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drkoaeg

Clay working

41 posts in this topic

Assuming the clay working mini game keeps about the same, I would like to propose a second mini game for vessels, jugs,...

It could be pretty fun to use a pottery wheel and the clay is moving around while you try to keep it in place and give it shape. For better imagination is here a graphic, that could resemble the game interface:

Vessel on pottery wheel.png

 

 

Edited by drkoaeg
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What kinds of rewards do you propose for those who do it skillfully?  Less clay used?  Lighter types of vessels?  Certain masterworks only able to be accomplished if done perfectly?

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1 hour ago, KronoNomikon said:

What kinds of rewards do you propose for those who do it skillfully?  Less clay used?  Lighter types of vessels?  Certain masterworks only able to be accomplished if done perfectly?

I did not think about achieving better or worse product. I don't think this is needed, the clay clicking mini game gives also only product or no product.

But I could also imagine that the resulting volume of the vessels and jugs varies. Don't know if this is easily doable.

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This mini game would help people get intuitive to vessels etc without having to look up some patterns in the wiki all the time.

In my opinion are those clay products pretty worthy, so the little more effort is reasonable.

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Maybe, since a potter's wheel takes a little bit of sawing etc., it could be an upgrade?  I guess that would be like the difference between casting and smithing, huh?  Almost makes you speculate about glass blowing and spinning...
In any case, if it's an upgrade, but it isn't easier, what would be the advantage of it?  Making things that are unobtainable when hand-crafting?  If it's for vessels and jugs as a whole, one would think it would just replace the current mini-game.  Why do I say this?  Because vessels are needed (currently) to melt ores, which would be needed to cast saws, which would be needed to craft a legitimate potter's wheel.  Before they began to use potter's wheels, people used to form vessels differently, I believe.

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Within the new game system, I think there's only really a couple options for improved pottery.  One would be increased capacity - the more difficult vessel has more slots, the more difficult water jug holds more water.  Not totally logical, and I think the process would need to be significantly more difficult or time consuming to justify these sorts of bonuses.

The other option is reduced weight, assuming weight makes it into TFC2 as has been discussed in the encumbrance thread.  This is somewhat logical, as I think if you're not making vessels on a wheel, you're using the building up of ropes of clay,which in general probably tends to make for a thicker, heavier item.

 

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Making a coil pot (one from "ropes of clay") doesn't have to be a heavier item - in the hands of a good potter, it can  be thinner than a pot thrown on a wheel by a novice.  A master potter throwing a pot can make a thin pot, but the nature of clay means that there *is* a limit - but that, of course, depends on the properties of the specific type of clay you're using.

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Fair enough.  Either way, these are bonuses that could be incorporated - logical or not.  The only other thing I can really think of is if the potting wheel had recipes that were not even available for regular clay knapping.  But I'm not sure what that would be.  Maybe a large vessel that also acts to preserve food? or just grains or something?  Bigger flower pot that can accept fruit trees, but they only grow to have 9 leaf blocks at maturity, rather than 22?  Maybe it accepts crops as well?  If beekeeping were ever a thing, clay skeps?

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8 hours ago, KronoNomikon said:

In any case, if it's an upgrade, but it isn't easier, what would be the advantage of it?  Making things that are unobtainable when hand-crafting?  If it's for vessels and jugs as a whole, one would think it would just replace the current mini-game.  Why do I say this?  Because vessels are needed (currently) to melt ores, which would be needed to cast saws, which would be needed to craft a legitimate potter's wheel.  Before they began to use potter's wheels, people used to form vessels differently, I believe.

Actually there are many historical pottery wheels that are made of clay:

Historical pottery wheel.jpg

So it would not be a huge complication...

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3 hours ago, Darmo said:

Within the new game system, I think there's only really a couple options for improved pottery.  One would be increased capacity - the more difficult vessel has more slots, the more difficult water jug holds more water.  Not totally logical, and I think the process would need to be significantly more difficult or time consuming to justify these sorts of bonuses.

I think this is logical: I have already worked with such things, and it is hard to make a vessel with big volume: as bigger it gets, the more difficult to keep the shape.

So it could be more difficult to make vessels than jugs, but instead of bringing a little bit more water, it would bring more inventory slots, which is more value.

Edited by drkoaeg
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But as I already pointed out, I don't think it would be essential to have those bonus things...

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Don't think the pottery wheel should be dependent on metal.

In it's origin, it was just a surface that could be rotated instead of the craftsman having to go around the pot.

If we ever have mechanical power introduced to the game we could then have an upgrade that would make the job faster.

That would be reason enough as time is the most important aspect in a game.

 

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I could see where if we're getting a larger 10x10 knapping/clayforming grid (could have sworn I saw this somewhere a long time ago), and vessels and jugs actually took several squares of working on each side, a pottery wheel could speed it up by automatically mirroring the player's selection.  So if a vessel required removal of maybe 24 blocks - in the same pattern on each side, then the potting wheel would cut the time in half.    I could see that being enough of a benefit for people to want to use it.  It would only work for symetrical round objects of course.  It would be kind of interesting if there was an 'add clay' mode.  So for the water jug you first get it down to the symmetrical handle-less shape, and then switch to add clay mode and add a few pixels for the handle.

But if it's available in the stone-age, it seems like the player would almost never use the regular method for vessels and stuff.  Only if they were traveling and needed to replace a jug basically.  It seems like it should at least take an unusual resource of some kind.  I'd just go with a metal tech gate, and suggest 8 raw stone in a ring pattern.  That'll ensure the player uses regular methods for a little while at least.

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44 minutes ago, Darmo said:

I could see where if we're getting a larger 10x10 knapping/clayforming grid (could have sworn I saw this somewhere a long time ago), and vessels and jugs actually took several squares of working on each side, a pottery wheel could speed it up by automatically mirroring the player's selection.  So if a vessel required removal of maybe 24 blocks - in the same pattern on each side, then the potting wheel would cut the time in half.    I could see that being enough of a benefit for people to want to use it.  It would only work for symetrical round objects of course.  It would be kind of interesting if there was an 'add clay' mode.  So for the water jug you first get it down to the symmetrical handle-less shape, and then switch to add clay mode and add a few pixels for the handle.

But if it's available in the stone-age, it seems like the player would almost never use the regular method for vessels and stuff.  Only if they were traveling and needed to replace a jug basically.  It seems like it should at least take an unusual resource of some kind.  I'd just go with a metal tech gate, and suggest 8 raw stone in a ring pattern.  That'll ensure the player uses regular methods for a little while at least.

Actually I would like to see the clay clicking recipe for vessels and jugs removed, and jugs/vessels would only be obtainable with the pottery wheel.

Edited by drkoaeg
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I made a rough schematic, how I could imagine this mini game:

Vessel on pottery wheel.png

The game shows one circle (the pottery wheel turning). From up to down is the timeline of the creation of a vessel. From left to right the potential movement of the clay which has to be slowed down by clicking at the dissolute border of the vessel.

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How would that process play out?  Like, you just have to keep it round for a certain amount of time and then it pops off?  Or what?  Those graphics don't really make it clear to me how this would play out in terms of game mechanics.  And how do you know what you're making if everything is a circle?  Is there a series of recipe buttons, and you select the one you want to make?  Just trying to get a better handle on how this might work.  It seems to me like the shape options would be better in section than in plan.

As far as removing certain clay knap recipes and making them wheel only, I could see that.  So then the wheel is made with like, 9 clay in the grid?  Fire it, put it in grid with some sticks?  Out comes your wheel?  It seems like it'd need to wear out over time, or the player is only ever going to make one.  Although if it's super-heavy they may elect to just make a new one when they move.  I feel kind of like not having a clay knap recipe for vessels and stuff would make the wheel less of an advancement, and more just scenery.  But I do like scenery.

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1 hour ago, Darmo said:

How would that process play out?  Like, you just have to keep it round for a certain amount of time and then it pops off?  Or what?  Those graphics don't really make it clear to me how this would play out in terms of game mechanics.  And how do you know what you're making if everything is a circle?  Is there a series of recipe buttons, and you select the one you want to make?

Yes, I would propose that you have to keep it in shape for an amount of time. The good thing of this way of view (see graphic): You start with the bottom, there it is easy, the rotation force is low, the "higher" the vessel is generated, the more rotation force you will get, also the thin walls may get instable, so the movement of the walls (darker blue circle) raises. You must click all the time on that side where it makes baggies. The third and most difficult step is when you make the neck (last row in graphic): If you look from upside on the vessel you see two borders, the big light blue one is the vessel, the smaller one the emergent neck. Now you have to click both borders to keep it in shape.

So I would suggest that this would be similar for all jars possibly implemented. So if you want to make a vessel or jug or maybe bowl could be decided by how many clay you take or as you propose by button clicking.

1 hour ago, Darmo said:

As far as removing certain clay knap recipes and making them wheel only, I could see that.  So then the wheel is made with like, 9 clay in the grid?  Fire it, put it in grid with some sticks?  Out comes your wheel?  It seems like it'd need to wear out over time, or the player is only ever going to make one.  Although if it's super-heavy they may elect to just make a new one when they move.  I feel kind of like not having a clay knap recipe for vessels and stuff would make the wheel less of an advancement, and more just scenery.  But I do like scenery.

Yeah, good point, I don't know, if you must fire it, but I like this recipe. I think it is sufficient if it's too heavy to take it with you. See vanilla crafting benches, they are not carried arround but thrown everywhere needed...

Edited by drkoaeg
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Not sure if you've ever tried throwing a pot, but I doin't think that kind of skill really lends itself to simply clicking in the right place at the right time.   Also, when you get higher the walls don't necessarily get thinner - unless you make them thinner - and when you make a jug you normally start by making it pretty much like a cylinder, then make the "waist".  Finally you'd add the handle and form the spout manually.

Sorry...

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1 hour ago, ChunkHunter said:

Not sure if you've ever tried throwing a pot, but I doin't think that kind of skill really lends itself to simply clicking in the right place at the right time.   Also, when you get higher the walls don't necessarily get thinner - unless you make them thinner - and when you make a jug you normally start by making it pretty much like a cylinder, then make the "waist".  Finally you'd add the handle and form the spout manually.

Sorry...

Yeah, you are describing how it is done if you want it to make it realistic. But everywhere in this forum there is told that believability is the way to do it. So I thought about how to make it like a simple mini game with raising degree of difficulty out of this. And for me, who has made some vessels with no professional instruction, it is completely believable.

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Yes and no -I'm trying to point out that putting hand-eye co-ordination in as a game skill is not really something we should be doing, and that it doesn't correllate well with the actual skill of throwing a pot.

The suggestion with the graphic to which I was replying was talking about the pot getting thinner and also about making a jug (or perhaps drinking vessel in a particular way - also suggested you could make oval pots on a rotating wheel which is impossible.

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4 hours ago, ChunkHunter said:

Yes and no -I'm trying to point out that putting hand-eye co-ordination in as a game skill is not really something we should be doing, and that it doesn't correllate well with the actual skill of throwing a pot.

The suggestion with the graphic to which I was replying was talking about the pot getting thinner and also about making a jug (or perhaps drinking vessel in a particular way - also suggested you could make oval pots on a rotating wheel which is impossible.

So can you tell me, that all the other minigames in tfc are based according to the moves irl, I don't think so. And what is wrong with eye-hand coordination, I mean, that is essentially what you are doing at a computer?

If you have a defined mass of clay that you form to a bowl, you will have to make the walls thinner to have enough material for making a whole vessel out of this. That is believable.

When you push on one side too hard you will get an elliptical shape. Of course through rotation this is only a very short moment, but it is real. That is the physical movement of a soft ring (imagine vessel cut into rings) when you push one side in, the material gets pushed right and left side to elliptical form.

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Feel free to suggest better game mechanism, that fits your expectations...

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I like the more detailed graphic you put in the first post drkoaeg.  Much more explanatory about the idea.  And I think well within the standards of crafting minigames, imo.  All of the processes in tfc are HIGHLY abstracted.  I think it's a natural tendency for people to want more detail in the things they're highly experienced in.  There's been some suggestions for extremely detailed alcohol brewing mechanics, from people obviously highly experienced irl with brewing.  There's nothing wrong with highly detailed suggestions, but drkoaeg's is well within the norm I think.  Depending on how much time the player has to respond to bulges, it seems like it's not difficult, just requires attention, and an amount of time greater than clay knapping currently requires, I'd imagine.   This seems appropriate for a stone-age craft, to me at least.  It's a minigame that is not just removing blocks, and I like that - I think variety is good.  Though whether or not it becomes extremely complicated to code is another matter.  But it seems like just several rotating sprites which change once in awhile, and several hitboxes, plus a filling-up graphic on the side. 

My question - and I only have a tiny bit of pottery wheel experience - but isn't the danger less of an ellipse forming (symmetrical bulges) but more that the vessel begins to tilt in one direction?  So maybe the bulge is in one spot rather than two?   And these graphics will rotate right?  So if it starts to bulge, the bulge will rotate?    In that scenario I think maybe 8 hit-boxes would be better.   Will there be stages of bulge?  Or just one stage and if you don't address it in time the pot is ruined? And the bottom row middle image has four X's, for the neck and body.  Does this mean the player has to tend to both those levels at the same time?  The side view, that slowly fills upward, and acts as the timer so the player knows how much longer they have to go ya?  I like the idea overall.  I was skeptical at first but the graphics really help get across how it would work. 

It might be interesting if the player could control the speed.  Higher speed fills up the progress bar faster, but more bulges will form, and they will rotate faster, requiring more careful attention. 

Edited by Darmo
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I think for a new minigame, the graphic in the first post now explains the idea well.  As long as you get enough time to click on the boxes to reshape the pot, I don't think it's a problem.

As Darmo says it may simply be a question of sprites changing and a 'fill-up' bar (presumably with a different outline and maybe different sprites for different kinds of pots).

I wasn't proposing a new minigame, just trying to pad out the details of how things work irl.

As for your bulges, Darmo, once the pot starts going out of shape it's difficult to 'train' it back - a novice would have to try over after he picks up all the clay that has exploded on his wheel :D

 

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7 hours ago, Darmo said:

My question - and I only have a tiny bit of pottery wheel experience - but isn't the danger less of an ellipse forming (symmetrical bulges) but more that the vessel begins to tilt in one direction?  So maybe the bulge is in one spot rather than two?  

And these graphics will rotate right?  So if it starts to bulge, the bulge will rotate?    In that scenario I think maybe 8 hit-boxes would be better.  

Will there be stages of bulge?  Or just one stage and if you don't address it in time the pot is ruined?

And the bottom row middle image has four X's, for the neck and body.  Does this mean the player has to tend to both those levels at the same time? 

The side view, that slowly fills upward, and acts as the timer so the player knows how much longer they have to go ya? 

It might be interesting if the player could control the speed.  Higher speed fills up the progress bar faster, but more bulges will form, and they will rotate faster, requiring more careful attention. 

I was unsure about this, but I think it will be much easier to animate an elliptical shape than something organic. Another aspect, and correct me if I am wrong, if you looked in slow motion what happens to a soft clay vessel on the wheel when it gets pressure on one side, you would see the material moves forward. And because it's a wall, that can't simply be compressed, the material gets forces in star formation away from this place. That is one effect on how the pot grows in height but also, and that's what we see when looking from above to bove sides.

This described mechanism is dynamic and very fast (the wheel moves the vessel on and with it the pushing hand). So macroscopic view is smooth fluent change between elliptic and round shape after clicking. That would also be much more handy to code I would imagine. So you see in the.graphics only the three extreme cases between them it iterates.

You have already pointed on some"stage" mechanics for bulging: The movement speed could be varied as well as your next point is leading in:

Yes, the four X's show the last stage. There you have to control the bottom shape as well as the neck.

I added this side view for better understanding, but I love this idea of using this as timer. So new players hopefully understand that schematic. Also it could represent what item you have actually chosen to produce.

Yeah I think those variables to balance out will be the essence of how much fun this game can make.

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