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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
kickinit233

Fish, invterabrates, and other search and shore animals

29 posts in this topic

Tfc is full of atmosphere and enviroment however the seas, shores, and lands are pretty barren. So first I would like to implement the following items.

1. Fishing jugs: floating jugs with hooks attached to them, bait them walk away and wait. Only able to catch small and tiny fish. Created with clay and twine. Prone to breaking. You cannot use them in the sea. The payoff is not significant as they can only truly catch morsels of food. 

page1-1275px-Jug_Fishing_Image.pdf.jpg

2. Hand trawel: used to dig up buried in the sand or mud. A plow like instrument that you drag behind you. Drains energy and slows you down. It can be used in sand and mud. Catches molluscs, tiny eels, and shellfish.

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3. Lobster trap: used to catch lobsters and crabs. When placed in freshwater it can catch freshwater crabs and crayfish. When in salt water it can catch lobsters and crabs. Must be baited in order to function.

4. Shrimp trap: used to catch shrimp and krill. Can only be placed in salt watee. Once baited it can catch both shrimp and krill. Krill is not extremely nutritious but is the largest source of protein in the world.

5. Fish trap: a small fish trap. The trap can be placed in both fresh water and salt water. Must be baited. Is only capable of catching small and medium fish. In salt Walt water it cannot be placed more than 4 blocks under water.

images-4.jpg

6. Fish net: similar to a lead, you post on on the shore and coral fish. A high price to pay takes a stack of twine to make it. The only method to catch large fish. Able to catch medium and large fish. 

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7. Eel trap: used to trap eels. Eels can be small, medium, or large. Placed in fresh water. Must be baited with meat. The eels it catches are a good source of fat and nutrients.

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8. Fishing Spears: various types of fishing spear with different statistic. The main types of statistics are 1. Catch rate: the chance you get a fish 2. Escape rate: the rate of which the fish can escape. 3. Damage rate: how much meat is damaged in the process  (yes you can loose meat depending on what type of spear it is)

Hook spear: low catch rate (hard to catch), low escape rate (hard for the fish to escape), low damage rate (minimal damage to the meat)

images-5.jpg

Four pronged spear: high catch rate, high escape rate (high chance for fish to escape), and high damage rate (high damage to the meat)

20130903-fishSpear-001-624x468.jpg

Prong spear. Medium catch rate, medium escape rate, and low damage rate.

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Animals to add:

1. Various fish types with fish biomes like aquaculture.

2. Eels

3. Various types of shellfish 

4. Various types of crustaceans. Crayfish, lobster, crabs, etc.

5. Jellyfish: passive but venomous, causes damage upon touch.

6. Sea snakes: very venomous but neutral 

7. Barnacles

8. Sea cucumber: not so tasty but edible.

9. Gooey ducks: look them up

10. Sea urchin: spiky but delicious 

11. Isopods

12. Krill: can be cooked, dried, or preserved.

13. Anemones

14. Sponges

15. Various amphibians like frogs (some are edible), salamander  (some are edible), toads (some are edible), and newts (some are edible).

16. Various fresh water and salt water turtles.

Plants:

1.Various seaweed http://www.gallowaywildfoods.com/edible-species/seaweeds/ a list of edible seaweed

2. Various algae. List of edible algae https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Edible_algae

That's all folks.

Edited by kickinit233
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I am always up for more sea life, but before you do that shouldn't you have coral reefs for fish and sponges, kelp forests for urchins, etc. Most the time when I see all of that combined it's in a mod of it's own, which just means it's a huge undertaking being added to TFC 2 which is another huge undertaking.  

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10 hours ago, Stroam said:

I am always up for more sea life, but before you do that shouldn't you have coral reefs for fish and sponges, kelp forests for urchins, etc. Most the time when I see all of that combined it's in a mod of it's own, which just means it's a huge undertaking being added to TFC 2 which is another huge undertaking.  

True, but I wouldn't of suggested it if I didn't think it would add depth and hours of gameplay to the mod.

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You'll have to explain to me how it adds hours of gameplay. To me it looks like you've just suggested eye candy and easier ways of fishing.

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Eye candy? What I suggested was along the lines of mariculture as in harder fishing. Traps aside however given you have to give them a constant supply of bait. That aside the hand trough is very labor intensive to use. The only "easy" is the fish jug which can only catch small fish.

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Eye candy, decorative, ornament, visually appealing but functionally unimportant. Could you elaborate on how these traps would be constructive and used in game? Like what makes the hand trough labor intensive game wise? Is it different then going up to a specific spot on the beach with trowel in hand and clicking?

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2 hours ago, Stroam said:

Eye candy, decorative, ornament, visually appealing but functionally unimportant. Could you elaborate on how these traps would be constructive and used in game? Like what makes the hand trough labor intensive game wise? Is it different then going up to a specific spot on the beach with trowel in hand and clicking?

Updated the post to try to clear up confusion.

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Some good ideas, some seem a bit redundant.  I do think it'd be nice for the game to have some viable fisherman life going on.  In the course of our discussions in the agriculture thread, on how to make agriculture harder and more tiered, it was pointed out that if agriculture is too hard, there needs to be other ways for people to survive while they get their agriculture skill up.  Aquaculture might be such a way.  Well, I mean not aquaculture per se maybe, but living off the water, I guess.  That and foraging, and hunting animals. 

CLAM DIGGING

Spoiler

Digging up clams for instance, has been suggested before.  On SMP servers it might be a good way for newbs around spawn to find food, when the seaweed in the area has been depleted.  In terms of mechanics, it could just be a % chance to drop a clam when you dig the sand.  But if that's all there is to it, you can dig them up in a desert.  So there needs to be conditions.  The sand needs to be adjacent to a saltwater source block.  But I'm not sure block breaking can check that.  So it might require a special 'clam rake' tool, and use a minigame or right clicking.  It'd be nice if there were a way to tell if a block of sand was just recently placed, and not have it yield a clam if it was placed in the last 24 hours or so.  Not sure if that's technically feasible.  But, clams would be renewable.  Maybe a random crab is a rare reward.  Crayfish could work the exact same way, but from gravel, adjacent to freshwater.  These things contribute to overworking a chunk.

BARNACLES & OTHER STATIONARY LIFE

Spoiler

Barnacles could be on rock faces in saltwater, and might even regenerate (within limits)  They'd basically be like sulfur - a barnacle block would cover all adjacent solid faces with barnacles.  The preferred harvest tool would be a knife.  Without a knife they'd take forever. They'd only generate in the top 3 layers of saltwater, or one air block above the surface of the water, and only on rock faces or dead logs (i.e. pier legs).  Also they would only generate in certain chunks, like wild crops, and there would be a limited number allowed in the chunk.  Otherwise they'd cover literally every surface in the chunk eventually.  So maybe a barnacle chunk has a random max limit for blocks of barnacles (8-32?).  That's what it spawns with.  If the player removes some or all, they slowly replenish over time, via random block tics, like sulfur, until they reach the maximum for that chunk.  This system could be used for other special ocean plants or life.  Sponges, special seaweed, pearl oysters, starfish, urchins etc.  Anything that's stationary or basically so. 

SPEAR FISHING

Spoiler

Spear fishing would indeed be good.  It may be best if it were simply the player using a javelin on actual fish mobs, since they're already in game (3 types of fish spear definitely seems excessive to me).  In either case, fish mobs in quantity can cause lag, especially on large SMP servers probably, so you don't want tons of them just hanging out.  Best to allow the player to try to summon them.  So the player needs to have some sort of chum they can use.  Maybe as simple as a piece of meat.  Though it would be interesting if different types of meat/chum had chances to attract different fish.  Fish summoned by chum only persist for a little while, then despawn, to conserve processor resources.  Now, if you're using meat to chum for fish, you need to be able to make a 'profit' on that.  So fish need to have a decent chance of yielding more meat than the amount of chum required to tempt them.  Now we know TFC2 will probably have an Ark-style spoilage system.  So maybe meat doesn't vanish when it spoils, but leaves a piece of spoiled meat.  The player could then use spoiled meat and not be out actual food.  But it'd still be good if they had a way to attract fish when they don't have meat (after all, maybe that's why they're spear fishing - they have no food!).  So it might be good for fruit and vegetables, as well as clams, to have a chance as well (but lower).  Clams could spoil very fast, so the player pretty much has to eat them immediately, or use them as fish bait.  This might not be as effective in freshwater.  You'd mostly get turtles and small panfish.  Fishing skill could affect the chance to actually attract a fish, as well as the size of the fish attracted.

So those are very basic things - dig for clams/crayfish, scavenge barnacles (neither skill affected), or spearfish.  All require only the most basic materials.  Beyond that, things might require more resources.

FISHING RODS of course require string.  Not necessarily easy to get.  Heavily dependent on player skill.  Only way to get the biggest fish.  Fishing could be expanded quite a bit more.  I'll leave that for now though.

TRAPS

Spoiler

Fish/eel traps might be a good use for reeds as a crafting material.   I don't think you need separate eel traps - one trap could serve for fish and eels.  They could wear out over time.  If they don't use reeds, I guess sticks are the next best option.  Maybe some string, but the problem, like with fishing rods, is string is not always easy to get.  If you don't have access to jute or sheep, then it's fight spiders or have none.  So that would make fish traps not part of the early survival scene, if they require string.  That's probably ok, since they're basically automated, like a sluice.  And a sluice requires you have a saw.  So you place the trap, and it places closed.  You right click on it with the bait and that opens it, so you know it's baited.  Has to be broken and re-placed to reset it maybe.  That or you right click, the fish pops out into your inventory, and then right click with bait again to reset.  Fishing skill affects the chance to catch anything (this chance is stored on the trap when it is placed).

NETS

Spoiler

Nets would presumably require even more string.  So if they take such a precious (early on) resource, they really need to provide a commensurate benefit.  There's a question of how they are used.  Does the player stand on shore or shallow water, and then just toss them out of their inventory?  They could create like, a 2x3 pattern of net blocks in the water, which the player has to mine each one to get the fish inside.  Maybe they work better over deeper water.  But then you get issues of making sure the items (net and fish) actually get picked up, and don't go to the bottom of the sea.  They could be used like gill nets; tossed into the ocean, and they leave a float on top, which the player uses to retrieve the net and contents.   In this scenario they'd be another autonomous method.

In any case, they should wear out.  Maybe the more worn out, the less chance to catch fish.  So the player should repair them once in awhile, which might take a flat vertical surface, where they right click with the net.  this places a net pattern over a 3x2 area.  The player has to find all the spots where the intersections are broken, and right click on those with string to repair that intersection.  Each time the string is used, it has maybe a 20% chance to vanish.  So on average you can repair 5 intersections with a piece of string.  Silk nets last much longer.

In both cases, again, skill is important to determine success.

So now we have a loosely tiered system of three easier methods - digging in sand, gathering from specific chunks, or spear fishing.  All three minimally skill dependent - and three methods that require varying amounts of string and attention, and all benefiting heavily from more skill.  The idea sort of being that you have three methods useful very early on when just trying to survive (maybe while you try to improve your agriculture skill) and three more advanced methods which perhaps if you choose to style yourself a fisherman, you focus on those things.  You'll probably still dig clams and gather barnacles for bait, but your major food earners will be the pole/trap/net combo. 

Beyond survival, if a nature magic system was in the game, certain rare sea life could be components in certain magics.  So maybe higher skill in fishing gives greater chance to catch/trap these animals.  Perhaps if you find a pearl oyster chunk, you can construct special oyster habitat blocks that expand them beyond the chunk limit.  Depending on how the food system works, rare fish/mollusks could be ingredients in extra-special dishes. 

So that's my take on how this stuff could be organized into a useful system.

 

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I like some things you are suggesting but eels and fishes do need different traps. Eels are very hard to catch and can easily get out of normal traps. But to each there own. I do think their should be different types of fishing Spears, nets, and traps as one of the things I love in tfc is the diversity, but that's just my opinion. Krill make amazing bait and in a pinch you can eat them. You can make stews out of them, dry them, or make Burong Hipon.

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The thing is, how does it fit into progression?  Are eels that much better food? Are they a special component of something else?  If so, how is their trap harder to make?  Are they harder to find?  Are they chunk specific?  If the difference is just cosmetic, is it really worth the extra item ids and dev time?  It may be - that's up to the devs - but that's why I did not suggest they be separate.  I was going for a basic setup.

Similarly with the fish spears, I think the general idea comes across with javelins.   Three types of spears seems way overkill to me.  I'd much rather have the player's fishing skill govern how well the fish are caught.  And I didn't see how it would be all that practical to have a pause between spearing the fish and having it in inventory - a time period where the fish could escape.  So without catch and escape variables built in the spear, you just have meat percent.  Which would mean not offsetting one good feature with a bad one.  Maybe the devs like the complex system, but again, I was going for simpler.

Krill and shrimp are well and good.  But ultimately a bit redundant with regular fish I think, unless the cooking system needs them.  But again, I'd be suggesting they use the same trap.  Unless they are a high tier ingredient, then maybe they require a trap of rarer components, like silk.  If it's just a matter of sticks vs reeds, or 4 sticks vs 9 sticks, that's not really a significant difference.  I was kind of envisioning the player placing these traps, and seeing what they caught.  Fish can be caught in every chunk.  But some chunks might have special catchables.  The player can only find out by placing traps and seeing what they get.  Then once they find a special catch chunk, they can try to protect that secret.  The process of discovering a secret like that is a fun thing, and it makes that resource more rare, and hence valuable, assuming it has a valuable use.   On the other hand, if all I have to do to catch an eel is place an eel specific trap in fresh water, well, that's...not exciting.  On the other other hand, if they are chunk specific AND I have to use a specific trap, that might be expecting a bit too much of players.

You've got basic ideas, but they need to be worked into the overall game scheme.  Just listing stuff is the easy part.  How would you envision these things fitting into the game overall, and also functioning amongst themselves?

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I'm currently working on a document for it. I'll try to have a rough draft done by late day tomorrow.

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Clam digging can be done with a tool that that you use on sand. When used on sand it can check if there is salt water within X blocks, if the block is at sea level, and use the same over worked mechanics as fishing and gold panning in tfc 1 use.

Barnacles could only grow on rocks touching a rock adjacent to salt water and touching another rock adjacent to air. This would cause a band two wide, to avoid crowding you could have them use similar code to mushrooms in vanilla which stop expanding if they are "crowded".

Spear fishing with some sort of bait is a golden idea. Decreases server load, adds variety of what you can catch by switching out the bait. 

Traps I agree should wear out and require bait, be under two blocks of water, and if you wait too long you get rotten seafood. If it's just bait and throw you are getting something for pretty much nothing. I mean reeds aren't hard to get and rotten flesh isn't very difficult either, unless there is no zombies.

Nets I'd make a re-skinned version of the fishing rod.

Skill can effect how much is caught, what is caught, and durability of equipment. I guarantee if I made a net and a fisherman in Africa who has been doing it for the last 30 years made one, his would last longer than mine. Probably more effective too and take less time for him to make. Hmm I wonder if you can use skills to determine crafting speed? I don't see a reason it couldn't but have never tried it or seen it done. It would have to be crafted on something other than a crafting bench which is no big deal. Looking at the code from forestry you can modify time it takes to craft something, but I don't know if that can be done at run time. If so that'd be cool as you could extend that to other things like casting speed.

Chunks effecting drops is also an awesome idea, you definitely would want to guard that secret so that chunk doesn't get over worked.

Edited by Stroam
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Traps might be a bit like sluices in that they only return minor results.  But you don't have to bait a sluice.  So if the trap require 1 piece of food to bait and you get max 4 or 5 pieces back, that's probably not too unbalancing.  Especially if a trap stores a skill variable when set, and so in early game it's more prone to 2-3 piece return.  Plus if it wears out over time.   Also if the trap only catches 1 fish at a time, that balances it better.  Plus reeds might not be renewable, so there might be a diminishing resources factor.  Or if the traps require string, there's that.  I think they could be well balanced.  I'm guessing the plan is for undead to be much less common, not the ubiquitous threat they currently are.

protecting a chunk secret with traps would be hard, since the evidence would be there for anyone to see.  But if you could get the same special prey via fishing or spear fishing with special bait, that would make traps a sort of exploratory tool, and then once you find special stuff, you catch it with spear, line, or net, if you don't want to leave evidence for others to find.

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Sluices you have to add sand or gravel. That's kinda like bait. What if spears were for fish, traps were for crabs, digging was for clams. With the new vanilla boats you can have two people in a boat so you could require nets to be used in a boat that has two people in it. The benefit is a larger haul and/or chance of catching rarer fish. If TFC 2 requires you to eat a variety of food, then catching different things could be very beneficiary. Or if TFC 2 still has nutrition you could have each thing provide a different type of nutrition. I am not sure about eels because they are poisonous. You really have to prepare them right to eat. They don't seem to be a staple anywhere from my look on wikipedia but they are expensive.

Edited by Stroam
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2 hours ago, Stroam said:

Sluices you have to add sand or gravel. That's kinda like bait. What if spears were for fish, traps were for crabs, digging was for clams. With the new vanilla boats you can have two people in a boat so you could require nets to be used in a boat that has two people in it. The benefit is a larger haul and/or chance of catching rarer fish. If TFC 2 requires you to eat a variety of food, then catching different things could be very beneficiary. Or if TFC 2 still has nutrition you could have each thing provide a different type of nutrition. I am not sure about eels because they are poisonous. You really have to prepare them right to eat. They don't seem to be a staple anywhere from my look on wikipedia but they are expensive.

Eels are only poisonous raw once cooked the poison is rendered harmless, and in the progression document I am working on they are meant to be an early food source as well as a utility.

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Gravel and sand aren't edible though.  So their loss isn't really a strategic choice.   "Requiring" two people to run a net would be bad for single player you probably meant just giving bonuses to having two people in the boat, ya?

Ya, the Japanese ate all their eels, so now they import them at great expense.  The Japanese seem to not give a damn.  The more poisonous the fish the better.  Cooking destroys the poisonous protein though, ya? I don't think it's as big a deal as fugu.

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1 minute ago, Darmo said:

Gravel and sand aren't edible though.  So their loss isn't really a strategic choice.   "Requiring" two people to run a net would be bad for single player you probably meant just giving bonuses to having two people in the boat, ya?

Ya, the Japanese ate all their eels, so now they import them at great expense.  The Japanese seem to not give a damn.  The more poisonous the fish the better.  Cooking destroys the poisonous protein though, ya? I don't think it's as big a deal as fugu.

The poison in eels is destroyed in cooking or smoking yes. And in reality pose no significant effect to humans, although if it does get in the blood stream it can cause anaphylaxis, however most of the time our stomach acid is strong enough to destroy the poison. While in the workup I am making eels are meant for a early food, the do have a second use as a source of oil (fat).

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I suppose we could have one person get 1/2 the amount and same chance of catching rare fish. based on their fishing skill. This means one person in the boat gets 1/4th the amount that two people in the boat get, cause 1 net per person, which balances out.

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On 10/23/2016 at 0:37 PM, kickinit233 said:

Here is a suggestion form of the progression

You have put some thought into this and I have some questions. What stops someone from skipping tiers? What triggers the breeding pits formation? How do you put fish in and take them out of the pits? How do you keep track of how many males and females are in each pit?

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20 hours ago, Stroam said:

What stops someone from skipping tiers?

He appears to have arranged it as a step-by-step tech tree, in the vein of Thaumcraft.  As opposed to an organic tech ladder, as TFC1 is.   So the player is presumably prevented by code from building a jug, until they've built one each of all 3 spears.  After the player builds the jug, they then are allowed to build the barbed arrow, pole poking (?), eel trap, and hand trawl.  etc.  So it straight-up prevents you from skipping tiers.  I'm not a huge fan of that (although it does simplify things), and it seems like the devs so far have opted for a more organic tech ladder.  By organic I mean that it flows naturally, and sometimes you can skip a rung.  For instance you can totally skip copper tools in TFC1.  Though you'll still need tons of copper ore.  And the products of one tier lead to the next, organically.  Use bronze ingots to make bronze anvil to make bronze sheets to make bloomery (which is a tech gate) to make iron ingots to make iron anvil to make iron sheets to make blast furnace (next tech gate).  I prefer this format personally.  It has it's own internal logic.  The tech tree format, there's no logical reason I should have to make spears before jugs, jugs before, arrows, and eel traps before fish traps.  They're all primitive technology and none produce a product that logically would be required for the next.  So that's the problem I have there. 

The system I proposed earlier did not have a natural product flow either.  But it was weakly tiered simply by the fact that the 'upper tiers' required string, which in TFC1 anyway is not simple to get.  It had some loose progression in that clams and barnacles could be used to chum for spear fishing, and those small fish could be used as fishing bait, or net bait perhaps.  But you could entirely skip the digging and spear fishing if you wanted and go straight to the upper stuff.  It was a logical system, I felt in line with the precedent we have so far from TFC1, and the fact that we've not really heard devs favor tech trees for TFC2, to the best of my knowledge/memory.

Aside from having special high value catches for trade or magic, I don't think fishing fits well as an elaborately tiered trade.  I think all it really needs is a primitive tier, and an advanced tier.  The primitive part of the game can focus more on food I think, with 3 tracks: Fisher, hunter, or gatherer.  The goal of all 3 is to get more stable.  So from fisher you proceed to...well, more advanced fisherman.  Hunter proceeds to rancher, and gatherer proceeds to farmer.  In all 3 cases, once you've got your more secure food supply, then you perhaps start working in a more focused manner on other trades/professions like smithing or magic.  If you get into magic you revisit some even more advanced fishing tech to farm pearls, or catch extremely rare fish for components.  Likewise, you can raise rarer animals, or crops.  Basically, you kind of set up a primitive-->advanced progression, and anyone can be expected to do this, and it's for the early game.  Anything higher is for special cooking or magic recipes, and these can be made very high-skill portions of the tree, because they're not required for survival or progression.

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On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 8:57 PM, Darmo said:

He appears to have arranged it as a step-by-step tech tree, in the vein of Thaumcraft.  As opposed to an organic tech ladder, as TFC1 is.   So the player is presumably prevented by code from building a jug, until they've built one each of all 3 spears.  After the player builds the jug, they then are allowed to build the barbed arrow, pole poking (?), eel trap, and hand trawl.  etc.  So it straight-up prevents you from skipping tiers.  I'm not a huge fan of that (although it does simplify things), and it seems like the devs so far have opted for a more organic tech ladder.  By organic I mean that it flows naturally, and sometimes you can skip a rung.  For instance you can totally skip copper tools in TFC1.  Though you'll still need tons of copper ore.  And the products of one tier lead to the next, organically.  Use bronze ingots to make bronze anvil to make bronze sheets to make bloomery (which is a tech gate) to make iron ingots to make iron anvil to make iron sheets to make blast furnace (next tech gate).  I prefer this format personally.  It has it's own internal logic.  The tech tree format, there's no logical reason I should have to make spears before jugs, jugs before, arrows, and eel traps before fish traps.  They're all primitive technology and none produce a product that logically would be required for the next.  So that's the problem I have there. 

The system I proposed earlier did not have a natural product flow either.  But it was weakly tiered simply by the fact that the 'upper tiers' required string, which in TFC1 anyway is not simple to get.  It had some loose progression in that clams and barnacles could be used to chum for spear fishing, and those small fish could be used as fishing bait, or net bait perhaps.  But you could entirely skip the digging and spear fishing if you wanted and go straight to the upper stuff.  It was a logical system, I felt in line with the precedent we have so far from TFC1, and the fact that we've not really heard devs favor tech trees for TFC2, to the best of my knowledge/memory.

Aside from having special high value catches for trade or magic, I don't think fishing fits well as an elaborately tiered trade.  I think all it really needs is a primitive tier, and an advanced tier.  The primitive part of the game can focus more on food I think, with 3 tracks: Fisher, hunter, or gatherer.  The goal of all 3 is to get more stable.  So from fisher you proceed to...well, more advanced fisherman.  Hunter proceeds to rancher, and gatherer proceeds to farmer.  In all 3 cases, once you've got your more secure food supply, then you perhaps start working in a more focused manner on other trades/professions like smithing or magic.  If you get into magic you revisit some even more advanced fishing tech to farm pearls, or catch extremely rare fish for components.  Likewise, you can raise rarer animals, or crops.  Basically, you kind of set up a primitive-->advanced progression, and anyone can be expected to do this, and it's for the early game.  Anything higher is for special cooking or magic recipes, and these can be made very high-skill portions of the tree, because they're not required for survival or progression.

Interesting point of view, if it was possible to have the fish trap be a direct upgrade more like a natural progression, thus having the requirement of crafting the eel trap. The fishing tree would be more a direct tech tree as several of the items need more advanced technologies than others. While I was thinking the the fish breeding pits be more of an upgrade/craft either crafting the new pit or upgrading your old one thus not requiring the crafting of a new pit. Or if skill trees are implemented I think the unlocking of the tiers be through a perks, like 7 days to die.

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You could use specific bait to catch eels in order to make them more end game

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On 10/22/2016 at 11:29 PM, Darmo said:

 

CLAM DIGGING

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Digging up clams for instance, has been suggested before.  On SMP servers it might be a good way for newbs around spawn to find food, when the seaweed in the area has been depleted.  In terms of mechanics, it could just be a % chance to drop a clam when you dig the sand.  But if that's all there is to it, you can dig them up in a desert.  So there needs to be conditions.  The sand needs to be adjacent to a saltwater source block.  But I'm not sure block breaking can check that.  So it might require a special 'clam rake' tool, and use a minigame or right clicking.  It'd be nice if there were a way to tell if a block of sand was just recently placed, and not have it yield a clam if it was placed in the last 24 hours or so.  Not sure if that's technically feasible.  But, clams would be renewable.  Maybe a random crab is a rare reward.  Crayfish could work the exact same way, but from gravel, adjacent to freshwater.  These things contribute to overworking a chunk.

 

 

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Was thinking about this suggestion, but could not figure what was bothering me. Finally realized that it was the sand removal. On a server, it would be one more thing to contribute to players to leave beaches full of holes.

I actually like the idea of clams, but think it would be better if we used a sieve and right click a block of sand under water.

It could have a mechanic similar to the gold panning,  So after a while it would give us a message that the chunk was over worked.

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Would the sieve require anything unusual (like string)?  If not, probably best to just use sticks to make a clam rake.  I've never really heard of anyone using  sieve to get clams.  But otherwise sure, a timed right-click thing like gold pans or fire starters would be fine too.

But beyond that, if you follow the github progress Bioxx recently put in support for Harvestcraft.  Gardens generation is in, and I'm guessing the HC crops are as well.  I'm pretty curious if this is full-on replacing all native TFC2 crops (the ones Pam's has anyway) and moreover, are all the cooking utensils, bee mechanics, etc being used?  For instance HC has it's own quern, but I'd hope they'd keep the TFC1 quern.  HC also has animal and fish traps, which catch any and everything from fish to eels to shrimp to clams.  So the HC trap is extremely simplified, and if incorporated as-is, it would obsolete basically everything discussed here I think.  So I'm really curious on the full scope of the HC implementation, as it affects a lot of mechanics and suggestion threads, depending on just how much of it is implemented.

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