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Sniiker

Some Stone Tools Don't Need Wood Handle

15 posts in this topic

When I first played TFC I didn't know much about the game mechanics other what my friend told me, he told me to knap a knife blade so that i could cut grass.
I did as he said but I couldn't collect any straw, why? Because I didn't add one insignificant little stick.

In my opinion some stone  tools just don't NEED one stick to still still work, and quite realistically no one would add a little wood handle to a stone knife if you can still can hold the tool and work with it.

My suggestion is, for some stone tools such as, knife or even a hatchet don't need handles.

1c367cfdb4.jpg Here's a guy who made a stone hatchet without a handle IRL (In real Life), and it  works! I would like some of this logic in TFC2.

Shot outs to Primitive Technology.

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This is another example of where we prioritize gameplay and consistency over realism. If everything needs a handle, then you don't have confused players trying to figure out why the crafting recipe doesn't work when they put a knife blade and a stick in the crafting grid. If we were to do stone tools without handles, then we'd need to make it so that all stone tools don't have handles. Otherwise you're just asking for confusion.

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I know is not going to happen.

Maybe an addon? Who knows.

In my opinion the sequence should be like this:

Stone knife and stone axe no handle.

Use stone knife to cut cat tails for plant fiber.

Use stone axe to break branches for sticks.

stone tools without a handle have a chance to hurt you and cause more fatigue.

No way you can shop down a tree with the axe without a handle.

Use the sticks, plant fibers and the stone tools to upgrade your tools.

That would add a lot more belivability to the game. And make it in a way that makes sense.

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In my opinion, the better idea is just to use flint as a cutting tool: as knife itself, or axe if crafted with stick, or mace if crafted with log.

Flint have natural sharp edges and was commonly used for cutting leaves/wood/skulls.

It would solve problems with sterile area around spawn, when you can get tools with tossing gravel with bare hands.

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have you ever used a stone adze without a handle? you should give it a go... lemme know how your wrist feel. and what your knuckles look like. 

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3 hours ago, BigTurtles said:

have you ever used a stone adze without a handle? you should give it a go... lemme know how your wrist feel. and what your knuckles look like. 

I did it, and I had no problems.

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6 hours ago, TonyLiberatto said:

I know is not going to happen.

Maybe an addon? Who knows.

In my opinion the sequence should be like this:

Stone knife and stone axe no handle.

Use stone knife to cut cat tails for plant fiber.

Use stone axe to break branches for sticks.

stone tools without a handle have a chance to hurt you and cause more fatigue.

No way you can shop down a tree with the axe without a handle.

Use the sticks, plant fibers and the stone tools to upgrade your tools.

That would add a lot more belivability to the game. And make it in a way that makes sense.

What you're suggesting is more realistic, not more believable.

I can believe that once you've crafted a stone axe head you can relatively easily fashion a handle out of a bone or a stick and then affix it in a suitable fashion.

If you want to go for realism, then some stone types (e.g. most sedimentary rocks) would also be completely useless as stone tools.

 

There's a phrase used in theatre, "suspension of disbelief" that applies very well in this game context.

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5 hours ago, ChunkHunter said:

What you're suggesting is more realistic, not more believable.

I can believe that once you've crafted a stone axe head you can relatively easily fashion a handle out of a bone or a stick and then affix it in a suitable fashion.

If you want to go for realism, then some stone types (e.g. most sedimentary rocks) would also be completely useless as stone tools.

 

There's a phrase used in theatre, "suspension of disbelief" that applies very well in this game context.

Well I will now have to insist that if something is more realistic it is also more believable. You cannot have one without the other. After all for something to be believable it means that people are able to believe it is real. Just read the Definition of the word.

I agree also that the more realistic way to go about stone tools would be to make it so some sedimentary stones would not work for tools, but now we get into a bigger problem for gameplay. As if you spawn in a place with only that kind of stone you cannot survive.

Like I said I do not Believe the Dev's will work stone age in  progression the way I proposed, that's why I said maybe it would be a good idea for a Addon.

For the little I know about code It does not seem like much and is something that many have asked before, specially the part about needing plant fibers to tie the tool to the handle.

When I talked about the hand axe, the idea is that you need a tool to brake branches for handles. The sticks you can find under a tree are dry wood and not good for handles. 

But other than that, I think you are in your right to not like the idea and even consider it unnecessary for the game. Civilized people are able to disagree in a polite and courteous way.

Peace and love.

 

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as you say, we will agree to disagree on this point :)

Pace

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There doesn't seem to be any real need to impose consistency in terms of stick consumption for  stone tools, just because thats how vanilla does it.

I mean, the entire point is to be a total conversion away from vanilla, and the stone age is a decidedly different tech type than any of the metal working, so conceptually having things be simpler and work differently shouldn't be a problem at all.

It isn't too much skin off the back of a user to have to get a stick, but if one happens to KNOW that many of real stone tools didn't actually need handles, and that such would've actually required some attachment method (like lashings) and actually been a bit more complicated than the methods used to attach many metal tool heads to their handles the inability to just do proper flaking and immediately use the tool can be a bit immersion breaking, 

its not the worst thing in the world. Kitty knows I've complained about this in the past, but I can live with it as is.. it just seems like giving up the opportunity to make this make sense, given that TF2 is already stated to be a completely different mod, and that TFC is total conversion, there is no particular reason to stick to the way things were done before. consistency is now out the window except for internal arguments for how things will be done within TFC2 itself.

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"If you want to go for realism, then some stone types (e.g. most sedimentary rocks) would also be completely useless as stone tools. "

I actually support this idea, but stone-type specificity has been proven to be a bit onerous at times, depending on how the worldgen works out.

If you could somehow tweak it so that at least one appropriate region of tool-usable stone would generate somewhere on the surface of each hex island, or each hex island within some N grid size, then perhaps it would be acceptable, but acting as too much of a block to gamers even beginning to play would put realism too far above fun. If it were to be done, they would have to be very very careful not to make it too tedious.


I have long been of the opinion that the stone-age stages do not actually last long enough. There needs to be a bit of a progression and more to do during the stone age so that players don't feel like they have to find metal right away to be able to do anything. 

Edited by kotoroshinoto
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2 hours ago, kotoroshinoto said:

"If you want to go for realism, then some stone types (e.g. most sedimentary rocks) would also be completely useless as stone tools. "

I actually support this idea, but stone-type specificity has been proven to be a bit onerous at times, depending on how the worldgen works out.

If you could somehow tweak it so that at least one appropriate region of tool-usable stone would generate somewhere on the surface of each hex island, or each hex island within some N grid size, then perhaps it would be acceptable, but acting as too much of a block to gamers even beginning to play would put realism too far above fun. If it were to be done, they would have to be very very careful not to make it too tedious.


I have long been of the opinion that the stone-age stages do not actually last long enough. There needs to be a bit of a progression and more to do during the stone age so that players don't feel like they have to find metal right away to be able to do anything. 

In nature a good place to find stone nodules is in rivers or streams. They get washed from up the mountains, so it would be a solution to either use flint or to have proper stone nodules spawn on the shores of rivers.

I actually got sad when I learn that the idea for TFC2 is to have only one rock type for the whole Island from bedrock all the way up the Mountains. Is a step away from the Realism that brought so many players to this mod.

One of the things I like about tfc is to see different stone colors on mountains, also to be happy when I find a hot spring, because it let's me know what is the underlying rock type.

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given that vanilla already introduced a few built in rock types beyond basic stone, perhaps that could provide a basis for there being more than one for TFC2.

making TFC2 even more simplified than vanilla as far as rock types would be a bit of a shame.

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@Kittychanley I agree than generally speaking consistency serves the best interests of the mod, however one can make the argument for differentiation of mechanics as far as the the stone age goes. I don't really think it serves the mod well to make it behave the same as the metal tools purely for the sake of that. Metalworking and stone-working should be different, it would make sense for them to be different, not because of realism, because I know you target playability and believability and NOT realism, but also because there isn't any particular for sticks in all cases. 

Its different enough from vanilla that users are all over the wki anyway much of the time, so I really don't think that it would be too confusing for people if the stone age had slightly different, but simpler, mechanics and recipes.

its still up to you guys of course. Its not like it'll be harmful to have to get a stick.

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