 hours ago, Donjons said:

I get all your points and I can see that many are against it. Though I would just like to point out that I was not envisioning a high skilled player spending all his time eating, like 4 stacks a food a day or something. To make it relatable, it could be described like this: a new player would eat 1 TFC sandwich a day, whereas a player maxed out on all skills would have to eat 5. If hearty meals are added in TFC2, that could be 1 sandwich for a new player and 1 or 2 hearty meals for the maxed out player. Nothing too extreme, but it would put more value on cooking meals. Therefore the maxed out player would still only have to carry around 1 or 2 items of food, but they would be more nutritious than the simple raw food that the new player could survive on.

Well, nothing against it if it will be configurable.

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All in favor of making food scarce and preserving harder, as long as once the food is preserved the grind stops. 

Grains inside a silo require no maintenance at all and should last for years.

The same is true for Cheese, sausages, dry meat and fruits.

I have asked many times for a system with an expiration tag on food items. I understand it would complicate the inventory, but at least I would not  worry with the grains inside a silo, for up to 5 years.

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I think food should be as experience points are for a mmorpg:  you grind them at the beginning and they are a non issue later on. 

It is true that the main objective of TFC in general is survival and for that reason food seems to be a logical candidate to focus on for the difficulty, but in reality it should not. If food has to play a major role things like farming and food preservation would be an illogical part of the gameplay; farming ensure you with a suitable amount of food and preservation multiply your food several times. The thing is, if you have so much food that you don't know what to do with it, it just mean that you have wasted resources unnecessarily (preservation materials, time, land, etc.). More hunger just mean you have to farm more and to use more materials and time to gather them, instead on focusing on the part of the gameplay that you want.

And that is not considering that people might feel discouraged to advance, to increase their levels if they have to focus on farming instead of whatever they want to do. From a single and multiplayer perspective, the less a single person has to focus on a single activity the more opportunities for fun they have. But that not necessarily means that farming and food cannot be a focus or an end goal for players that enjoy that side. You can be the one responsible for feeding the crazy monster hunters, the brave explorer and/or fellow ranchers. If the quality food returns for TFC2 you can supply with superb sandwiches or stock the restaurant that just opened. The larger the city you have to feed the more you need to learn about rotation and timely production to have a stock of fresh and preserved food all the time.

And food is always needed.

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There is a method used to preserve fruits where I come from which basically boils down to these steps: harvest the fruits before they are fully ripe, cut them small, boil them in concentrated sugar water, and then dry them under the sun (for about 3 days). This results in candied fruit bits. Not sure how nutritious they are, but better than no fruits at all?

Some recipes call for lime paste, but then I'm too lazy to translate the recipe.

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I personally love the idea of more uses for food and more food preservation methods. I like the idea of prepping large communal meals that give special bonuses, or just meals that can give bonuses. Perhaps cooking and eating a roast would give you higher mining efficiency for a set period of time. Soups raise your body temp for a period, making it easier to be in colder climates. Perhaps meal recipes can be found off mobs, since if I remember correctly, there was going to be some dungeon-like elements to TFC2. This could also be used to bring in potion like buffs, since a lot of folks seem to want that. I just know that with TFC1 I like having lots of different grains and veggies and fruit trees, but there's only so much to prepare. 

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Major food crops such as the old stone age was a shellfish, nuts, chestnuts in shortage of food is quite a bit of As the food problem would say what?

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I am in favor of Animal Carcass and and more complex field dress system. Just killing and watching everything just drop ready is very strange to me. I don't know . Maybe a carcass drop that you carry in your back. And more food per animal but animal are more difficulty to find, with an track system and also Clean Kills when you use the bows or the spear, like an quality measure that drop the more hits you do to kill the animal. Also, you can lose the leather when you do many shoots in the animal. So the best option is just one shoot kill, also the animal don't suffer and die quickly. 

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13 hours ago, Keen_Falcon said:

I am in favor of Animal Carcass and and more complex field dress system. Just killing and watching everything just drop ready is very strange to me. I don't know . Maybe a carcass drop that you carry in your back. And more food per animal but animal are more difficulty to find, with an track system and also Clean Kills when you use the bows or the spear, like an quality measure that drop the more hits you do to kill the animal. Also, you can lose the leather when you do many shoots in the animal. So the best option is just one shoot kill, also the animal don't suffer and die quickly. 

You may be interested in this thread.

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Inspired by this topic and this topic.

On 8/19/2015 at 8:09 AM, TonyLiberatto said:

Also please do not even bother arguing about implementing a real nutrition system, based on the individual vitamins, mineral and components of each food. That would bring so much controversy to the game, that even if the Devs were Nutritionists, it would still be one way, and they can never agree, one week eggs are killing you, the next eggs are good for your health. So I say lets stick with the 5 food group and not delve into that territory.

3

While I think the 5 basic food groups is something everyone is familiar with I agree with other individuals it should be abstracted to eight(insert manageable number) groups.

Spoiler

Amakrio, Belatte, Feibrea, Gelib, Jonous, lllitoreo, Oresus, Veitkae

I suggest inside jokes, as those are the best.

2
 

By abstracting it and changing the number from five you no longer have the issue of people arguing over how it matches to reality. Next food items should have a different amount of each and they don't have to make sense, for instance, boiled and scrambled eggs could have different nutrients. This makes it easier to balance and code.

Spoiler

Food items can be assigned nutrients randomly unique to each server which helps when servers have different food items. The nutrients that get assigned to a food item can be weighted so that there's a roughly even distribution among all of the food items on a server.

 

Each category then keeps track of the last four(insert your favorite number here) foods consumed in that category. If you eat the same thing then the nutrients you get from that item is reduced. 

Spoiler

example:

category 3: carrot, PB&J sandwich, celery, ice cream

The first time you eat a carrot it gave you 15 to category 3. If you eat it a second time it's still on the list and you may only get 10 and it'll be added to the back of the list. How ever if you eat steak and it contains 7 in category 3, it'll be added to the list and carrot will be removed due to the list only holding 4 foods. With carrot no longer on the list if you eat a carrot it'll give you the full 15 of that category. However, if carrot also gave you 30 toward category 5 and is still on the category 5 list it'll give you 20 toward category 5 and be placed at the back of the list. 

 

As the categories fill up the player gains buffs to health or other stats. While this is difficult to figure out what gives what, as long as a player eats a variety of foods they don't need to know what gives what. Those who want to minimize the variety of foods they need to eat or want to consistently get the full amount of nutrients will become chefs and greatly benefit from a system like the TFC1 cooking skill but for nutrients instead of taste. On top of all of this, there is hunger and saturation which I wouldn't change other than giving a temporary slowness debuff if more hunger is restored than you have room left for. A reminder that eating too much is bad for you but that's because I'm evil. Watching someone fighting something in a let's play who then starts eating to regain health and ends up eating too much, causing slowness and dying from it would put a smile on my lips.

When I was thinking up this system I had these principals in mind. 

  • Rewards those who eat a very varied diet and does not reward those who don't.
  • Rewards those who eat more complex food items over more basic food items.
  • Works even on servers with different food items without being tailored.

It accomplishes these goals by

  • Having diminishing returns on foods you've eaten recently. 
  • Having different categories and nutrition values.
  • Evenly distributes nutrition among registered food items.

By reducing the number of categories then the player doesn't need as much variety unless you keep track of more foods in each category and reduce the number of categories each food item contributes to. If you don't have categories and nutritional value simple foods you don't have the complexity needed to represent steak which is simple and restores a lot of hunger, a carrot which is simple and doesn't restore a lot of hunger, and carrot cake which restores a lot of hunger and is complex. The number of categories also corresponds to the number of different buffs you can give a player. 

 

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Stroam, you made my day. I was feeling blue but you made me had a nice laugh. Don't ask me why I found so funny thinking how to "abstract" from 5 to 8. :D Don't mind me :P

 

Any way, 

17 hours ago, Stroam said:

By abstracting it and changing the number from five you no longer have the issue of people arguing over how it matches to reality. Next food items should have a different amount of each and they don't have to make sense, for instance, boiled and scrambled eggs could have different nutrients. This makes it easier to balance and code.

For one side I understand changing the numbers to not longer fit a pre-understood system. I like the idea in general, but I am thinking, is it complexity for the sake of complexity? What if, instead of the classical nutritional approach we focus on a more RPG style approach? For example, Strength might, Mind fluidity,  Endurance (HP), Mana veins, and Stamina. These are an example (and maybe a bit bad), but the general idea is that each food instead of being in a single group, they have different "RPG nutritional" values that works toward a particular clear goal. They can also have consequences for over eating or the lack thereof: Too much STR and your "muscles" grow big and slow you down your swings, to little and your carry capacity suffer, and so on. You can also balance towards healty balanced diets; after a particular threshold the "body" start to have adverse effect if the values are not balanced enough, you can die or you can explode (and die).

 

The idea is the "same" from the nutritional approach, just with a different, more gaming, focus. It is believable since you can say that "it is the reflection of a healthy diet, just you are measuring different things". And with that you are free from the "mundane real world".

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4 hours ago, chepelink said:

Stroam, you made my day. I was feeling blue but you made me had a nice laugh. Don't ask me why I found so funny thinking how to "abstract" from 5 to 8. :D Don't mind me :P

 

Any way, 

For one side I understand changing the numbers to not longer fit a pre-understood system. I like the idea in general, but I am thinking, is it complexity for the sake of complexity? What if, instead of the classical nutritional approach we focus on a more RPG style approach? For example, Strength might, Mind fluidity,  Endurance (HP), Mana veins, and Stamina. These are an example (and maybe a bit bad), but the general idea is that each food instead of being in a single group, they have different "RPG nutritional" values that works toward a particular clear goal. They can also have consequences for over eating or the lack thereof: Too much STR and your "muscles" grow big and slow you down your swings, to little and your carry capacity suffer, and so on. You can also balance towards healty balanced diets; after a particular threshold the "body" start to have adverse effect if the values are not balanced enough, you can die or you can explode (and die).

 

The idea is the "same" from the nutritional approach, just with a different, more gaming, focus. It is believable since you can say that "it is the reflection of a healthy diet, just you are measuring different things". And with that you are free from the "mundane real world".

That's a thought. It brings to mind final fantasy 15 where different foods give you different temporary buffs. The parts I like is it is abstracted from reality yet familiar enough to be recognizable. The only downside I see is lining up the buffs with the expected stat. Strength is directly translatable, but is Endurance more hp, absorption, or resistance and what is Mana fluidity? As long as the buff and the name make sense then it's okay to use RPG terms for nutrition and it might even gain a wider audience for TFC2. 

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Posted (edited)

Well, I did not thought about the RPG nutritional as temporary buffs, or to be precise, I thought about them as consequences of a good/bad diet (the more balanced the better). The names were something that I made up without too much thought. Strength as you said is easy, Endurance could be called Constitution or simple HP capacity. Mana fluidity is more of a concept (and bad naming sense) of the -not yet conceptualized- magical system, where, if there is mana, it can be affected depending on how healthy you are. In regards of "healthy" and "diet", the old TFC1 method of just max everything to be healthy is a bit of a miss-opportunity in regards of a balanced diet (not too much protein but not too little).

 

Take of example Mana fluidity (MF), if MF is low, mana capacity (max MP) would be lower, and the lower MF is, the harder is to have maintain mana.  On the other hand, too much MF and you enter an overload state, where mana regen is stopped and too much MF and you may die of mana backlash (random wither effect, for example). In the case of STR, the idea is quite similar, to much and you have overgrown your muscles (oversimplification, I know, but it's a game) and your handling/swinging speed decrease, and energy consumption (hunger) increase. Obviously it is just a general idea and there is going to be adjusted if implemented. 

Edited by chepelink
Clarification
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Perhaps have a real life taste system for variance. For example, I like roast beef, but after eating it for too many meals I wouldn't like it anymore, so I eat something else and eventually I would like it qgain. There could be a saturation effect or something like that when you eat foods you like. Foods you hate, however, can only be eaten if the player was starving and desperate. If we have pre-generated taste system than your personal likes and dislikes can be changed by your eating habit. For example I'm not a huge fan of fish, but I can stand it (neutral liking), I eat it with a varied meal every now and then and the taste grows on me and I might even start to like it.

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