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SapioiT

magic expansion [Magic Expansion] Another look at magic and how to fairly implement it in game, without breaking the existing mechanics

12 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Hi,

Before I start, I want to say this: Hold your horses! I don't want to break the existing gameplay, but to build upon it, for better replayability.

Now, the suggestions I have will be broken into pieces, so try to make sense of it, even if it requires multiple readings of the whole text.

 

Sources of mana and the logic behind it

First of all, what would be magic? Just like light, mana would be a property of each block to be processed, but unlike light, all the blocks will have to be processed, and nothing will have to be (graphically) rendered (just update the values in the memory). There would be blocks which generate constantly (mana sources), blocks which consume mana constantly (mana sinks), as well as blocks that consume, store or generate mana at times (magic tools). A mana tick (re-calculation of the entire field of mana in the loaded chunks) will be anywhere between 10 and 30 seconds, with the timer reset (for forceful re-calculation) when a chunk is loaded or unloaded (so the mana values can be stored without artifacts around the edges).

Also, the mana will have 4 values, for the 4 states of aggregation: solid (ground mana), liquid (water mana), gas (air mana) and plasma (fire mana). They will be reffered to as Ground, Water, Air and Fire mana, for simplicity and expressivity.

The generated mana will be transfered from one block to another this way: you take the 3D field (3-dimensional vector/matrice) as a set of 2D fields, starting from top to bottom. I will explain how to calculate that a few paragraphs below. The top adds air mana at all times and some fire mana in daytime or water mana when it rains, both water and fire mana when it rains and there's a thunder, the bottom adds earth/ground mana at all times, the lava and fire generate fire mana, water generates water mana, and the dirt and ores generate ground mana. living beings also update the mana matrice, but not once every (half a) minute, but every 3 seconds (so there's a small, finite number of updates per minute). Every block dissipates 10% of the mana it has, every cycle, with the mana source and mana sink blocks (such as ores, crops and trees,  and machines created by the player) increasing their value with a certain ammount before the dissipation calculations are done (so we don't have too much of a spike in an mana after the dissipation calculations).

Each creature has a mana consumption rate, as well as a mana pool capacity. That dictates how fast can they move, and how much mana they need to attack. For example, archers create arrows using mana, and use ground and air mana to keep their shape. Thus, their drops also should have a mana value, and through processing they shall be able to be converted/crafted/processed into something useful. Every 3 seconds, they take mana from the air, if there's any in the blocks they cover (so a skeleton would and player would take from the two blocks they overlap, while a rabbit only from the one block it overlaps / is possitioned in). This also explains why the monsters are attracted by the player: they see it as a source of mana.

The mana one creature stores in their mana pool will be released into a cube of the size 5x5x5, with the center being where the core of the creature is (usually the head). Also, when a block is destroyed, it also releases the mana it's holding, and a block loses durability and quality the more mana it loses, and gains durability and quality the more mana it recives, but the last partusually requires the use of alchemy. The mana pool of a creature is directly proportional with the HP it has the mana consumption (per tick) is also directly proportional with the health, and the mana absorption is directly proportional with the health regeneration of the said creature.

Also, the way the mana spreads is like this:  the 10% it has is split into the 6 adjacent blocks this way: 4% for the block with the most mana (to create the so-called mana-veins, or rivers of naturally flowing mana), 2% for the block with the second most mana, and 1% (each) for the rest. If there are more adjacent blocks with equally big or low value, one is picked quasi-random (overwriting the variables which link to the top2  values. If all of the surrounding blocks have equal amounts of mana, the last block to be checked will recive 5% and the rest will recive 1% (each). This concludes how mana flows naturally.

 

Magic Circuitry

Another thing to be noticed is that the mana-flow calculations happen between the other 2 stages of mana calculation (mana spikes, as generation and consumption, ending with mana dissipation). I mentioned it here, because it would be easier an extension of the core mechanic. There will be crafted blocks (some which will naturally generate into the wild) which force the mana to flow into a certain direction. And by that I mean that in a cube centered on the block in cause (ranging from 1x1x1 as first tier to 9x9x9 as top-tier) with the egde of the cube being of size N, having N^3  % of each block go into the N blocks in the direction the circuitry is pointing towards. So a 1x1x1 would move 1% into the block next to it, a 3x3x3 would move 1% of each block into 3 blocks, each getting 1/3 of the total ammount taken from the (3x3x3=) 27 blocks, rounded to ceiling, so 1/3 and 2/3 would be 0, 3/3, 4/3 and 5/3 would be 1, and so on, so the tool not need to store mana for usage, a 5x5x5 would get 1% of 125 blocks, divide it by 5 (resulting in an average of 1% of 25 blocks) and moving (adding) that values to the 5 blocks in front of it (the wait it's pointing towards). But making such high-tier mana vein engine (which should toggle on right click, being disabled when placed) should get increasingly difficult, while the current game gets easier the more the player plays, in order to increase the engagement time and replayability. Will you spend the next 30 irl hours getting one 3x3x3 mana vein engine, or to get five 1x1x1 mana vein engines? Or adding 3 extra damage to one weapon, which will break soon? Or get some extra mana collected?

 

Magic Tiers

There are 7 tiers (7 deadly sins, 7 circles of hell, anybody?). I will list them in a way that's easier to understand:

- Tier 0 (no mana) -  Stone - (can be killed by a) player (without the use of mana or magic, with tools likely to be found around them) / solo threat / 1-2 players (ganging on it)

- Tier 1 - Copper - tiny settlement / camp threat / 3-5 players

- Tier 2 - Iron - small settlement / village threat / 5-8 players

- Tier 3 - Steel - medium settlement / town threat / 8-13 players

- Tier 4 - Silver - large settlement / city threat / 13-21 players

- Tier 5 - Gold - big settlement / fortress threat / 21-34 players

- Tier 6 - Mithril - huge settlement / country threat / 34-65 players

- Tier 7 - Oricharium - superpower / worldwide threat / 65-99 players

Mithril would be our world's Titanium and Oricharium would be our world's Carbon NanoFiber 3D tweaked for maximum (3D) resistance.

 

Mana processing/crafting, also known as alchemy

Aside form mana dissipating, one will be able to flow mana through the use of mana vein engines (the natural mana vein flow is from powerful to second most powerful, then equally distributed, so from powerful to a less powerful), one will be able to collect more mana by meditating (with slightly higher hunger), to flow mana into items through flowing (mana crystals acting like batteries, for mana, unstackable into the inventory), each of those having their own buttons into the inventory. Each mana crystal will have a random mana pool (acting like an item's durability, with different tiers having different multipliers from the weakest one), as well as a random ammount of mana in that pool, with a crystal having 0 mana having that crystal break.

The four types of mana, solid (ground), liquid (water), gas (air) and plasma (fire) can be combined to create other effects. For example, combining earth mana with air mana creates pressure, which can be used, for example, for the following: enchant an item to hit harder, condensate/distill potions/mixes into other items, (for example creating your own crystals). On the ground, crystals will spawn the same as the rocks, but with random proprietes generated for the item, when broken/taken. The mana capacity will be in units (so it will be treated like a minecraft tool), but it would have 4 numbers representing the percentages of each mana type (100 mana points, into 4 categories). The crystals that spawn on the ground are rare (about 1/20 of the frequency of the sticks on the ground). and have a variation of up to 5 mana points from being balanced (so from -5 to +5, being adjusted to sum up to 100 points). (So 20 in each category, with the rest of 20 points randomly split into 4)

The mana flowing will require the use of an alchemical table. The same as with the crafting table, everyone have one in their inventory (the flowing button), which allows up to 2 items (to the sides) having their mana flown into a thrid one (in the center). There will also be variations of those crystals. For example, if you have a crystal with (ground-water-air-fire) 25-23-28-24 and 30 durability and a mix of dirt, rocks and sand (crafted in the default inventory, from those elements) you can use default alchemical table (the flowing table from the flowing menu, in your inventory) to send mana from another crystal to that mix (which is crafted with 100% durability, and loses durability the more mana recives, and when reaching 0 is consumed), resulting in the mix being replaced by a man-made crystal (in this case, it will get 1 mana point subtracted from each mana type and have 3 mana points added to the type of the mix; different mixes might have different changes in mana points; in this example, 28-22-27-23 and 1 mana, and the more you keep it in the flowing table, the more it will transfer mana, and if you use ground and air mixes a few more times, it would be best for pressure spells, which can be used to make better crystals).

The more mana you send it, the more it can increase it's mana pool, and if you flow both mana and another element (such as having 2 crystals like that and one of that mix), you will recive an item with modified stats (in the example of this case, you would lose the mix and crystal in the center, have it's mana added to the new crystal, which would deviate from the previous crystal in the center by the ammount that mix is using, without having to lose mana. Also, if you want to send mana of one type, you will dissipate around you mana of the other types. So you would need to spend more time to meditate, to get that back. And you will need to spend a certain ammount of mana, in order to change the attributs. For example, 100 mana would be how much the stone-tier mana crystal can hold, and to level up one such crystal you would need 20% of that. So one full stone tier mana crystal, by recieving 20 more mana through alchemy, can become one copper tier mana crystal, which can hold 2 times as much mana, capped at 32 000. The difference between Mithril and Oricharium tier being that the Oricharium would be the next tier because processing something can increase it's level.

Next, by having more mana vein engines, you can move mana, but there shall also be blocks which can absorb mana from the enviroment, 1% of each block from the cube they're in (same, with N one of the following: 1,3,5,7,9, the N=1 being for Stone and Copper, and N=2 being for Iron and Steel.

 

Summoning & Golems

 Alright, I know some of you might be against this, but I think one shall be able to make golems at Silver level. What exactly? Using porkchop, bones, zombie flash and lots of hide, one shall be able to create a Goblin, which can be a re-purposed dog (which accepts all kinds of food) and which, if given an axe will chop trees, if given a weapon will fight alongside, and if given a vessel will hold it (be it normal, or large) and follow you. Also, if given a crystal, it will meditate and flow mana into the crystal (1 mana point flowing every second). Given a random number between 1 and 100, both included, you get that number, and subtract the ammount of each type of mana, and if the result is negative, that's the type of mana type to add, if positive, continue with the next type of mana. It would be easier to immagine it has having 4 ammounts of distinct mana, which are converted into one type and remembering the percentage of each type. And the opposite can be done for when fusing crystals. Example of meditation with a crystal (one tool can be used for meditating by default, different constructions a plater can make can be used for using more than one tool when meditating): 72 obtained, the crystal is 28-22-27-23. So 72-28=44>0 so it's not ground mana, 44-22=22>0 so not water mana, 22-28=-6<=0 so air mana point added. You keep your mana in 4 "meters", but an item holds the total ammount of mana and the percentages of each type of mana.

The summoned Goblin can use weapons and be healed with food and carry things, but you can also summon a Golem. Both the Goblin and Golem require lots of loot to be prepared before hand, as well as an Alchemic Summoning Table, but a Golem is cheaper and easier to create, but more expensive to maintain. A golem can be made out of sand (weak against air attacks), dirt (weak against water attacks), water (weak against fire attacks), stone (weak against water) for the Copper tier (so a Stone level player cannot create it), all of which require a core, which acts as a random piece of (invisible) armor. Also, a golem can carry things, but cannot use a weapon. However, it has more HP than the Goblin, and the Goblin would be Iron tier, the Steel tier would have your won Skeletons (same as the goblins, but they only accept bows as weapons, and they won't break them). The Silver would let you summon rabbits, and gold would let you summon a pig, mithril will let you summon a cow and a sheep, and oricharium will let you summon a bear (to defend your base; you will have defensive gear, by then).

 

Leveling up the player

Every player starts as a Level 0 Stone tier, and requires to meditate for certain ammounts of time. Once the level 9 is reached, a certain set of conditions should be reached, in order to level up to the next tier. Also, to level up from a tier's level to the next, one needs to meditate for a certain ammount of time, and each next level and next tier increases the time required to be waited. And I mean without moving. After a while, it will get difficult to not die of hunger, but this is where the items you make come into play, since you can enchant both armor and weapons and tools, so you would need to enchant some armor with regeneration, to beat the hunger. After leveling up, you can finally move, and that includes eating, to satify your hunger.

To give you an idea of how much one would have to wait, the each Nth level of Mth tier takes M^2+N*3+10 minutes (rounded by floor), so to reach the last level of Mithril (the level at which you can make Oricharium items), from the level below it, you would need 96 minutes. For you to reach Stone L1 you will need 13 minutes, and to reach Stone L9 from L0 you would need 10*9+3*(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9) = 90+3*(9*10/2) = 90+3*45 = 5*45 = 225 minutes of waiting, in total. You probably won't spend that much time unmoved, since the game is harsh in itself, and you will also need to eat and drink and, for leveling up, you will need quite a bit of items, so a few more hours of gameplay, for the test to pass the first tier, into the second. That would increase your mana pool by the number of tier times 10, and the mana absorption by the number of the tier. Also, each level of the tier increases the mana absorption and mana pool by 1 (one). And at Stone level you can hold 1 mana and regenerate one mana per minute (tick). So if two people meditate on the same block, and have the same level, the first one to arrive there would absorb the most. Also, by moving around, you consume mana from the blocks you're on, every seconds (same goes for the other cretures), and that mana is not absorbed, and is equal with your tier (so you don't drain the block you're in, if you're at a high level), but you also lose mana every one tick (minute), as every other mana source out there.

 

Beacons

And what better way to use the Minecraft beacons than actually using them? They would work like the normal area-of-effect blocks, but be powered by mana, and the more mana they receive, the higher the radius or the better the enchantments (the menu of the beacon). Also, multiple types of beacons should exists, with the lower level ones (Silver and above) allowing up to one effect.

 

Dungeons and Spawners

Every 10 ticks (minutes), one mob is spawned, in a random location from the loaded chuncks, in the by picking a random loaded chunck and picking the air block with the most mana, and subtracting the mana, in order to summon creatures. Each creature that can be summoned passively, should have their own mana requirements. Also, spawners would use the mana in the block they are in, and with the Mana Vein Engines, one should be able to create self-defending dungeons, which would have the mana the creatures lose when dieing be directed towards making more creatures, and if you add a mechanic of having loot drop on the ground as a block (like the stones), and have to be picked up by hand (not all loot, just one of the bonus loot for that mob), a dungeon would be profitable not only to explore, but also to make. Because with that much mana around your base and the meditation block/square/seat (acting like a seat, and if you're seated while meditating, you get a bonus mana absorption, and it can also store a bit of mana, so it is more profitable than not having one).

You can even have a whole village's economy centered around the players fighting in a dungeon, and maybe also building it. And since the Mana Vein Engines would also be disable-able, one can leave them on a wall or on the ground, so one can disable them while working on the dungeon, or while working on clearing the dungeon. of course, naturally generated dungeons would have a variation of the Mana Vein Engine which cannot be picked up, and is hidden (usually behind the walls, but not sure which one). As for the entrances, and generation, it could be procedurally generated, starting with an entrance which can be anything, from a simple hole, with or without a ladder or stairs, to a shack, a house, a villa, or a whole castle, which also acts as part of the dungeon. Also, the summoned mobs should try to stay in the area of effect of the healing beacons, which should also affect them, no matter the level, so one does not get followed outside the dungeon by too many mobs (we all know how scary the mobs in FTC can be; I, at least, do know that). Because by hiding beacons in the walls, which would be powered by the (Natural or not) Mana Vein Engines, and send a few seconds' buff ot the mobs, , one would limit the mobs from leaving the area of effect of a beacon (if a buff effect dissapeares, they should go back on their path of the last 10-20 blocks, until they get in the area of effect of a beacon), and if you're unlucky to have taken them too far away, they would roam the surrounding areas, like any mob, and aggro whatever it's hostile towards.

Now back to the generation. You have the entrances procedurally generated (i.e. SEED%100, with a vector in which you hold all the possible results, with their percentages, and subtract from the result each percentage, and if lower than zero, that's what spawns), then from that you have a series of possible continuations, including hubs, corridors, treasure rooms, their trap version, spawner version, and trap + spawner version (the spawner can bespawning a few blocks above, so we can hide it into the ground), with gaps, like the ruins. However, I think the entrance should dictate the type of the dungeon, with only a small percentage (5%? At 80 such parts generated, there is 50% chance of having a change in the type, and at 95 blocks there's 103% chance of one change) for the part generated to be of a different type than the current one. Why? because people don't always follow the same building style from one end to another, and there are times when two civilisations (in this case dungeons) meet, planned or not, and the rest is history.  Oh, and there should be enough dead ends for the dungeons to not be too big. As for the area that connects to the next one, a 3x3 should be enough, I think. 

 

Fauna and flora

We currently have many plants (even through more would be welcomed), and not many of the flowers have a utility (aside the aesthetics and making dyes), so I think they should be able to be used for mixes, which can be then flown (recive mana, requiring an alchemical table), brewed ("cooked"), and/or used for healing, repairing, or buffing either the player, equipment, or both. And to add more to it, those plants should be mana sources, so that mobs have a chance to spawn there.

 

Note: There should be more I can say about this. I will come with more details, but in the meanwhile, feel free to post your opinions about and suggestions for this type of implementation of magic in-game. I have still not covered the item enchanting, since there is much that can be done, such as using a water jug as the target item, a water mix (as a consumable, but a water crystal can be used instead, repeatetly, while the mix would be consumed, but is cheaper) and a mana crystal (as a mana source) to create a water jug with infinite water. Also, maybe a flower pot with a crop inside (use a pot on one side and a crystal on the other, to "enchant" it, then the enchanted pot on one side and a seed on the other, to plant the plant, which cannot be separed from the pot, unless destroyed) which uses mana (flowing) to grow crops (the mana crystan on one side and the potted plant on the other, and after some mana you get a 90% chance for a product and 10% chance for a seed).

 

Reasoning

- Appealing to a larger demographic (Because it's Magic)

- Aesthetics (crystals, more blocks and buildings)

- More depth (by increasing the paths of gameplay one, or a group, can take, as well as the buildings and tools and weapons that deviate from the norm, and more types of mobs, including biome-specific, and dungeons)

- More replayability (by increasing the paths of gameplay one, or a group, can take, and allowing role-playing a wider rage of types of characters / classes, without being class-locked, just level-locked in a class)

- Relatively easy to implement (I'm a programmer, I should know)

 

What do you think? Do you have other suggestions? If you do, I'd like to hear them. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

Edited by SapioiT
What do you guys and girls think?
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5 hours ago, SapioiT said:

Before I start, I want to say this: Hold your horses!

Just FYI, because I saw you made a post back in 2013 so you've been around awhile, magic isn't the forbidden topic it apparently once was.  Bioxx has encouraged discussion of the topic, and it already has several threads, including the original, and very extensive, Magic! thread.  So it's fine, no need to preface the suggestion.  It's also not going to break any 'current game' because as Bunsan mentioned, TFC1 is done.  No longer being developed.  TFC2 is being developed right now, and is still fairly early from what I can tell, so I think there's a lot of possibilities as far as integrating into the game well.

Moving on, so full disclosure, I'm not a programmer.  But in a nutshell, the amount of calculations sounds way too much to me.  It sounds to me like it'd bog down the system in a large multiplayer environment, and I'm all about supporting that playstyle.  But it even sounds like a lot for single player, to me.  Beyond CPU overhead issues, the more complicated the web of calculations you make, the easier it is for the web to accidentally be broken.  The harder it will be for someone to plug into or alter the system.  I find it hard to imagine you can't accomplish the same basic system flavor with just simple per-chunk mana calculations, rather than per-block. I think that's how Thaumcraft does (did?) it, isn't it?

The meditation thing, I'm just going to come out and say it - that is a really bad idea.  Making people sit for hours doing nothing is really, really bad game design.  You'd do a lot better to require some sort of 'meditation room' with certain characteristics, and the player must sit in the center, sit there for 30 seconds or so max, spend some experience and/or whatever materials, and then they're leveled.  That's tolerable.  And it'd serve a purpose in not allowing the player to level up just anywhere, like in the middle of a cave or dungeon.  But basically nobody is going to tolerate sitting there doing nothing for such a long time as you suggest.

I think finding crystals laying around as a general blanket is not a good idea.  Better if they're found growing in caves, or around hot springs, and other specific places.  But just finding them all over cheapens them.  And better ones should be deeper underground.  I think there really needs to be more incentive for people to mine deep underground, and crystals is a good way to do it.

In general, these kinds of mana systems, what I don't like about them is they make this homogenized system that is kind of bland.  You don't have to search for much of anything, you just absorb mana from the world.  I realize there can be a lot more detail added, but just saying, those details are what interest me, personally.  When you compare for instance Thaumcraft and Witchery, I think witchery is a better system.  It's got this huge variety of very different things to build and make, requiring actual resources rather than a bland mana pudding.  Certain aspects do incorporate a building up of mana.  But the breadth of the mod just has such a large variety of mechanics, it keeps it very interesting, and to me it feels much more rich, to me.  That's just my opinion though.  Mechanically a mana system can work just fine.  And in a large multiplayer environment, it does have the advantage of suffering less from resource depletion (I would imagine). 

 

Edited by Darmo
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1 hour ago, Darmo said:

I find it hard to imagine you can't accomplish the same basic system flavor with just simple per-chunk mana calculations, rather than per-block. I think that's how Thaumcraft does (did?) it, isn't it?

That's one tweak that can be made, and I agree with that. But it's not that much to calculate, since it would only be calculated once every minute, and not every second, or couple of seconds. Thing is, I think the chunk of blocks should not be 16x16x256 (or what the height is), but rather 4x4x4, because, otherwise, the flow of mana would have no real use, except for dungeon-making, and maybe meditating, but not so much.

 

1 hour ago, Darmo said:

The meditation thing, I'm just going to come out and say it - that is a really bad idea.  Making people sit for hours doing nothing is really, really bad game design. 

That's what I was going to edit next was. You would need to meditate for that long, if you would use no "tools". (I just added the meditation seats as an edit, just moments before you posted (and was editing the Dungeon section, before submiting the edits).

Those tools would include meditation squares/seats(which hold mana and increase the mana absorption), and some of those types of seats can also have slots for other items, such as aditional mana sources, artifacts and tools. It's just that the default meditation menu in your inventory does not offer any of those. If the level of the area you're in is too high for you to manage to make such a room (because you can't get the drops), then you can still use this, if you don't want to pick another seed and cannot leave the area. And I guess the servers could spawn you in a really bad area, like being surrounded by 2 walls and a dungeons (if the dungeon entrance is eating from a mountain). 

1 hour ago, Darmo said:

I think finding crystals laying around as a general blanket is not a good idea. 

I would agree, but such low level crystals which are mostly empty on the surface is not such a problem. Another mechanic would be merging crystals, which would "fuse" two (or more, on different alchemical tables) crystal together, at the expense of mana. In the case of the player's default alchemical table (flowing menu), you would have one side as the power source, and the other as the "sacrifice", and in the center the other "sacrifice", which would fuse into a bigger crystal of the same level. And it would hold the same ammount of mana, but just be mixing the stats, by having the lowest stat give 2 to the highest stat, and the second lowest stat give 1 to the second highest stat. For example, by having 25-25-24-26 mix with 24-25-24-26, we would get (0,-1)-(0,0)-(-1-1)-(+1+1) = -1,0,-1,2, so the end result would be either -2,1,-1,4 or -1,1,-2,4, which means either (23,-26-24-29) or (24-26-23-29). In this case, I would lose ground and air affinity and gain water and fire affinity. Which would let me use more powerful spells attacks (the crystals would need to be crafted into a weapon, for that to happen).

Aside that, one can level them up, as well, but the price is great. You would have L0 (level 0) stone crystals on the ground, and they can go up to L9, so 2^9 = 512 crystals (found on the ground normally) would be required to make a crystal that CAN level up from Stone to Copper level, and for it to level up, you would need lots of mana for that, aside the lots of mana you would need to level up from each of those 9 levels (0-8).

Of course, different grades of stones would spawn in different places, like hot springs, volcanoes, dungeons, mountain peaks and caves, but they would have a higher rarity. If one wants to level up risking one's life, one can, but one can also choose the slow and safe route, if one wishes. Having more options is always a good thing, because it would increase replayability, and the role-playing asptects of the game.

 

Let me repeat that: You can choose to wait a lot of time, just gathering mana, but that mana would be useless without ways to use it, which would require the gathering of crystals, leveling them up, making them into tools, or using them for mixes and potions, and only after you have a magic-potent piece of equipment can it use mana to buff or debuff. For example, a staff would be a re-textured bow with infinite arrows, while a want would be the same, but the want could only use weak spells, while the staff would require a lot more mana crystals in it's making. And with biomes which spawn different levels of mobs (i.e. two exact biomes, except that in one you can find more or less of a certain mob, or plant, or level of mob, or plant, or crystals).

Usually, you would need to conquer dungeons for anything past the copper level, since those could also be made with stone level crystals, if one is patient enough. But since it takes 512 L0 Stone crystals to make one L0 Copper crystal, you would need the same ammount of copper crystals to make an inon crystal. And that means 262144 Stone L0 crystals for one Iron L0 crystal. And you have to add to that the crystals which you need to empty to level up yourself, to be able to make such a crystal. And when meditating, you can absorb mana from the surrounding area, if a slot is empty, or from an item which lets you do so, if that item is in that slot.

 

To have something usable against better mobs, (which usually stay in the area-of-effect of either the current level, or the level above), one would need to grind quite a bit, but there's more end-content and more ways to get to that, one for those who want to go technologically, one for those who want to go magically, and many for those who want to combine the technological and magical advancement. A mob of stone level would roam freely, while staying away from the iron level and above beacons, but a mob of copper level would stay away from the stone level and steel level and above beacons. And, most importantly: ALL that magic is useless, if you will die of hunger, because dieing will get you one sub-level lower, down to the floor of your current level (for example getting killed at Gold L7 will get you to Gold L0 and Copper L0 to Copper L0, and that means more crystals spent to level up) and you will lose all the mana you have gathered. (That, aside having to retrive your items.)

 

The next thing in line, griefing. To combat this, there should be blocks which take a long time to mine, and even more, with the help of magic, in their making. Why? Because we don't want the dungeons to have their mana vein engines destroyed and the players have no problem doing that. So we'll make the blocks more difficult to break, and the cover the natural mana veins in those blocks. And some of those blocks would not drop anything. So many types of bricks should exist.

Edited by SapioiT
Just wanted to say that it took me almost 43 minutes to write this comment, since that's how long has passed from the moment you posted it. Also, I edited some more, for 10 minutes or so...
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Posted (edited)

...personally, if a magic system is implemented, I'd like it to go more in the direction of 'conquering the world around you' than internal magic, and to do something besides the usual 'magic in the air' thing. Fortunately, TFC's in a position to do that.
Finding magical objects, manipulating them, perhaps using the metal-working system to focus those objects for weaponry, tools, ect. Perhaps even talismans and such for other effects, or one-shot ranged spells? (A way to keep ranged attacks from being too powerful.)

The portals between islands sounded magical in some way; what if they and other structures can be investigated and plundered for more magical understanding? A magical progression system without pure-UI, tedious research.
Structures of that sort could also bring the world to life in a similar way to the new mobs. Small, overgrown ruins are what come to mind. Perhaps they could also be an alternative way to enter the discussed dungeons?
It could even play a part in the island-hopping progression system. The player needs to at least find certain types of objects to activate (or pass safely through) the portal, making them aware of the potential around them. One portal might be related to one type of magic, another to another type.

 

All that said though, I just hope that the damage amounts of TFC stay around vanilla levels. There're other magic/tools/ect mods out there which would be amazing in combination. Thaumcraft in particular, once its current version is released...which sounds pretty close to happening.
If TFC does implement a limited magic system, it could actually make compatibility easier. I'd really like to adapt Thaum without having everything immediately available at the beginning of the game. I like the idea of TFC as being a 'base game' for other things to possibly be added onto.

Edited by Pyr0mrcow
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And that's exactly what I was laying the logical foundation for. I explained how the low-level logic behind magic could work, while leaving them the freedom to customize it as they see fit. As for portals, I am more in the favor of having to work your ass  off  (I mean donkey, some call a donkey an ass), and usually only use it in case of emergency, or you're too rich for your level. Sure, if you're at the end-game, they'd become more of a commodity, than a backup travel system. But finding portals between random locations on the map, with the portals being one-way, would be awesome. We'd have the choice to prepare and take risks, for we might end up in a dungeon, or ignore it, and maybe even use a "emergency homing teleportation, in case we're ganged, or we fall into a deadly place, and be instantly teleported home.

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4 hours ago, SapioiT said:

As for portals...

Last best info available is that portals will be an integral part of TFC2, and the primary, if not sole, means for moving between islands.  If you've missed the early parts of TFC2 discussion (like, over a year ago) you might want to check out this post, which links to some of the more salient discussions, especially those in which Bioxx was involved.  TFC2 is going to be very different from TFC1 in terms of world structure.  At least, that's the last word we've heard.

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Posted (edited)

There can still be, so long as most portals are one-way-only, so you have to search for your way back. You know, so you have to explore more... and actually search for your way back. Sure, you shall be able to make two-ways portals, when you level up, or choose from a list of (user-made) teleporters, to go to, as well as name the current teleporter.

Edited by SapioiT
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Posted (edited)

That's not the gist of the plan as we know it.  The general idea is, conquer island, activate portals, use them to get to next islands.  If they were one-way, you would have to allow the player to boat between islands, which Bioxx has explicitly (albeit well in the past) been leaning against.  If the portals are merely the travel points between near parts of an island, there's no "exploring" to do between them to get back, it's just ocean.  The portals are not so much shortcuts, as they are enforcers of the tiered island system, because you won't be able to boat from island to island, so you *must* use the portals.   So there's really no need to complicate them too much because they're not an advantage or shortcut, they're the *only* inter-island transport.  I mean feel free to suggest alternatives (thought that'd probably be better done in one of the old threads specifically about them, such as the Boats & Ships Thread) but I'm just trying to make sure you're aware of the significant amount of past discussion about this, and that you're probably swimming against a pretty strong current here.

If you mean portals between two points on the same island, that is also of course and option, but would probably have a distinct set of rules from the inter-island system.  Personally I'd prefer to make the player do the on-island exploration, but I guess if they take you to deep hidden ruins on the same island, it'd be cool, and they could have a steep cost per use, per use, and even be one-way possibly.

As far as player-made teleporters that go between player-chosen points, sure, that's an option.  But that's different from the island teleportation system.  It'd clear up confusion a bit if the island teleportation system was actually npc boats that transport the player for a fee.  The basic idea remains the same.  But I'm pretty sure I saw something about portals in the github, so I think portals is what we've got probably.

 

Edited by Darmo
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Ow... I get it. So, are the islands in the nether, or a different dimension? Because I think it would be much better to separate the normal dimension from the dimension with the challenges. Still, I do think there should be a fee, for instantaneous teleportation. Like some coins

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Posted (edited)

The normal world is made up of islands arranged in a grid pattern, with increasing difficulty by island...when traveling north/south, I think?
I don't think that the nether has even been mentioned by the devs thus-far, in regards to TFC2. Though if there is a portal system, it could have a use. Paths between islands through an old broken down hall Nether-side, so the travel is more than a simple 'poof'?
Perhaps even a small dungeon that needs to be navigated through/conquered, since dungeons in general will be added. Part of the challenge of reaching the next area.

I was suggesting some of the magic stuff with the tiered island system in mind. Like, you'd need certain things from one island to open that island's portal, giving you some level of preparation for the next island. Activating the portal or traveling safely through it could include some very light magic/minor magical items, at least exposing the player to the possibility of it...but like other skills, diving head-on into magic might not be completely necessary.

Or, make it require quite a bit of magic, but have multiple portals, some of which could be activated solely with Metalworking; ie repairing them. Then the player has multiple paths that they can take with a small skillset (maybe some paths would require an east-west detour?), while a balanced team with different skills could storm straight ahead.

Edited by Pyr0mrcow
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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Pyr0mrcow said:

but like other skills, diving head-on into magic might not be completely necessary

1 hour ago, Pyr0mrcow said:

while a balanced team with different skills could storm straight ahead

Which is why I though it to be something useful mostly in the end-game, when the rest of the content is usually running out, by adding dungeons with increasing complexity, with the frequency of the spawnings be dependant on the number of players in the area. That way, coop games would not be exponentially easier the more players are teaming up.

Because, let's be real, if there's a weak point TFC has, it's themultiplayer becoming increasingly easier the more people are playing. The magic system, on the other hand, would aim to counter that, by offering challenges that would become increasingly difficult the more people are playing, and be directly proportional to the level of the players. After all, the mana the players consume, is mana they have stored (to level up or use spells) and which is lost in the surroundings, therefor there being more mana for the mobs to spawn the more powerful the players are.

For example, if a Stone level player comes, you might get a zombie with a sword, if a Copper player comes, you might get a zombie with a chestplate and a shaman, which would heal the zombie and itself from afar, usually a safe spot (as it would be of a higher level, therefor having to stay in the area of effect of another beacon), if two Stone players come, you would get two skeletons, if three Stone players come, you would get one skeleton and one Shaman, and so on. So if, by any chance, you get 10 Stone level players, 6 Copper level players and 2 Iron level players, you would have to fight an army consisting of 20 skeletons, 10 zombies, 10 shamans, a pigman and a chance for a wither. That, assuming there's enough mana around...

 

Edited by SapioiT
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8 hours ago, SapioiT said:

Ow... I get it. So, are the islands in the nether, or a different dimension? Because I think it would be much better to separate the normal dimension from the dimension with the challenges...

If you went and read the thread links in the post that I linked you to earlier, this is all discussed, at length.  You're making suggestions based on what appears to be an assumption that TFC2 is going to be TFC1 with magic.  That's not what's been discussed thus far.  If you want to make serious broad-ranging suggestions about large systems such as magic, you might want to catch up on some of the past discussion.

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