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ciekma

Glass works

14 posts in this topic

 

Melting temperature of pure silicon dioxide is about 2000K, it means white*** hot in TFC terms, obviously impossible to obtain in fire-pit.  You need to add some flux, to lower melting temperature. Therefore, it is theoretically possible to use fire-pit obtain glass from quartz sand mixed with lime, but  such glass is not transparent: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szk%C5%82o#/media/File:Moldavite.jpg

I propose to introduce some glass tiers (I assumed, that crucible will work similar to TFC1):

0.

Melting ordinary sand in fire-pit, like in TFC1 - produce block of ugly and almost non-transparent glass (it provide some light trough, but no view). This kind of glass cannot be used for crafting glass panes or bottles, and doesn't replace vanilla glass block. Breaking such glass would give nothing.

1.

a. digging up quartzite sand (can be found below soil covering lake beds or below soil in some biomes with pine forests

b. sifting quartzite sand trough sieve (made from burlap cloth or something similar) to obtain pure quartzite sand item

c. adding 3 pure quartzite sand + 1 flux to crucible heated above orange temp., provide 3B of liquid glass, any dye added would make coloured glass.

d. ceramic (one use) or steel mould in crucible output slot would give vanilla cubic glass item/block (but with vanilla methods for glass pane and bottle disabled).

e. stick in crucible output slot produce glass globe with cost of 500mB , if it is sufficiently hot, can be crafted with hammer to 8 pieces of so called 'bullseye' flat glass cylinder, or with any tuyere to 1 glass bottle. If glass globe is cold, using hammer would produce glass dust. Glass dust can  be thrown back into crucible (due to obvious programming reason, breaking coloured glass should produce no dust).

d. Glass bullseye with some lead ingot/wires can be crafted into lattice window frame, which can be placed at inside, outside or at centre of the wall. Not sure what about coloured glass, if it possible to make mosaics (from programmers point of view)? There is already 'tall doors' mod, which offer similar approach: http://i.imgur.com/jj0MnSk.png

2.

1 B of molten glass (metal bucket required) can be poured into pane filled with molten tin. If this pane is heated between dark red and red, you can use diamond cutter to obtain vanilla glass panels, each panel use 100mB of liquid glass and 1mB of tin.

Of course, the above method principles were taken from  a modern Picklington float glass production, but you can imagine, that Venice maestro was able to invent similar method some centuries before.

Additionally, glass panels can be crafted together with 4 planks into window frame, which can be freely aligned to centre or side of the wall, unlike vanilla glass panel.

 

Summary:

new blocks: quartzite sand, unclear cube glass, lattice glass, floating tin pane,

new items: hot/cold glass globe, pure quartzite sand pile, glass dust (produced by breaking clear not coloured glass block or glass globe), cube glass moulds.

Edited by ciekma
addendum
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I don't know why nobody's answered this :)

It seems like fun, though I know nothing about the process of glass making, but I'm always up for more technical stuff.

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Just for the purpose of getting a fancy block for my TFC house(where fanciness is huge luxury) I would want to use this system,

however, I feel like other than that there is virtually no motivation to try and get better glass, do you have ideas for that too?

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I very much like the idea of bringing more believably to glass in TFC.  

I like the notion of quartzite sand being necessary.  You could allow the player to 'distill' quartzite sand from other types of sand, over time.  I don't know how this would be done irl, but for TFC purposes, maybe a use for cloth - to make sieves.  Better cloth is more efficient.  So burlap maybe you get a 1/10 return - 1 quartzite sand for every ten blocks of normal sand.  Wool cloth 1/5, and silk 1/2.  If you're lucky enough to find a quartzite zone, then you just pick the stuff up off the beach!  It would probably be a bit tedious for the player to have to sit there and sift the stuff, so maybe make it automatic over time.  Kind of like pressing olive oil.

As for glass blowing itself I have a sort of rough outline of a start.  It's not necessarily complete, but it gives an idea of one direction things could go:

THE GUI
 

Spoiler

 

0GlassWorks.png

This represents a glass furnace.  The gridded area of small squares would have squares about half the standard size.  This is where the glass gets blown.  The blue boxes are standard inventory size, and are where the sand is put.   Below this is a bed of charcoal.  My understanding of glassworks is that they keep their furnaces running continuously, because of the long time it takes to heat large amounts of glass to melting, which also uses a lot of fuel.  It's more effective to leave the furnace running continually, as I understand it.  And so the furnace would take a long time to heat up, and would use a large amount of fuel.  To the left of the active glass/coal bed, is 3 boxes that accept full stacks of coal, and automatically distribute it into the active coal bed as needed, with the idea that unlike the forge, here we're not necessarily trying to make the player juggle fuel in addition to glass blowing.  Here, the furnace simply uses tons of coal. 

The player has the choice of only firing it up when needed (this takes perhaps 2 in-game days), or just leaving it running.  In a multiplayer environment, this would incentivize specialization of somebody in glass-blowing, perhaps.  If the furnace uses 1 coal per hour, 201 pieces of coal would last for a bit over 8 days.   So if it takes 2 days to ramp up the furnace, the player has basically used 50 pieces of coal just getting started.  So once you've started the furnace, it's a good idea to make maximum use of it.

To the left of the working area, at the top are arrows for increasing or decreasing the spin speed of the blowpipe (would not be labeled necessarily).  These come in later.  Below is a simple graphics to represent the blow-pipe the player is using (not actually labeled pipe in the gui).  This is where the molten glass 'attaches' later.  Below the pipe is the GATHER button.  The player uses this to gather molten glass on the end of the blowpipe.  Below that is the BLOW button.  The player uses this to blow air into the glass.  And below this is the box for a successful result to appear.

 

THE PROCESS
 

Spoiler

 

The following represents the several stages to make a glass bottle:

0GlassStages.png

1: The player hits the GATHER button.  This puts four square of molten glass on the end of the pipe.  Note that the pipe graphic is centered on the line between boxes, not a box itself.

2: The player presses GATHER again.  A second set of four boxes appears to the right of the previous four.

3: The player presses the BLOW button.  Four 'air' boxes appear as such, moving four of the glass boxes up and down.

4: The player presses GATHER again.  An additional four boxes of glass appear to the right.

5: BLOW button again, to add four more air inside.  Note that the number of glass boxes present MUST remain the same, and the player cannot move them outward by dragging with the mouse.  Only by hitting the BLOW button.

6: BLOW again.  Four more air boxes, but this time above and below the previous two blows. 

7: GATHER again.  This is the fourth and final gather used for the bottle.

8, 9: both steps are an additional BLOW, for a total of 5 blows.  The GUI is pre-programmed to add air in certain pattern, essentially trying to maintain a sphere-ish shape.

10: Now the player moves boxes.  The player drags the four glass boxes indicated inward.  The player might have to have tools - paddles perhaps, in additional slots (like the anvil has for hammer and flux), or in their hot bar.  Wood paddles wear out fast.  Graphite ones last much longer.

11: This the result of step 10.  The void contained within the glass is the shape necessary to form the bottle.  At this point a bottle appears in the RESULT box, and the player can click on it to get the bottle, which removes all the glass from the work area.  The player has used 4 glass blocks, 5 blows, and moved 4 boxes 1 space each.  Fairly simple, though perhaps should result in 2-4 bottles?

Now, while the player is doing this, they must continually be hitting the speed arrows, mostly the speed up arrow.  The speed must be at a certain level in order for the glass to expand outward when blown, but must be slower in order for the player to use the paddles to move boxes inward.  Perhaps if the speed drops too low, the shape starts to tilt downward, and the player must use their paddles to get it back upright again.  This will have collapsed the air spaces, and they'll have to start over. 

If there is a glassblowing skill, then the higher the skill, the longer each click of the arrow lasts in terms of speed.  A low skill player might have to click the speed arrow a lot, making it more difficult to get complicated shapes finished.  Perhaps higher skill also uses less durability of the paddles.

The process could be further complicated by having zones of heat - a far right hot zone for picking up molten glass, a middle zone for tooling the glass, and a far-left cold zone, which 'freezes the glass in that area in place.  The balancing act here is keeping the speed at the right level, keeping the glass hot, keeping the furnace supplied with sand, and over the long term, fueling the furnace.  The interface is reminiscent of the other crafting guis, but with a twist, in that the player cannot just click whatever boxes they want to make a shape.  They have to follow certain rules, moving boxes outward in one way, but inward in a different way.

 

Of course the question still remains of the usefulness of such a complicated trade, vs rewards.  I'm hopeful that magic and/or alchemy can make use of a variety of glass containers, enough to justify a glass trade, and maybe a skill.  The benefits of the skill would be to make the juggling more manageable, and perhaps to increase durability, if some of the items have durability.  Probably a lot of refining could be done for this, but I hope I've given a good explanation of the general idea.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Darmo
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13 hours ago, Darmo said:

Of course the question still remains of the usefulness of such a complicated trade, vs rewards.  I'm hopeful that magic and/or alchemy can make use of a variety of glass containers, enough to justify a glass trade, and maybe a skill.  The benefits of the skill would be to make the juggling more manageable, and perhaps to increase durability, if some of the items have durability.  Probably a lot of refining could be done for this, but I hope I've given a good explanation of the general idea.

 

 

 

 

 

Well historically glass was very expensive and time consuming, at least until modern times. 

This whole process makes the game more believable and immersive. It also makes the game richer where it adds another professionalization.

As for the reward, as in real life decoration blocks would be enough of a reward. Maybe even enough to create one more trad-able  block.

People will want to have glass blocks for their buildings one way or another.

It would be cool if we could somehow tie the evolution of glass making with the overall technology of the player.

Not a glass history specialist and just do not feel like reading the whole wiki about it right now.

One of the things I know is that mosaic was very popular in the middle ages because they were unable to  make transparent big panels, and no way to make glass blocks.

It would be great if we could make mosaic in game, although I have no idea how this could be coded to allow different colors for parts of the mosaic panel.  

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Ya, the glass for windows thing, that was definitely one of the more recent inventions of man, at least doing it well and transparent.  But in game terms it's probably the least useful.   So if you put nice transparent glass behind a big tech wall, well, a lot of people are going to find that frustrating I think.  I don't really have a problem with window glass being low tech in game terms, since it's just decorative.  Glass for potions and alchemy seems to me like the game-mechanically rewarding end of things.   

I do think leaded glass would be fun, and give a use to lead.  It's pretty counter-intuitive really, because large panes of clear glass are a technological masterwork, while leaded glass panes and the like were simply the best they could do at the time with their more limited glass technology.  But in the game, I'm guessing people would desire leaded glass more, for the decorative effect.  So in terms of game desire, leaded glass should maybe be the higher tech?

I think it'd be very difficult to do mosaic panes.  But there could possibly be lead panes that have a central diamond or square that is colored, with the surrounding ones being clear.  Players could make somewhat of an accent in their windows then.

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On 5/1/2016 at 1:32 AM, Darmo said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

0GlassWorks.png

This represents a glass furnace.  The gridded area of small squares would have squares about half the standard size.  This is where the glass gets blown.  The blue boxes are standard inventory size, and are where the sand is put.   Below this is a bed of charcoal.  My understanding of glassworks is that they keep their furnaces running continuously, because of the long time it takes to heat large amounts of glass to melting, which also uses a lot of fuel.  It's more effective to leave the furnace running continually, as I understand it.  And so the furnace would take a long time to heat up, and would use a large amount of fuel.  To the left of the active glass/coal bed, is 3 boxes that accept full stacks of coal, and automatically distribute it into the active coal bed as needed, with the idea that unlike the forge, here we're not necessarily trying to make the player juggle fuel in addition to glass blowing.  Here, the furnace simply uses tons of coal. 

The player has the choice of only firing it up when needed (this takes perhaps 2 in-game days), or just leaving it running.  In a multiplayer environment, this would incentivize specialization of somebody in glass-blowing, perhaps.  If the furnace uses 1 coal per hour, 201 pieces of coal would last for a bit over 8 days.   So if it takes 2 days to ramp up the furnace, the player has basically used 50 pieces of coal just getting started.  So once you've started the furnace, it's a good idea to make maximum use of it.

To the left of the working area, at the top are arrows for increasing or decreasing the spin speed of the blowpipe (would not be labeled necessarily).  These come in later.  Below is a simple graphics to represent the blow-pipe the player is using (not actually labeled pipe in the gui).  This is where the molten glass 'attaches' later.  Below the pipe is the GATHER button.  The player uses this to gather molten glass on the end of the blowpipe.  Below that is the BLOW button.  The player uses this to blow air into the glass.  And below this is the box for a successful result to appear.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The following represents the several stages to make a glass bottle:

0GlassStages.png

1: The player hits the GATHER button.  This puts four square of molten glass on the end of the pipe.  Note that the pipe graphic is centered on the line between boxes, not a box itself.

2: The player presses GATHER again.  A second set of four boxes appears to the right of the previous four.

3: The player presses the BLOW button.  Four 'air' boxes appear as such, moving four of the glass boxes up and down.

4: The player presses GATHER again.  An additional four boxes of glass appear to the right.

5: BLOW button again, to add four more air inside.  Note that the number of glass boxes present MUST remain the same, and the player cannot move them outward by dragging with the mouse.  Only by hitting the BLOW button.

6: BLOW again.  Four more air boxes, but this time above and below the previous two blows. 

7: GATHER again.  This is the fourth and final gather used for the bottle.

8, 9: both steps are an additional BLOW, for a total of 5 blows.  The GUI is pre-programmed to add air in certain pattern, essentially trying to maintain a sphere-ish shape.

10: Now the player moves boxes.  The player drags the four glass boxes indicated inward.  The player might have to have tools - paddles perhaps, in additional slots (like the anvil has for hammer and flux), or in their hot bar.  Wood paddles wear out fast.  Graphite ones last much longer.

11: This the result of step 10.  The void contained within the glass is the shape necessary to form the bottle.  At this point a bottle appears in the RESULT box, and the player can click on it to get the bottle, which removes all the glass from the work area.  The player has used 4 glass blocks, 5 blows, and moved 4 boxes 1 space each.  Fairly simple, though perhaps should result in 2-4 bottles?

Now, while the player is doing this, they must continually be hitting the speed arrows, mostly the speed up arrow.  The speed must be at a certain level in order for the glass to expand outward when blown, but must be slower in order for the player to use the paddles to move boxes inward.  Perhaps if the speed drops too low, the shape starts to tilt downward, and the player must use their paddles to get it back upright again.  This will have collapsed the air spaces, and they'll have to start over. 

If there is a glassblowing skill, then the higher the skill, the longer each click of the arrow lasts in terms of speed.  A low skill player might have to click the speed arrow a lot, making it more difficult to get complicated shapes finished.  Perhaps higher skill also uses less durability of the paddles.

The process could be further complicated by having zones of heat - a far right hot zone for picking up molten glass, a middle zone for tooling the glass, and a far-left cold zone, which 'freezes the glass in that area in place.  The balancing act here is keeping the speed at the right level, keeping the glass hot, keeping the furnace supplied with sand, and over the long term, fueling the furnace.  The interface is reminiscent of the other crafting guis, but with a twist, in that the player cannot just click whatever boxes they want to make a shape.  They have to follow certain rules, moving boxes outward in one way, but inward in a different way.

 

 

 

On 5/1/2016 at 1:32 AM, Darmo said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

0GlassWorks.png

This represents a glass furnace.  The gridded area of small squares would have squares about half the standard size.  This is where the glass gets blown.  The blue boxes are standard inventory size, and are where the sand is put.   Below this is a bed of charcoal.  My understanding of glassworks is that they keep their furnaces running continuously, because of the long time it takes to heat large amounts of glass to melting, which also uses a lot of fuel.  It's more effective to leave the furnace running continually, as I understand it.  And so the furnace would take a long time to heat up, and would use a large amount of fuel.  To the left of the active glass/coal bed, is 3 boxes that accept full stacks of coal, and automatically distribute it into the active coal bed as needed, with the idea that unlike the forge, here we're not necessarily trying to make the player juggle fuel in addition to glass blowing.  Here, the furnace simply uses tons of coal. 

The player has the choice of only firing it up when needed (this takes perhaps 2 in-game days), or just leaving it running.  In a multiplayer environment, this would incentivize specialization of somebody in glass-blowing, perhaps.  If the furnace uses 1 coal per hour, 201 pieces of coal would last for a bit over 8 days.   So if it takes 2 days to ramp up the furnace, the player has basically used 50 pieces of coal just getting started.  So once you've started the furnace, it's a good idea to make maximum use of it.

To the left of the working area, at the top are arrows for increasing or decreasing the spin speed of the blowpipe (would not be labeled necessarily).  These come in later.  Below is a simple graphics to represent the blow-pipe the player is using (not actually labeled pipe in the gui).  This is where the molten glass 'attaches' later.  Below the pipe is the GATHER button.  The player uses this to gather molten glass on the end of the blowpipe.  Below that is the BLOW button.  The player uses this to blow air into the glass.  And below this is the box for a successful result to appear.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The following represents the several stages to make a glass bottle:

0GlassStages.png

1: The player hits the GATHER button.  This puts four square of molten glass on the end of the pipe.  Note that the pipe graphic is centered on the line between boxes, not a box itself.

2: The player presses GATHER again.  A second set of four boxes appears to the right of the previous four.

3: The player presses the BLOW button.  Four 'air' boxes appear as such, moving four of the glass boxes up and down.

4: The player presses GATHER again.  An additional four boxes of glass appear to the right.

5: BLOW button again, to add four more air inside.  Note that the number of glass boxes present MUST remain the same, and the player cannot move them outward by dragging with the mouse.  Only by hitting the BLOW button.

6: BLOW again.  Four more air boxes, but this time above and below the previous two blows. 

7: GATHER again.  This is the fourth and final gather used for the bottle.

8, 9: both steps are an additional BLOW, for a total of 5 blows.  The GUI is pre-programmed to add air in certain pattern, essentially trying to maintain a sphere-ish shape.

10: Now the player moves boxes.  The player drags the four glass boxes indicated inward.  The player might have to have tools - paddles perhaps, in additional slots (like the anvil has for hammer and flux), or in their hot bar.  Wood paddles wear out fast.  Graphite ones last much longer.

11: This the result of step 10.  The void contained within the glass is the shape necessary to form the bottle.  At this point a bottle appears in the RESULT box, and the player can click on it to get the bottle, which removes all the glass from the work area.  The player has used 4 glass blocks, 5 blows, and moved 4 boxes 1 space each.  Fairly simple, though perhaps should result in 2-4 bottles?

Now, while the player is doing this, they must continually be hitting the speed arrows, mostly the speed up arrow.  The speed must be at a certain level in order for the glass to expand outward when blown, but must be slower in order for the player to use the paddles to move boxes inward.  Perhaps if the speed drops too low, the shape starts to tilt downward, and the player must use their paddles to get it back upright again.  This will have collapsed the air spaces, and they'll have to start over. 

If there is a glassblowing skill, then the higher the skill, the longer each click of the arrow lasts in terms of speed.  A low skill player might have to click the speed arrow a lot, making it more difficult to get complicated shapes finished.  Perhaps higher skill also uses less durability of the paddles.

The process could be further complicated by having zones of heat - a far right hot zone for picking up molten glass, a middle zone for tooling the glass, and a far-left cold zone, which 'freezes the glass in that area in place.  The balancing act here is keeping the speed at the right level, keeping the glass hot, keeping the furnace supplied with sand, and over the long term, fueling the furnace.  The interface is reminiscent of the other crafting guis, but with a twist, in that the player cannot just click whatever boxes they want to make a shape.  They have to follow certain rules, moving boxes outward in one way, but inward in a different way.

 

 

There are some manmade gemstones that are made of glass they're made by putting in minerals while the glass is still liquid maybe they could be used for magic.

Also if they're adding alchemy then maybe since fused quartz is so heat resistant you can make a fused quartz flask or vial if you need to heat up something to a point where other types of glass would melt.

And glass could be used to make lamps that don't go out when it rains and goggles so you can see underwater and binoculars and telescopes and the better you are at glassblowing the more durability the lamps and goggles have and the binoculars and telescopes will zoom farther and if you're a noob at glassblowing maybe occasionally you could make a really good object and if you're a master at glassblowing maybe occasionally you could make a really rubbish object.

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Personally I'd rather use actual gemstones for magic, and this has been suggested in the magic thread. 

Alchemy definitely can have all kinds of things still - very up in the air.  We don't even know if it'll make it into the game.

Those are good suggestions for small glass items, though magnification is less about glass blowing and more about grinding, I'd argue.  Though I suppose for TFC purposes we could just use the blowing for lenses.  My main point is, as much as people like building, and they always like to do it early on, I'm not sure that putting window glass behind a tech wall is going to be that popular.  Other tech items, fine.  Windows, not so sure about.

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Sorry about the double quotes I'm writing this on my kindle fire and for some reason I can't delete quotes

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When I said glassblowing I meant all the glass professions sorry

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Here are my ideas:

  • Glass blowing: I have thought of this for a while, and I think TFC2 needs proper glass blowing. So, to do this, I suggest making sea weed able to be roasted, and once it is roasted it gives soda ash. Soda ash, flux, and sand can be smelted together in a crucible or forge, and it will yield a glass block. However, more can be done! While the glass is molten, it can be poured into a ceramic mold. Then you grab a blowpipe and right click on the mold that may be able to be placed on the ground like ingots. Maybe you need to place spacebar to blow into the pipe, and basically what that does is blow air into the center of the glass. The glass will blow up and form into the mold, making bottles and other kinds of glassware. 
  • Wood Turning: I just came up with this, but maybe you can make bowls and jars and all that mess with a lathe, based off a foot-powered medieval lathe. To work, place a log (maybe a new model, maybe a block) in between the clamps, then interact and you will open a UI much like the new knapping UI like Bioxx showed on twitter. Except one main difference. Since it is a lathe, what you do to one side will be symmetrical to the other side. All woodworks will have the same sides.
  • Potter's wheel: Something that can make clay molding much faster due to symmetrical sides.

That's all I can think of. Might edit it later.

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3 hours ago, Argen said:
  • Potter's wheel: Something that can make clay molding much faster due to symmetrical sides.

FYI, there does exist another thread specifically about Clay Working.

Wood lathe, I'm not sure there's enough potential products for that.  Bowls, yes.  Jars?  I've never heard of wood jars in a historical sense.  I have a hard time coming up with anything else that isn't just decorative, excepting perhaps pulley sheaves.

Glass blowing through moulds would definitely be much simpler to code.  The chemistry of the glass could actually be a good tech tree.  So one could start with simple glass, that maybe gets used up faster, or do more durable glass types, or ones that are required for large items, etc.

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