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      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
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16 posts in this topic

Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): Yes
Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted.

 

 

I would like to hypothesize about an idea concerning one of chemistry / metallurgy greatest inventions, the musket. Now don't get me wrong I am not the person shouting "Guns! Guns 4 Minecraft!!" I am merely formulating a logical path off of current ideas floating around here. It would be something like this:

 

Once your chemistry skills got beyond a certain point then you would be able to create (not just pick up from creepers) gunpowder out of Charcoal, Saltpeter and Sulfur.

Then you could forge a steel or iron "barrel" after carving the wood hilt. The recipe would be: 1 barrel, 1 hilt, 1 flint and 1 Mechanisms. Also you could attach a knife to the end to make a bayonet.

You can forge lead into the ammunition.

 

The damage would be 500 player hit points or an insta-kill for normal mobs. Now the catch is that, just like in real life, flintlock muskets have terrible accuracy and take 20-40 seconds to load one shot, this will be mirrored with in-game muskets. To reload the musket you would have place the empty musket into the crafting grid, then a gunpowder and finally a lead ball. that would craft a half loaded musket. Then you would take that and hold right click to load it, that would take 20 seconds of holding then it would become a loaded musket once again. whew!

 

Now whatever you think of this idea remember I am open to all forms of praise and criticism, don't be "nice" by holding back, if there is a huge flaw please, do tell.

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I would like to see a hunting rifle and revolver, maybe Flint lock. 

We have bows and swords, why not guns?

Edited by Krhymez
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I would like to see a hunting rifle and revolver, maybe Flint lock. 

We have bows and swords, why not guns?

Because guns are MUCH more complicated.

 

A hunting rifle? It took a while to invent rifling, and even then the guns were too inaccurate to use for hunting for a while. Muskets and rifles were only used en masse for a reason, and it wasn't for fun. Then a revolver is EVEN MORE complex. You have moving parts and multiple shots, not to mention the issues of scaling things down. And for something like that you'd need flintlock, which is shoving the complexity through the roof. Took us a while, again, to move from using an igniter to having the ignition system contained within the musket itself.

 

From what I understand, this game isn't going to European renaissance levels of complexity, at most it'll be high medieval, which was well before guns.

 

It is, however, important to note that gunpowder itself had been perfected by about 1350, so gunpowder explosives aren't something out of the realm of possibility (such as the black powder barrel in TFC 1)

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Well, about the inaccuracy, it is not true that it was so terrible, I own a working replica of a flintlock musket and it is not that hard to hit an boar-sized target at 50 meters distance. I would really like to see musket in TFC because we already have gunpowder, almost useless lead and quite advanced metallurgy. Making simple firearms seems like a reasonable idea after mastering steel etc. Adding anvil recipe for a barrel and another one for a flintlock doesnt seem that complicated in terms of implementation.

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Still not convinced a musket would be suitable. At most an arquebus would. As always though, up to the mod maker and apparently the devs aren't too keen on the idea anyways, so...

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They've been recommended before, but I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring.

Guns.

Divisive subject, aren't they? To the fantasy enthusiast, they're the death of the genre and the end of chivalry. But as early as 1500, handguns and cannon were in common usage, right after TFC1's tech level. By 1520, rifling had been made effective, though not common until the 1800s. Early flintlocks were expensive and time-consuming to make, but distinctly effective-initially as much for scaring horses as putting bits of lead in people, but later quite accurate indeed.

Making a barrel is a simple enough task-take eight bars of endgame steel, make four Tuyeres, then Weld two together to make a Short Unfinished Barrel, and Weld two Short Unfinished Barrels to make a Long Unfinished Barrel. With that done, you have to Finish it-with a Reaming Jig-requiring three Plank Blocks, three Wood Planks, and another bar of endgame steel for the drill bit. Drill it once to make a Smooth Barrel, then twice to make a Rifled Barrel.

With that done, work a Steel Sheet to get an Unfinished Breach Group, then craft that with a Flint to get a Breach Group. Stick the Breach Group behind a Short Rifled Barrel atop one Plank to make a Flintlock Pistol, behind a Long Rifled Barrel on top of three Planks to make a Flintlock Musket, behind a Short Smooth Barrel atop a single plank to make a Flintlock Dragoon, and behind a Long Smooth Barrel to make a Flintlock Blunderbuss. Flintlock Pistols and Muskets deal Piercing and Slashing, and Flintlock Blunderbusses deal all three at short range and high inaccuracy.

Reloading requires a Paper Cartridge (one Paper Sheet, one Gunpowder, and one Musket Shot or Blunderbuss Load). Reloading requires holding down R, then tapping Mouse1 to load the cartridge, Mouse2 several times to ream it, then Mouse1 again to put the loading rod away.

Now we get into the process of making shot.

While one COULD make rifle balls or blunderbuss shot with a mold, there was no guarantee of quality from same, and a better result was gotten with a Shot Tower. A Shot Tower must be 5x5 with a 3x3 interior, made of Stone Brick, and at least twenty blocks tall. At the top of the tower, you place a Copper Sieve (created by crafting a square of four Copper Double Sheets), then pour molten lead into same. Over time, the lead will drip and form perfect spheres while falling through the air, then be instantly quenched upon hitting the water. One gathers the resulting Musket Balls with a shovel, like Charcoal.

Ta-da: guns, balanced for their power by distinct difficulty in crafting and expensive materials not only per gun, but per gunmaking workshop. More ammunition cannot be made in the field without difficulty-unlike the Bow-and so balance is preserved.

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This isn't something that I'm terribly opposed to, but its not really on my radar for now. I need to come up with a distinct set of rules for the lore of the world anyways so I'll consider rudimentary firearms going forward. 

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IMO yours is a very good idea.

I never though about guns in TFC2 but now i see, they can fit.

I love having guns during exploring dungeons.

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As an alternative to paper cartridge, if one wants it to be more involved, hence perhaps allowing more power vs much slower reload, the player has to carry a powder flask full of powder, a stack of shot, and a stack of wadding.  Reloading involves:

1-put the 'empty rifle' in the crafting grid with the powder flask - product powdered rifle

2-powdered rifle goes in the grid with the wadding - product wadded rifle

3-wadded rifle goes in grid alone - product ramrod

4-ramrod goes in the grid with the wadded rifle.  Product tamped rifle

5-tamped rifle goes in grid with shot - product packed rifle

6-packed rifle goes in grid with ramrod - product rammed rifle

7-rammed rifle goes in grid with ramrod, and the final product, is a 'loaded rifle'. 

So a seven-step inventory process to load.  If any step is with the wrong combo, the product is a 'fouled rifle', which has to be disassembled at a gunshop workbench.  The ramrod may or may not be a thing.  If it is, and missing it can cause a fouled rifle, you might get some grousing about how a ramrod not being in place won't prevent you from firing irl.  The main idea is to have several steps, so that guns could perhaps be powerful, yet balanced by making reloading complicated and time consuming.

The shot tower idea seems a bit excessive - I think they're more for making ammo on a commercial scale.  Requiring the player to carry a lead pot and a shot mold, both made of cast iron or steel, would I think be more in line with a single person's needs.  Lead pot sits above a fire pit or forge, like a crucible.  Player right-clicks on it with mold to fill mold.  Since iron and above can't be easily whipped up in the field, the player has to carry two extra items around if they want to make shot in the field.  That in addition to the other four items - gun, powder flask, shot stack, wadding stack - that they have to carry just to reload the gun.

As for production, I'm hoping mechanisms will eventually be a thing in TFC2 (maybe even two grades - fine and heavy)  And guns could require one in their recipe.  Guns could have a hidden lifetime durability, based on the tier of their barrel.  This is a number picked within a random range when the gun is made, and is the number of uses it's good for - it's 'life'.  This number is increased by good smithing skill, and higher tier metals.  Separately the actual uses is tracked.  Once actual uses exceeds the life, every shot thereafter has a chance to explode in the player's face, damaging and blinding them.  This percent could also be based on tier and/or skill - something 10% for steel, down to 1% for top tier.  If there is a rifle skill or something, the player might be able to see a tooltip showing the times the rifle has been used so far.  A master smith might be able to see the life.

And of course, a player needs to be able to use a pistol in their off hand, so they can come in dual-wielding pistols >:-D

Edited by Darmo
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Theoretically speaking, the idea of guns could start down in tier one with brass as the barrel component in crude, so-called "hand cannons"

Very simple design, a barrel and a match-lock, maybe a "stock"(more of a: "I-dont-want-to-break-my-shoulder" rest) made from timber, Extremely inaccuate for anything more than 4 blocks forward

the match part could be made out of jute wicks, gunpoweder for propellant, and small rocks as projectiles.

Thoughts?

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2 hours ago, Darmo said:

As an alternative to paper cartridge, if one wants it to be more involved, hence perhaps allowing more power vs much slower reload, the player has to carry a powder flask full of powder, a stack of shot, and a stack of wadding.  Reloading involves:

1-put the 'empty rifle' in the crafting grid with the powder flask - product powdered rifle

2-powdered rifle goes in the grid with the wadding - product wadded rifle

3-wadded rifle goes in grid alone - product ramrod

4-ramrod goes in the grid with the wadded rifle.  Product tamped rifle

5-tamped rifle goes in grid with shot - product packed rifle

6-packed rifle goes in grid with ramrod - product rammed rifle

7-rammed rifle goes in grid with ramrod, and the final product, is a 'loaded rifle'. 

So a seven-step inventory process to load.  If any step is with the wrong combo, the product is a 'fouled rifle', which has to be disassembled at a gunshop workbench.  The ramrod may or may not be a thing.  If it is, and missing it can cause a fouled rifle, you might get some grousing about how a ramrod not being in place won't prevent you from firing irl.  The main idea is to have several steps, so that guns could perhaps be powerful, yet balanced by making reloading complicated and time consuming.

The shot tower idea seems a bit excessive - I think they're more for making ammo on a commercial scale.  Requiring the player to carry a lead pot and a shot mold, both made of cast iron or steel, would I think be more in line with a single person's needs.  Lead pot sits above a fire pit or forge, like a crucible.  Player right-clicks on it with mold to fill mold.  Since iron and above can't be easily whipped up in the field, the player has to carry two extra items around if they want to make shot in the field.  That in addition to the other four items - gun, powder flask, shot stack, wadding stack - that they have to carry just to reload the gun.

As for production, I'm hoping mechanisms will eventually be a thing in TFC2 (maybe even two grades - fine and heavy)  And guns could require one in their recipe.  Guns could have a hidden lifetime durability, based on the tier of their barrel.  This is a number picked within a random range when the gun is made, and is the number of uses it's good for - it's 'life'.  This number is increased by good smithing skill, and higher tier metals.  Separately the actual uses is tracked.  Once actual uses exceeds the life, every shot thereafter has a chance to explode in the player's face, damaging and blinding them.  This percent could also be based on tier and/or skill - something 10% for steel, down to 1% for top tier.  If there is a rifle skill or something, the player might be able to see a tooltip showing the times the rifle has been used so far.  A master smith might be able to see the life.

And of course, a player needs to be able to use a pistol in their off hand, so they can come in dual-wielding pistols >:-D

I counter with the use of the new Offhand slot-instead of cluttering up crafting with six new items, you make stages equivalent to the new Bow's draw stages-first powder in offhand, right-click to fill, then wadding (craft Cotton or Silk cloth, not Burlap, get 16 Wadding), then ramrod in offhand to tamp, then shot to pack, then ramrod again to finish ramming. Doing them out of order may result in a jammed weapon, a misfire, or a kb depending on how you fuck it up, and I'd kind of like to be able to fire ramrods in desperation ala Mad Max Fury Road.

This would require four slots of inventory space JUST to load and reload, which would preserve balance. Probably. Ditto shot towers-though you could have shot towers produce higher-quality ammo or larger amounts thereof. Idk, I just like the things, yannow?

 

25 minutes ago, Omri100 said:

Theoretically speaking, the idea of guns could start down in tier one with brass as the barrel component in crude, so-called "hand cannons"

Very simple design, a barrel and a match-lock, maybe a "stock"(more of a: "I-dont-want-to-break-my-shoulder" rest) made from timber, Extremely inaccuate for anything more than 4 blocks forward

the match part could be made out of jute wicks, gunpoweder for propellant, and small rocks as projectiles.

Thoughts?

Instead of making a whole new 'match' item of limited usefulness, why not just use a torch in the offhand? Rocks as projectiles is just fine with me, though.

 

Edited by Pwnlord
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I had similar idea with drilling barrel using steel drill (which need endgame steel), of course still drill have limited uses (can be extended by using chipped diamonds improved steel drill).

But instead forging barrel from tuyeres, I propose a foundry process - barrel form would be carved from gypsum block (for musket) or two vertical placed gypsum blocks (for cannon) with use of chisel (assuming that 8x8x8 chiseling will be available for TFC2, if not, maybe someone pick this idea for TFC1 mod?)

Once barrel form is created properly, it can be filled with gunmetal (red brass) and then solidified, barrel can be retrieved by breaking gypsum block.

Barrel durability depend on weapon smithing experience of player, which was casting brass, probability of explosion during shoot increase when gun durability is very low.

For proper balance of the game, musket loading should be performed by using crafting grid with empty musket, gunpowder, lead projectile and paper, cannon loading by shift-throwing gunpowder, iron projectile and wool when standing in front of cannon - both with rammer in hotbar (or in left hand in case of mc1.9).

Of course both weapons should not shot, if exposed on rain/water.

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Unless there's going to be siege warfare in TFC2, I have a hard time imagining how a cannon would be useful, aside from some sort of fortress defense killing-hallway scenario.  But that's getting into some pretty specific tactical situations, with extremely tough mobs.  Not saying it's not possible, but it'd be taking the mod to another level.  if they were in game, they should most definitely be a foundry process, if casting makes it.  But I'd suggest sand casting.

Drilling of gun barrels, I believe is a relatively recent invention.  From everything I've read handgun barrels were formed of metal strips hammered and welded together around a mandrel, then reamed for smoothness, up until the late 18th or early 19th centuries.  Not saying the game can't take liberties, but that's relatively recent tech from what i understand.  If drilling barrels did make it into the game, it should be an extremely slow process (also good for game balance perhaps).  Because they could in no way whatsoever match the speeds of modern machinery back then, on such a long drill.

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From the IRC:


May 07 07:57:59 <Omri>    So I saw the gun suggestion thread.
May 07 07:58:10 <Omri>    made my cogs spinning.
May 07 07:58:46 <Omri>    I got some expirience and knowledge with ancient firearms that might be useful here
May 07 08:00:15 <Omri>    In theory a matchlock musket/rifle could also be a possibility
May 07 08:00:43 <Omri>    Especially with the use of jute fibres for the slow burning "match"
May 07 08:01:56 <Omri>    and bronze barrels for ancient firearms
May 07 08:02:12 <Omri>    a bulky, matchlock bronze blunderbuss as tier one gun
May 07 08:06:18 <JackSparrow>    Are there any kind of anti-griefing mod/plugins that will work with the latest release of TFC for my server? I really would rather not whitelist the server as that creates a lot more work of player screening and access that I just don't have time for at the moment.
May 07 08:07:11 <JackSparrow>    LURKer: No I am not running FastCraft. I don't even know what that is. My TFC server is vanilla with no additional mods other than the base TFC install.
May 07 08:09:52 <Omri>    I think that griefprevention works with forge mods well
May 07 08:09:57 <Omri>    but im not too certian
May 07 08:11:38 <Omri>    I also recall worldguard and towny work
May 07 08:16:44 <JackSparrow>    from what I have found those are meant to work with bukkit style plugins, but, I could be wrong and overlooking something.
May 07 08:20:37 <Omri>    bukkitforge is a thing
May 07 08:21:07 <Omri>    Im only running a vanilla server.
May 07 08:21:17 <Omri>    my last modded one was 3 or so years ago
May 07 08:21:24 <Omri>    funny enough it was tfc
May 07 08:28:40 <LURKer>    JackSparrow, try adding FastCraft then
May 07 08:28:49 <LURKer>    it's recommended on the DL page for TFC
May 07 08:29:18 <LURKer>    Omri, I am Pwnlord. :3
May 07 08:29:59 <LURKer>    I know it wasn't super detailed, but I was mostly gathering together some quick Google searches, with a dash of Wikipedia article.
May 07 08:31:00 <Omri>    ah, well in that case LURKer lets brainstorm for a bit
May 07 08:33:07 <Omri>    thoughts on crude hand-cannons?
May 07 08:35:49 *    LURKer handwaggle
May 07 08:36:16 <LURKer>    I could be for 'em, mostly didn't propose them because anything that sounds vaguely like "tier 1 guns" tends to provoke rage and "NO GUNS EVAR"
May 07 08:36:17 <LURKer>   http://i.imgur.com/lfbEiqu.jpg
May 07 08:36:25 <LURKer>    this is my personal favorite style thereof, the Culverin!
May 07 08:36:37 <LURKer>    yes, let's make a bomb on a stick with an open end on one side
May 07 08:37:08 <Omri>    I mean
May 07 08:37:21 <Omri>    1-hit kill most mobs
May 07 08:37:29 <Omri>    50% chance for losing a limb
May 07 08:37:40 <Omri>    increases ad durabillity goes down
May 07 08:37:47 <Omri>    last resort sort of weapon
May 07 08:37:51 <LURKer>    mhm
May 07 08:38:17 <Omri>    Its practical for early survival and useless for later stages
May 07 08:38:19 <LURKer>    I'd say more like, 1/4th HP per kb
May 07 08:38:27 <Omri>    Sounds like a great weapon
May 07 08:38:44 <LURKer>    since limb removal is kind of hardcore for a Minecraft mod and just incentivises player suicide
May 07 08:39:21 <LURKer>    "well I could continue with decreased capability and my levels OR I could die gloriously. HmmmmALLAHUACKBAR *boom*"
May 07 08:40:02 <LURKer>    kb causes the loss of the culverin, possibly giving a Destroyed Culverin that can be melted for half its metal cost
May 07 08:41:45 <Omri>    Culverin fragments
May 07 08:43:48 <Omri>    Culverin < Blunderbuss < Smooth Bore Musket < Rifled Musket
May 07 08:44:36 <LURKer>    Sounds good, though I'd replace the Blunderbuss with the Hand Cannon
May 07 08:44:52 <LURKer>    I want the Blunderbusses to be their own parallel tech tree to the Muskets
May 07 08:45:08 *    LURKer quickly types up some ASCII.
May 07 08:45:38 <Omri>    Achievement Get: Mah Boomstick
May 07 08:46:58 <LURKer>    _______________________/ -> Cast Blunderbuss -> Forged Blunderbuss
May 07 08:46:58 <LURKer>    Culverin -> Hand Cannon
May 07 08:46:58 <LURKer>    _______________________\ -> Smoothbore Musket -> Rifled Musket
May 07 08:48:10 <Omri>    Trigger Mechanism: Fuse < Matchlock < Flintlock
May 07 08:48:55 <Omri>    40% failure chance in fuse
May 07 08:49:05 <Omri>    20% for matchlock
May 07 08:49:11 <Omri>    5% for flintlock
May 07 08:50:09 <LURKer>    Yup. It'd be nice if you could apply the trigger group qualities to each item seperately but idk if you could do that. I think you might be able to use something like the way the code handles Vessel contents or Large Vessels being used like buckets? Idk.
May 07 08:52:12 <Omri>    Not-a-programmer
May 07 08:52:36 <Omri>    Im an engineer
May 07 08:53:39 <Omri>    I know how to make things work
May 07 08:54:55 <LURKer>    Yeah. I mean it'll probably have to be hardcoded, Handcannons and Culverins use fuses, Cast Blunderbusses and Smoothbore Muskets are matchlocks, Rifled Muskets and Forged Blunderbusses are flintlocks.
May 07 08:55:20 <Omri>    I like the torch idea
May 07 08:55:21 <LURKer>    but it'd be nice to have, say, a Flintlock Hand Cannon for cheap ammo and much lower chance of kb.
May 07 08:55:35 *    DigitalReaper ([email protected]) has joined
May 07 08:57:52 <Omri>    how about a middle ground
May 07 08:57:57 <LURKer>    added another thing to my post
May 07 08:58:21 <Omri>    torch lit works for both handcannons and culverins
May 07 08:58:48 <Omri>    matchlock for handcannon + smoothbore/cast blunderbuss
May 07 08:59:08 <Omri>    and the flinlock for muskets and blunderbusses only.
May 07 08:59:17 *    LURKer handwaggle.
May 07 08:59:33 <LURKer>    It's sensible, but I tend to err on the side of "minimum number of single-use items."
May 07 09:00:10 <LURKer>    though I feel like there should be a consumable involved for matchlocks
May 07 09:02:19 <Omri>    jute fiber
May 07 09:02:38 <Omri>    great extra use

 

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