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      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
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      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
TheSnarkyKnight

Weapons, sheats, and ranged weapons

What do you think of this suggestion?   3 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you feel about my suggestion? Do you think TFC 2 would benefit from the things I suggested? Do you want TFC 2 to have these features?

    • Yes, they're AWESOME!!!!!!
      2
    • Yes, they're nice.
      1
    • I really feel kinda indifferent about it.
      0

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

50 posts in this topic

After a certain point, as far as the game is concerned, your variation in weapons comes down some basic weapon types with variation in skins. Then once you start playing that variation is cut down more as most people find a subset of weapons that are simply more effective. So creating every weapon under the sun is a waste. If your system was in place I'd have a sling, and long bow, sword, a basic axe, and shield.  Ranged is greater than melee if you can keep out of melee range which isn't hard to do since you can instantly place blocks. I have two ranged and two melee in case they are resistant to any particular damage type. I also have a shield which is used just to protect me till I can find or build cover. The axe would be my last option because it's going to do the worse and is mainly brought along to cut down trees. Everything else isn't much use except in specific and planned cases. If I were designing TFC 2 I'd make just the axe, sword, knife, javelin, bow, sling, armor, and shield. Then I'd post a quick guide explaining my code and let mod developers add in the rest. 

 

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Posted (edited)

On 15/4/2017 at 11:39 PM, aliceingame said:

I do agree that making every type of weapon that ever existed is a bit too much. However, the question is, what is the real difference in the game if there is 17 or 50 weapons ? I do not think that it will break minecraft to have 50 type of weapon.

There is still much unknown thing about weapon damage system, metal tier added value (damage/resistance) and how bioxx want to emplementit. But of course, 50 weapons x 10 metals sound crazy. That could be reduced by selecting what are the valid metal tier for different weapons. For example you could say that a katana can only be made of steel and higher tier. Maybe some weapob could only be made of copper/bronze.
As for the waste of time, I am sure that people would be happy to help providing texture for weapons, even 3d texture (as done for animals), to get 3d model like in Kaishi's mod or in modpack like zori3d pack, or even create addon to add the diversity we want, even if it is "redundant", as it is really bothering Minecraft players (honestly, how many power generation mod, pipe mods, storage mods, ore doubling mods are there ? and still, people use more than one of thes in modpacks). 

 

On 15/4/2017 at 6:00 PM, aliceingame said:

Kaishi's Weapon Pack is a mod that offer various weapons with different speed and damage values. Same general idea as here, it can give an idea of how it'S possible to achieve.

I like the idea of adding variety to the choice of weapon, even if at some point it is almost only for the look. That being said, instead of reducing the number of weapon by damage type, I would have a tendency to increase it and to include non-european-medieval weapons. There is many kind of weapons that were made everywhere in the world, for example, just looking at sword, you can have blades like scimitar, katana, dao (chinese), etc. and much more variation of weapon if looking at mace, lance, and other type of weapons. Yes, even if they are almost the same with just a slight speed of damage difference, people will get their weapon of choice based on different consideration. I would get a katana anytime, even if not the "ultimate best" as it just what I like the most.

3D weapon model lik eKaishi's weapon can clearly make the difference between a mace and a morning star for example. 

I am really looking forward on what and how weapon/armor will be implemented if TFC 2. Even if not in TFC 2, there could easilly be a TFC2 addon to add many weapons.

You see, I don't think that TFC 2 adding so many weapons will bother the players, I think it will  bother the devs by having them work more for each weapon.

Also, having 3D models for the weapons won't fit that well with the other items in the mod. Sure, blocks such as the firepit and the rocks have 3d models, but I think that if the items such as tools and materials have 2D sprites, weapons should have 2D sprites too. Of course if Bioxx suddenly decided that all items should have a 3D model then it would be his decision, being the lead developer and all that. But this is just my humble opinion and please excuse me if I sounded rude in any way while writing this.

Edited by TheSnarkyKnight
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3 hours ago, TheSnarkyKnight said:

 

You see, I don't think that TFC 2 adding so many weapons will bother the players, I think it will  bother the devs by having them work more for each weapon.

Also, having 3D models for the weapons won't fit that well with the other items in the mod. Sure, blocks such as the firepit and the rocks have 3d models, but I think that if the items such as tools and materials have 2D sprites, weapons should have 2D sprites too. Of course if Bioxx suddenly decided that all items should have a 3D model then it would be his decision, being the lead developer and all that. But this is just my humble opinion and please excuse me if I sounded rude in any way while writing this.

I somehow agree that asking bioxx to do everything is a bit too much. But it could clearly be done in an addon mod, like I said more than once, exactly like one of the TFC mod added some slower weapons with higher damage.

As for having 3D models for weapons, I do not see why it would "not fit with the mod", just because other items are not 3D. The same excuse could be extended to say that a mod using only 3D models does not fit with other mods that do not use it. But that is far from being an issue as block and items texture or model can easily be changed with a ressource pack. I'll try to do some basic tools and might end up releasing a modpack.

Absolutely no offense taken, we both share our opinion and of course people do not always agree. 

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On 15/4/2017 at 11:39 PM, aliceingame said:

I do agree that making every type of weapon that ever existed is a bit too much. However, the question is, what is the real difference in the game if there is 17 or 50 weapons ? I do not think that it will break minecraft to have 50 type of weapon.

There is still much unknown thing about weapon damage system, metal tier added value (damage/resistance) and how bioxx want to emplementit. But of course, 50 weapons x 10 metals sound crazy. That could be reduced by selecting what are the valid metal tier for different weapons. For example you could say that a katana can only be made of steel and higher tier. Maybe some weapob could only be made of copper/bronze.
As for the waste of time, I am sure that people would be happy to help providing texture for weapons, even 3d texture (as done for animals), to get 3d model like in Kaishi's mod or in modpack like zori3d pack, or even create addon to add the diversity we want, even if it is "redundant", as it is really bothering Minecraft players (honestly, how many power generation mod, pipe mods, storage mods, ore doubling mods are there ? and still, people use more than one of thes in modpacks). 

Wouldn't making certain tools available only at certain tiers limit the player's freedom of choice thogh?

I think that the weapons that I suggested should be in TFC 2, but yeah, I don't see why there shouldn't be an addon adding all the weapons . I might even try to learn java to help you with such an addon, but I don't think that I would be able to help you very much :D.

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Posted (edited)

Corrected some typos.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone has ideas about weapons that aren't in my list, by all means discuss them here, as I would very much like to see everyone's idea about this suggestion amd hear what other users have to say :). It would also be great to know what Bioxx and Kitty think about this, as to know if the idea is too far from the finished of the mod that the devs envisioned.

Edited by TheSnarkyKnight
Little edit.
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Bringing the discussion back to sheaths for a moment, I really like the way the Tool Belt mod works and think the concept would work great for that.

You just hold a key down to access a radial menu and quickly swap between tools.

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18 hours ago, Konlii said:

Bringing the discussion back to sheaths for a moment, I really like the way the Tool Belt mod works and think the concept would work great for that.

You just hold a key down to access a radial menu and quickly swap between tools.

I checked it out and, I gotta say, it's a cool concept and an useful thing. However, I would advise against it because of some reasons:

  1. It would add another hotkey on a command scheme that is often already cluttered by other mods
  2. It would remove the possibility of instantly accessing the sheathed weapons, thus making sheats disadvantageous when compared to weapons that are just carried in the inventory: sure, they might not take any space in the inventory, but is it worth having to pull up a menu each time you wanted to swap tools or weapons?
  3. Radial menus aren't that useful here on pc: on console they are almost a necessity because of the limited imput possibilities, while a keyboard has around 100 input ports (counting also the F keys and the numpad). It also becomes evident wehn you try to navigate a radial menu, as it's much, much easier with an analog controller than with a mouse and keyboard.

The same could be done by employing a system similar to that of Mine And Blade: Battlegear 2: there would be three slots and the player would toggle those slots by pressing a hotkey. But this brings back to the hotkey-cluttering problem... come to think of it, that really shouldn't be a problem, because:

  1. Terrafirmacraft is a total conversion and probably won't be used with many other mods.
  2. I just realized that fudge, we have a hundred keys on keyboards!!!!!

However, I would still like it more if the slots were simply accessible by scrolling over them, like Witchery's vampire abilities.

TL;DR

I don't really like the idea because radial menus are really only useful on consoles and slow down tool switching. If a hotkey system has to be implemented, I would suggest the devs look at MnB:B2. I still support the scrollable-slots possibility over hotkeys.

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3 hours ago, TheSnarkyKnight said:

I checked it out and, I gotta say, it's a cool concept and an useful thing. However, I would advise against it because of some reasons:

  1. It would add another hotkey on a command scheme that is often already cluttered by other mods
  2. It would remove the possibility of instantly accessing the sheathed weapons, thus making sheats disadvantageous when compared to weapons that are just carried in the inventory: sure, they might not take any space in the inventory, but is it worth having to pull up a menu each time you wanted to swap tools or weapons?
  3. Radial menus aren't that useful here on pc: on console they are almost a necessity because of the limited imput possibilities, while a keyboard has around 100 input ports (counting also the F keys and the numpad). It also becomes evident wehn you try to navigate a radial menu, as it's much, much easier with an analog controller than with a mouse and keyboard.

Now, I'm not married to the way Tool Belt does it, but you don't make a very convincing argument against it.  Your point #1 is that we don't have enough keys on the keyboard to waste one on a hotkey for a sheath menu, but then your point #3 is that a hotkeyed sheath menu isn't necessary because we have so many unused keys on the keyboard?  Either way, a Battlegear-style hotkey for a separate hotbar suffers the exact same flaw... though for some reason you listed that as a reason we should do it like Battlegear.  Even though we're still only talking about a single key (that I personally would map to an extra mouse button).

Your point #2 is simply not true.  I've used Battlegear and I always thought the separate hotbar was awkward and cumbersome to use.  Tool switching in the Tool Belt mod is lightning fast.

Really, it doesn't have to be a radial menu, though I don't have any complaints with one.

 

That being said, I don't know if we've even nailed down what the driving purpose of a sheath would be?  Is it simply a way to store weapons so that they don't take up as much inventory space?  Or do they provide other benefits like reduced encumbrance values for sheathed weapons (since sheathes are harnessed properly to distribute the weight more evenly rather than just having a big lump of metal in your pack)?  I know there was also some discussion earlier on two-handed vs one-handed weapons and how they would interact with sheathes, but I don't think that was ever completely fleshed out, either.

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5 hours ago, Konlii said:

Now, I'm not married to the way Tool Belt does it, but you don't make a very convincing argument against it.  Your point #1 is that we don't have enough keys on the keyboard to waste one on a hotkey for a sheath menu, but then your point #3 is that a hotkeyed sheath menu isn't necessary because we have so many unused keys on the keyboard?  Either way, a Battlegear-style hotkey for a separate hotbar suffers the exact same flaw... though for some reason you listed that as a reason we should do it like Battlegear.  Even though we're still only talking about a single key (that I personally would map to an extra mouse button).

Your point #2 is simply not true.  I've used Battlegear and I always thought the separate hotbar was awkward and cumbersome to use.  Tool switching in the Tool Belt mod is lightning fast.

Really, it doesn't have to be a radial menu, though I don't have any complaints with one.

 

That being said, I don't know if we've even nailed down what the driving purpose of a sheath would be?  Is it simply a way to store weapons so that they don't take up as much inventory space?  Or do they provide other benefits like reduced encumbrance values for sheathed weapons (since sheathes are harnessed properly to distribute the weight more evenly rather than just having a big lump of metal in your pack)?  I know there was also some discussion earlier on two-handed vs one-handed weapons and how they would interact with sheathes, but I don't think that was ever completely fleshed out, either.

The idea is to have sheated weapons not take space on the hotbar, providing fast access to the weapons, and not encumber the player like freely-carried weapons would, because I think that carrying a metal bar long around 80cm in a backpack would be pretty cumbersome. The original idea was to make weapons attack slower when outside a sheath and having big weapons being basically uncarriable outside of a sheath. I honestly don't know which idea is best, but I would say the encumberance one.

 

Also, you're right:

9 hours ago, TheSnarkyKnight said:

I checked it out and, I gotta say, it's a cool concept and an useful thing. However, I would advise against it because of some reasons:

  1. It would add another hotkey on a command scheme that is often already cluttered by other mods
  2. It would remove the possibility of instantly accessing the sheathed weapons, thus making sheats disadvantageous when compared to weapons that are just carried in the inventory: sure, they might not take any space in the inventory, but is it worth having to pull up a menu each time you wanted to swap tools or weapons?
  3. Radial menus aren't that useful here on pc: on console they are almost a necessity because of the limited imput possibilities, while a keyboard has around 100 input ports (counting also the F keys and the numpad). It also becomes evident wehn you try to navigate a radial menu, as it's much, much easier with an analog controller than with a mouse and keyboard.

The same could be done by employing a system similar to that of Mine And Blade: Battlegear 2: there would be three slots and the player would toggle those slots by pressing a hotkey. But this brings back to the hotkey-cluttering problem... come to think of it, that really shouldn't be a problem, because:

  1. Terrafirmacraft is a total conversion and probably won't be used with many other mods.
  2. I just realized that fudge, we have a hundred keys on keyboards!!!!!

However, I would still like it more if the slots were simply accessible by scrolling over them, like Witchery's vampire abilities.

TL;DR

I don't really like the idea because radial menus are really only useful on consoles and slow down tool switching. If a hotkey system has to be implemented, I would suggest the devs look at MnB:B2. I still support the scrollable-slots possibility over hotkeys.

This is a mess. I'm sorry you had to read this. I didn't mean to sound rude or aggessive while talking typing. I however still don't like the idea of a radial menu

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@TheSnarkyKnight You're overestimateing the weight of most weapons. The typical weight for an arming sword is about 800 to 1200 gramms, same with most other one-handed weapons. Greatswords, mauls and other two-handed ones rarely exceed 5 kg.

The main difference between a sword and for example a mace (other then the obvious) is balance. Maces and axes are top-heavy to apply more focre to the blow whlie a sword's center of mass is near the crossguard for easier handling.

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11 hours ago, force200 said:

@TheSnarkyKnight You're overestimateing the weight of most weapons. The typical weight for an arming sword is about 800 to 1200 gramms, same with most other one-handed weapons. Greatswords, mauls and other two-handed ones rarely exceed 5 kg.

The main difference between a sword and for example a mace (other then the obvious) is balance. Maces and axes are top-heavy to apply more focre to the blow whlie a sword's center of mass is near the crossguard for easier handling.

I know I'm overestimating the weight of weapons a lot (i mean, my greatsword weights 2,5 kg irl...) . Will probably adjust it tomorrow (tired right now). I have given such heavy weight values because of balance between the various weapons, now that I think about it. Even cavalry maces weights only 4kg in reality. I'll fix this tomorrow with realistic weights (tired after 2 classworks and a generally busy day). I would like to ask you exactly how much should the maul weight, since the documentation on that is scarce- even my enciclopedia of weapons barely mentions them, and this is a book that has lots of information on many, many weapons, even ones that were barely used at all (eg gun shields).

Also, nice to receive a new reply after a bit of time, makes you fell like you've written something that is actually read by people. Moreso if who replies seems to have more knowledge than the average on the subject :) (ancient weapons aren't a wide-spread topic where I live) .

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, TheSnarkyKnight said:

I have given such heavy weight values because of balance between the various weapons, now that I think about it.

Honestly I think your original instinct was better - exaggerating the weights for balance.  Until we know what the TFC2 player carry limit is, it's hard to say for sure, but I see basically two options - either the player carry weight will be very high to deal with all the stuff that players like to carry, or certain items are going to have ridiculously low weights.  If you google what a modern special forces soldier carries in gear, you'll probably find answers from 27 to 54kg.  So you might ask yourself how you think the game will deal with that.  Minecraft being a hoarding game, it seems to me likely the player's capacity will be much higher, just to allow for all the stuff.  And in that context, if you want to have a meaningful difference between weapons, where the player factors weight into their choice, then the differences need to be non-trivial.  And I'm guessing that a 5kg total weight range is going to be kind of trivial in TFC2.

I would suggest not trying to stick too closely to 'real life' weight numbers, because the game is not real life and the amount the player can carry is - I believe - not going to be very close to real life.  It's very possible for "real life" to get in the way of good game design.  Not saying your number couldn't use some adjustment.  But realism is not the end-all.

Edited by Darmo
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18 hours ago, Darmo said:

Honestly I think your original instinct was better - exaggerating the weights for balance.  Until we know what the TFC2 player carry limit is, it's hard to say for sure, but I see basically two options - either the player carry weight will be very high to deal with all the stuff that players like to carry, or certain items are going to have ridiculously low weights.  If you google what a modern special forces soldier carries in gear, you'll probably find answers from 27 to 54kg.  So you might ask yourself how you think the game will deal with that.  Minecraft being a hoarding game, it seems to me likely the player's capacity will be much higher, just to allow for all the stuff.  And in that context, if you want to have a meaningful difference between weapons, where the player factors weight into their choice, then the differences need to be non-trivial.  And I'm guessing that a 5kg total weight range is going to be kind of trivial in TFC2.

I would suggest not trying to stick too closely to 'real life' weight numbers, because the game is not real life and the amount the player can carry is - I believe - not going to be very close to real life.  It's very possible for "real life" to get in the way of good game design.  Not saying your number couldn't use some adjustment.  But realism is not the end-all.

Well then, lets wait and see. I don't think the weight system has been introduced in the currents builds, so we'll have to wait a bit for that. I personally think that the carry limit should be something high enough to not continously pester the player with overburdenance, but still a value that makes it so the player must keep an eye out for it. Maybe 80-100 kg? What would you think about that? 

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, TheSnarkyKnight said:

Well then, lets wait and see. I don't think the weight system has been introduced in the currents builds, so we'll have to wait a bit for that. I personally think that the carry limit should be something high enough to not continously pester the player with overburdenance, but still a value that makes it so the player must keep an eye out for it. Maybe 80-100 kg? What would you think about that? 

Last I heard, real-world weight measurements are probably going to avoided and things are going to be a bit more abstract/relative. I think it might be more useful to simply say that a particular weapon weighs X number of ingots worth of it's base metal, then everything scales automatically depending on what Bioxx sets an ingot to weigh.

 

Edit:

This would make intuitive sense for the player, as well, since they would expect a finished item to weigh roughly the same as the materials that went into it.

Edited by Konlii
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Through out history different weapons and armors were developed in response to new difficulties and crafting advances. What do people think of having certain recipes unlocked by achievements? For instance needing to kill something using a projectile before unlocking the ability to make a shield. Basically locking armor effective against certain types of weapons until you defeat something with that type of weapon. Also locking weapons until you defeat something that is protected against that type of weapon. People might say you get a chicken and egg issue but you really don't. You develop basic weapon, that weapon gets used against you so you develop armor to protect against that weapon, you develop new weapon to make the armor less effective and the cycle continues. There needs to be some limiting factors to stop armor that protects everything or weapons that beat all protection but stuff like that is already being discussed. Now not everyone wants to have to go through an achievement checklist so at some level of tech there should be a way to teach people recipes. That way not everyone has to do everything. For instance I cheated in dragon bone weapons and armor in skyrim because for some reason no blacksmith in the game knew how or could learn how to make them and I didn't want to waste time and skills points on smithing.

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4 hours ago, Stroam said:

What do people think of having certain recipes unlocked by achievements?

Not totally opposed, but not wild about it.  Logically I'd think a shield would make more sense if you killed a missile-using enemy to unlock it - the assumption being it used it's missiles on you, so you decide you need a shield.  At a minimum, if killing with missile is the gate, it needs to be an actually threatening enemy.  No killing rabbits and chickens to unlock shields. 

As for armor, I think it remains to be seen how armor shakes out.  Will there even be different types with different resistances?  Or will it merely be differences in effective tier level, and maybe encumbrance?  Unless the differences are significant, I'm not really a fan of unlocking.

Weapons, so what would the player start with, a knife, axe, and a javelin?  Everything else (presumably at least sword and mace) would have to be unlocked?  If it's only mace and sword, I don't know that there's much point in gating them.  I have a hard time imagining a much larger resistance array as far as weapons go, if we're going by damage type.  I'd forsee people grousing over maces, as that's probably the very first kind of weapon mankind ever had.  I guess to me in general it'd make more sense to have weapons unlocked by obtaining an example of that weapon from an enemy.  Even armor could work that way.  And then you wouldn't automatically unlocked things the first time, assuming mobs dropping weapons and armor is rare.  That might make it less a matter of checking off a box, and more of a surprise-reward-drop situation.  Which might be more enjoyable.

By 'protected' do you mean has innate or armor resistance?  Because while skeletons are common in vanilla, I'm hoping that in TFC2 they will be far less common.  I would think that there would be humanoid mobs (goblins, orcs, troglodytes, etc) that would fill in the 'general threat' roster.  With more resistant mobs being perhaps more rare.  That could be totally off though. 

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Darmo said:

Not totally opposed, but not wild about it.  Logically I'd think a shield would make more sense if you killed a missile-using enemy to unlock it - the assumption being it used it's missiles on you, so you decide you need a shield.  At a minimum, if killing with missile is the gate, it needs to be an actually threatening enemy.  No killing rabbits and chickens to unlock shields. 

So you start with stone tools. Then you kill a non passive creature and unlock spear. You get hit by a projectile and you get leather and a shield. You kill something with leather armor or a shield and find your spear doesn't do much so you unlock stone mace. You take x damage from a blunt damage you unlock padded armor. You kill a few things with padded armor you unlock swords. Skipping forward you get damaged by fire, lightning, etc and randomly unlock an armor recipe that's better against that damage type. There's a system in place where protection from a particular element takes a sheet of special metal and each sheet of that material added to the armor reduces damage from that type of element by 10%. The more sheets you add to your armor the more you are slowed down.  

You are probably correct that it's way to early to have this discussion. Might be more appropriate once stone age weapons and armor are implemented. 

Edited by Stroam
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I like the idea of having to unlock technological advancements, however I don't think that it should really apply to ALL weaponry, only to advanced stuff, while the basics should be available from the start. You could start with the ability to make primitive maces ,spears and slings along with "hide" armour (litterally some animal furs and skins cobbled together with some vines or some other early game, low quality string substitute or- even worse- just draped on the player), while you would be able to advance in "technology" after doing some certain things. For example, you could develop the shortbow either after struggling to kill an enemy at higher distance with the sling or after seeing a bow used by an npc (enemy or not is not important) or a more advanced player, maybe implementing both ways to give players more freedom in the way they advance through the tech tree. You would unlock waraxes and swords (as well as metal maces and spears) once you started metalworking, or maybe after fighting enough enemies that would require you to use that weapon to beat easily: a lot of shield-using enemies for the axe and a lot of nimble enemies for the sword, and certainly you would think of making a hammer only after fighting an heavily armoured (read: plate armour or some kind of tough natural armour, like a rocky exoskeleton) opponent. As for two-handed weapons, I think you should unlock them after fighting particularly beefy (both in size and in health) opponents.

TL;DR

I agree with tiered progression to a degree. I think that it shouldn't be too obvious, as in "Kill 30 dudes with a spear to unlock a mace", but done in a way that the player would unlock particular pieces of equipment after he/she has an actual use for them (hammer after fighting heavy armour, shield after being pelted with ranged weapons, bow after first long range engagement etc) OR after witnessing someone else using that piece of equipment many times; this could even tie in with Rowist's books suggestion, allowing more experienced players to write books that would allow nooblets to progress faster.

 

Did a small change to the shields, tell me what you think of it.

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Posted (edited)

Thaumcraft 5 had a good progression system in that regard. Learning about the world around you and applying your knowledge, or reacting to what you see. Dispensing that knowledge afterward in multiplayer.
Personally, I'd like to see a mixed approach. No 'locked' research (as to not annoy vets having to unlock something for the fifth time), but at the same time, providing the player with enough guidance that they don't have to open a browser and read through pages upon pages to understand the game. There's been a lot expressed on that front to begin with; providing information in a way that feels natural, leaving things to be discovered.
So, a system where information can actually be discovered in-game through a natural-feeling process.

With 1.12 there's the Advancements system and a recipe search function within the inventory, and it'd be a perfect fit. Basically a more readily editable version of Achievements, with branches/tiers and more display options. Good opportunity for a little in-game flavor text, too; treat it like research, with the character expressing their thoughts.
But yea.
Experience or see something in the world, receive a related advancement, giving the player information/an idea of how to craft it (or showing the actual recipe right there if possible).

Example:
  - Have a branch named something like 'Equipment'.
   + Within that branch, give an advancement at the start, giving information about basic tools, and how to craft them.
   + Branch can be added to with experience; come within range of an animal that flees, get information about Javelins.
   + Get hit by an arrow, Advancement talking about Shields.
   + Health drops below 50% as a result of external entity damage, get an Advancement telling the player about Armor.
 - 'Heavy Industry' talking about metals
   + Tabs about metalworking
 - 'Agriculture'
   + Animal husbandry
   + Crop care

Get more advanced with each tier of a branch.
Add an extra condition for unlocking advancements, by crafting a related item, so vets can skip steps. i.e. Make armor, get armor advancement without having to do it the normal way.
 

Edited by Pyr0mrcow
duct tape
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On 11/7/2017 at 4:28 AM, Pyr0mrcow said:

Thaumcraft 5 had a good progression system in that regard. Learning about the world around you and applying your knowledge, or reacting to what you see. Dispensing that knowledge afterward in multiplayer.
Personally, I'd like to see a mixed approach. No 'locked' research (as to not annoy vets having to unlock something for the fifth time), but at the same time, providing the player with enough guidance that they don't have to open a browser and read through pages upon pages to understand the game. There's been a lot expressed on that front to begin with; providing information in a way that feels natural, leaving things to be discovered.
So, a system where information can actually be discovered in-game through a natural-feeling process.

With 1.12 there's the Advancements system and a recipe search function within the inventory, and it'd be a perfect fit. Basically a more readily editable version of Achievements, with branches/tiers and more display options. Good opportunity for a little in-game flavor text, too; treat it like research, with the character expressing their thoughts.
But yea.
Experience or see something in the world, receive a related advancement, giving the player information/an idea of how to craft it (or showing the actual recipe right there if possible).

Example:
  - Have a branch named something like 'Equipment'.
   + Within that branch, give an advancement at the start, giving information about basic tools, and how to craft them.
   + Branch can be added to with experience; come within range of an animal that flees, get information about Javelins.
   + Get hit by an arrow, Advancement talking about Shields.
   + Health drops below 50% as a result of external entity damage, get an Advancement telling the player about Shields
 - 'Heavy Industry' talking about metals
   + Tabs about metalworking
 - 'Agriculture'
   + Animal husbandry
   + Crop care

Get more advanced with each tier of a branch.
Add an extra condition for unlocking advancements, by crafting a related item, so vets can skip steps.
 

That would probably be for the best, however I'm not sold on the vanilla crafting guide. I don't even know if further recipes can be added to it, and even if it is possible no mod has done that yet... It would be really useful however if the recipes were displayed that way. Would save the devs the effort of coding an in-game guide.

 

On 6/5/2017 at 9:05 PM, Konlii said:

Last I heard, real-world weight measurements are probably going to avoided and things are going to be a bit more abstract/relative. I think it might be more useful to simply say that a particular weapon weighs X number of ingots worth of it's base metal, then everything scales automatically depending on what Bioxx sets an ingot to weigh.

 

Edit:

This would make intuitive sense for the player, as well, since they would expect a finished item to weigh roughly the same as the materials that went into it.

In light of how the weight system works in the current builds, I think that your "ingot" measurement system is the best option and the most intuitive. +1 to you, mah friend.

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On 7/14/2017 at 10:21 AM, TheSnarkyKnight said:

That would probably be for the best, however I'm not sold on the vanilla crafting guide. I don't even know if further recipes can be added to it, and even if it is possible no mod has done that yet... It would be really useful however if the recipes were displayed that way. Would save the devs the effort of coding an in-game guide.

I've messed around a bit in 1.12 and I don't know if I'm just not used to it yet, but I'm not sold on the vanilla recipe book either.  I ended up installing JEI anyway for recipe lookups.

do like the json-based recipes they introduced, though.  The Recipe Manipulator mod exposes that to the user, but I would be surprised if that functionality doesn't find its way into Forge itself somewhere down the line.  I would love to see TFC crafting interfaces using json recipes, either way.

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Two things. You probably won't see the vanilla recipe book being used too much before the 1.13 update since they seem to have saved all the major changes for that. Also, you are getting a little far from the subject of weapons and weapon holders.

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Rewritten the weight values to represent the materials used. I think that this way it's still balanced, but let me know ;also I realize that these values rely heavily (heh heh heh) on how much an ingot weights, but as Konlii said, they are far more intuitive than an abstract   "2 kg". I personally feel that an ingot should be pretty heavy, as irl ingots are usually made to store and transport big quantities of metal.

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4 hours ago, TheSnarkyKnight said:

Rewritten the weight values to represent the materials used. I think that this way it's still balanced, but let me know ;also I realize that these values rely heavily (heh heh heh) on how much an ingot weights, but as Konlii said, they are far more intuitive than an abstract   "2 kg". I personally feel that an ingot should be pretty heavy, as irl ingots are usually made to store and transport big quantities of metal.

As it is, if you read the first post on Encumbrance inventory it most likely is going to be in units of stone.

 

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