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Background: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
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      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
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Cannon0006

Paper Making Process

11 posts in this topic

While I know paper is not a greatly used resource, even in vanilla minecraft, I believe it is a bit to easy to make paper. Paper in the real world takes a few steps to make, most of which involves processing the wood.

The process im suggesting will be a simplified version of real world process

  1. Log is put in water filled barrel to create a pulpy slurry
  2. slurry is poured into a paper mold or paper press
  3. slurry in mold is pressed for a while, resulting in a piece of paper

this could work with most wood types, rice from pam's harvestcraft, and even bamboo, to create various paper types (the rice one could even be edible).

Paper with ink could even be used to make a map.

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Logs should be crushed with hammer into pulp and bleached. Making paper from wood is rather a modern process.

Instead of logs, macerating these green reeds in water until white pulp is achieve and putting this in press is a good idea. I implemented similar procedure in my modpack.

Original minecraft recipe looks strange (white paper from green reeds).

 

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And don't forget vellum!  I'm hoping books (and paper in general) are eventually an important thing - and with magic, I'd assume they would be.

I think it'd be great to have several avenues to get paper (and other finished products for that matter) in which there's basically an easy way, and then a couple harder ways. 

For paper, the easy mode could be papyrus plants (or reeds, I guess, if the desire is to still use that resource that is already there) found only in sub-tropical and tropical swamps.  Production could be as simple as soaking in a barrel, getting a pile of pulp for each plant, and forming them to paper via a 2x2 pattern resulting in 4 pieces of paper.  A more true-to-life process involving presses would be great, but reed/papyrus should still be 'easy mode', obtainable in the stone age.

Medium might involve regular cattails.  you'd soak the cattails in a container, then grind it in a quern (making this metal age only).  The yield would be low, maybe 1 in 4 ground cattails actually produces useable pulp.  Then, when you combine the pulp in a 2x2, you get 1 or 2 paper, rather than 4 as with papyrus (or if wanting to use only 1 pulp item id, then maybe the quern yield is even lower; 6 or 8 to 1).  The thing is cattails, while not renewable (presumably) would be vastly more common.  So that would need to be accounted for.  Maybe add a drying and pressing step, just to compensate for the great abundance of cattails.

And the other alternate could be vellum.  It could basically be an extension of the leather making process, involving perhaps 3 more rounds of soaking in limewater, scraping,  and soaking in water, with the texture getting lighter each time until it is eventually an off-white for the final product.   So if you don't have papyrus, and don't want to denude you waterways of scenic cattails, then you go the vellum route - more use for leather!  As given it's a stone age method, but could be modified to be metal age if desired.  I think it'd be fine stone age though, since it uses animals.

 

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just wanted to point out that harvestcraft has a paper bark tree that gives infinite paper.

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55 minutes ago, Stroam said:

just wanted to point out that harvestcraft has a paper bark tree that gives infinite paper.

That's fine, but I'm sure Bioxx can just remove it, if he hasn't already.  Or rather, make it's spawn conditions impossible to achieve.  An infinite paper tree certainly doesn't add anything to gameplay, I'd say.

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5 hours ago, ciekma said:

Logs should be crushed with hammer into pulp and bleached. Making paper from wood is rather a modern process.

 

More modern maybe, but its still achievable within the tech confines of what I understand of TerraFirma.

2 hours ago, Stroam said:

just wanted to point out that harvestcraft has a paper bark tree that gives infinite paper.

Im sure it would be removed, it seems kinda cheaty

4 hours ago, Darmo said:

And don't forget vellum!  I'm hoping books (and paper in general) are eventually an important thing - and with magic, I'd assume they would be.

I think it'd be great to have several avenues to get paper (and other finished products for that matter) in which there's basically an easy way, and then a couple harder ways. 

For paper, the easy mode could be papyrus plants (or reeds, I guess, if the desire is to still use that resource that is already there) found only in sub-tropical and tropical swamps.  Production could be as simple as soaking in a barrel, getting a pile of pulp for each plant, and forming them to paper via a 2x2 pattern resulting in 4 pieces of paper.  A more true-to-life process involving presses would be great, but reed/papyrus should still be 'easy mode', obtainable in the stone age.

In the beginning, it would be better to use reeds, as wood is needed for other things more in the early game, then as the focus shifts to metals, the logs could be used for a better return on investment for the paper, since at some point, unless youve found reeds, the cattails will disappear or become to time consuming to continue using

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My understanding is that using straight up wood is a rather modern, industrial process.  So maybe wood processing isn't achievable till iron/steel tech level?

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Paper as we know it is really a quite modern process. Back in the day things were recorded on clay, parchment (animal skin stretched really thin), papyrus but it only grew in Egypt and had a habit of becoming brittle and rapidly deteriorating in humid environments and in the rain. Over in south america they used string tied into knots which no today really knows how that worked. I'd like to see a return to clay tablets, though string would be interesting.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, I don't think "paper" existed until around the Iron Age, and was not made of wood, but of cloth fibers like hemp and cotton all the way up until the Industrial Revolution.

Clay tablets might be interesting if you inscribe them with mystical symbols and the magic gets "baked" right into them.

Edited by Konlii
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12 hours ago, Konlii said:

Yeah, I don't think "paper" existed until around the Iron Age, and was not made of wood, but of cloth fibers like hemp and cotton all the way up until the Industrial Revolution.

I mean, wikipedia and other webpages seem to cite 105ad as the invention of "paper".  It wasn't widespread, sure, but it existed.  Papyrus mabye 4000 years before that.  Parchment/vellum, who knows?  one account gives an important point when the egyptions refused to sell papyrus to another country, and so then that country started using animal skins.  Which are heavy and not convenient to make scrolls, so apparently they invented books.  Kind of interesting.  Though I'd imagine that animal hides were the first easily portable thing ever written on, even before papyrus. 

Personally I don't really care 'when' things were invented as much as how.  We're going to have minecarts in the game, quite possibly steam engines if railcraft gets implemented.  It's moving to a fantasy setting, and fantasy commonly mashes together a lot of disparate technologies.  papyrus and parchment/vellum were both relatively easily obtainable by primitive people and methods.  Paper from rags and other fibers less easily, but still doesn't take that much tech - I think mainly takes good sieves, which requires wire.   But making paper from wood, like straight up wood - not specific bark layers - my understanding is it requires some pretty hefty chemicals to separate the wood fibers.  Like, industrial-scale.  So to me it sets up a logical progression of papyrus/parchment --> fiber paper --> wood paper.   Not based on time per se, but based on the tech necessary.  papyrus/parchment just prepping easily available stone-age stuff, fiber paper needs wire, but could be copper wire, and wood pulp paper should require iron/steel age presses, and maybe significant chemicals.  

But the question is still, after all this time, is it justified?  TFC1 had barely any uses for paper, much less actually useful uses.  Just blueprints, as I understand it (never used them).  So question is, not only what uses will paper have in TFC2, and will it be enough to justify a more drawn-out process, but will it be enough to have *tiers* of paper production?  Some ideas:

DECORATIVE - Paper Lanterns (candle center, 3 planks bottom, 2 paper sides, 1 string top middle),     Paper Screens (Placed like doors - 5 paper in cross shape, planks in corners),  Paper sliding doors (paper screen with row of planks top and bottom)

PRACTICAL (non-book) - Blueprints,  paper maps, contracts (if we ever get npcs and the ability to hire them), nautical charts, for...reasons?

WRITING/MAGIC - scrolls (papyrus or parchment),  books (parchment or rag paper), tomes (paper). 

Spoiler

 

The obvious tiered tie-in seems like magic.  There could be some overlap between tiers, but it would be necessary (perhaps) to make the quantities drastically different to incentivize advancing to the next tier of production.  So scrolls may take 4-8 sheets of papyrus/parchment, books may take 18-24 pieces of parchment or rag paper, and tomes may take 100+ sheets of rag paper or paper. 

For the middle stage - books, it might depend on how they're used.  Small books might be two leather plus 7 paper.  Then you combine 3 small books to make a larger book.  So no process block required then.  Small books might only be good for make bookshelves, doing magical research, or scribing low tier spells.  The larger books would do larger - but still mid-tier - spells.   And then tomes would do high tier spells.

For tomes, the large of quantities of paper might require special process blocks, at least at the tome level - a book press obviously.  So you just put your stacks of paper in the slots (plus paper and glue) and pop out a tome, rather than having several intermediate combinations of paper. And by 'pop out' I mean some time later.

Or maybe the book press comes into play for even the intermediate level (copper press?).  You still use it at the high tier (or maybe upgrade to a iron/steel one - tiered book presses like anvils, anyone?), but eventually there is a powered version that is much faster.

 

Aside from the above, I'm kind of struggling to find good uses for paper.

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If not for uses in the mod itself. It would still be great for compatibility reasons. Some mods use tons of paper and with the 1.12 update and its recipie features I belive we could have many uses for paper even in the base game. 

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