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spineyrequiem

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  1. Rings and things: Chainmail armor and related items

    Thanks, but I'm afraid they're not my chausses, just a picture I found on the internet. Mine... do not fit that well. At all. I do like the idea of multiple layers, in fact I think I completely skimmed over your posts when I first read through the thread and said the same thing without realising. Whoops... My only thing to note there is that leather hard enough for armour is too stiff to be worn like cloth. Imagine semi-flexible plastic for how armour-grade leather feels. I know buff coats were a thing, but I think I'm afraid I don't know how much plate got worn over mail on the feet, as it's slightly outside my period. We only go up to greaves and coats of plates, and even those are only a maybe. It would make sense for protecting the back of the foot, as that's quite hard to armour otherwise. However, since maille feet tend to be built into the chausses, it doesn't matter too much, you could just have any damage that avoids the boot be maybe protected by the chausses. Scale armour would probably work best as just bronze chainmail, possibly with some iron as well, although I don't think it's that easy to wear under other stuff. Only a couple of us have any scale at all, though, so my experience is limited. I'd probably agree with you that overlapping scales would distribute the weight of blows better, but I can't say for sure. Unfortunately, I don't have any to test. As I said, plate armour's outside our period so I don't have much experience with how much it weighs. Unfortunately, reenacting throws us off a bit because an 18 gauge breastplate looks pretty much the same as a 14 gauge, but they weigh very different amounts. I could ask around, but there's only a couple of people who have both plate and lamellar. I guess it'd be about the same? The lamellar's overlapping, so it would probably weigh a bit more than a breastplate of the same thickness and shape. I think it's also harder to shape to your torso, given that most breastplates I've seen go up to the neck, while lamellar tends to stop at about nipple height. That said, you do see depictions of people in head-to-toe lamellar, which I presume has severe flexibility issues. The problem of making it take ages to make is one of reality vs. gameplay: whereas making plate armour is quite a skilled job, requiring specialised equipment, you can knock out mail, lamellar and so on with relatively little skill. It just takes... ages. And simple grinding like that is very, very boring.
  2. Rings and things: Chainmail armor and related items

    We do indeed sometimes do siege shows, in fact we've got one coming up at Bolsover Castle in a couple of weeks. I haven't done one before ('cause I only started this year), but I'm told we get to climb ladders and play with a catapult-ish thing. Should be fun. Scale and lamellar can totally be made of metal, and we think most of the depictions are of metal ones. Here's a picture of a few of my friends wearing the stuff. http://www.redzebraphoto.co.uk/v/photos/82399rkp/14982388802 The guy on the right has scale on the back of his helmet. I believe it's made of steel, though it might be a copper alloy, I haven't checked. Also note the line of brass down the chest of the woman on the left; scale and lamellar can both be made out of bronze and similar metals, along with hardened leather and even wood, which seems to have been used in Japan a fair bit ('cause they didn't have much metal). These would provide a way to make bronze, copper and so on armour through casting, which'd be very helpful on my world (couldn't find any flux ) Scale armour is made by sewing scales onto soft leather or cloth, and is still fairly flexible (hence why my friend uses it as an aventail). It provides good protection against everything unless you get a blade under the scales, in which case the cord gets cut, the scales fall off and you die. It's also rather hotter and heavier than mail or lamellar (I think, none of us have a full suit so I can't be sure). I'm not quite sure how you could represent this, maybe make it a bit weaker against piercing? In reality, it's vulnerable to blows from below and from the right, but MC's combat's not really set up to do that. Lamellar is made by lacing plates together, with no backing. It's much less flexible than both mail and scale (you can't bend over when wearing it, for instance), but this inflexibility makes it fairly easy to wear as it distributes the weight better than a mail shirt. In fact, wearing it over a mail shirt often feels lighter than just the mail due to the corsetting effect. It does, however, limit the number of place you can wear it - you'll notice they've only got cuirasses on, although I think a couple also had metal splints on their legs and lower arms. In terms of protection, it's very good against piercing and decent against blunt trauma due to redistributing the force, but weak to slashing because the thread lacing it together is exposed. For making both of these, I'd go for making a load of plates (through casting or blacksmithing, depending on the metal), then crafting them with leather or string to make scale and lamellar respectively. Not sure on exact recipes or how much metal should be involved, but it should, perhaps, be a bit more expensive than making it with the usual welding method. After all, making armour the current way takes ages, you wouldn't want it to become completely obsolete.
  3. Rings and things: Chainmail armor and related items

    I am indeed some kind of medieval reenactment guy. I do most of the early medieval period, from Hastings to the battle of Evesham in 1265. Here's a picture of me dressed up as a Saracen, about to charge the Templar lines; I'm the one with the blue turban.http://www.redzebraphoto.co.uk/v/photos/82399rkp/14982364202 No, the coat does not fit. I need to make my own. As a bonus, the guy next to me has a good example of leather lamellar, which was often worn over maille in the East. Assuming it was ever made out of leather at all, which our authenticity team are unconvinced about...
  4. Rings and things: Chainmail armor and related items

    OK, as someone who owns some chainmail, and has used it in combat reenactment, I can probably clear some things up. Firstly, you can't make it out of bronze, or at least there's no evidence for it being done. I believe this is because of bronze's properties: it's much less ductile than iron, and thus it's far harder to turn into rings. However, it may just be that they worked out mail after everyone had moved to iron for most things. I do know that you can make it out of brass, though.http://allbeststuff.com/Flat-Brass-Riveted-Chain-Mail-Hauberk?filter_name=brass&filter_category_id=0 Secondly, padding-wise you'd generally have quilted cloth - I can send a picture of my gambeson in the next few days if you really want, though it's currently at a friend's house. Our authenticity team is fairly convinced that leather padding wasn't a thing, as it doesn't provide much padding. It is, however, quite good 'hard' protection, and we use stuff about 5mm thick to help redistribute the force of blows on our gloves, over a layer of cloth padding. You can have leather under the coif, but it's more common to just have cloth, as the main purpose of stuff there is to stop the mail catching on your hair or shredding your skin. I tried wearing my coif with nothing under it beneath a tight helmet, and have the cuts in my forehead to prove it. Most of our padding is built into our helmets instead, although I do own a padded arming cap as well ('cause my helmets are slightly too big otherwise). Third, mail (in fact, armour in general), really does not cool you down. With the padding on underneath, you're actually in serious danger of heatstroke or dehydration if you aren't careful. After fighting for a few hours in mail and padding (with breaks, as otherwise we would have collapsed) on a fairly mild day last week, I took my padding off and literally steamed, so much so in fact that I thought someone had stoked the fire up. On other days, particularly when fighting inside, I've got hot enough that my hands started steaming when I took my gloves off. However, I have survived clubbing in padding and a hauberk at least twice, so as long as you get enough water you'll generally be OK. Fourth, mail is brilliant at stopping slashes and, after some experiments with kitchen knives and a questionable regard for my own safety, stabs. As long as you don't burst the rings, or have a blade pointy enough to stab you even through the padding (one of the knives had a thin enough point to prick me, though none actually broke the skin), you'll be fine. It is, however, as OP noted, really rubbish at stopping blunt force. Far worse than plate, which actually stops it pretty well if you have padding. Fifth, you can and do have mail for the legs and feet. They're known as chausses. Here's a picture of one. Mine still need some work, as I have to sew leather on for the sole of the foot; as far as I know, you never had mail on the sole as well. They're a relatively late invention, and were typically worn without padding, as it's very difficult to bend your legs with padding on. They did, however, sometimes have padding on the outside around the thigh, either to help them stay up or (my theory) to make horse-riding more comfortable. As you can see from the picture, foot protection is integrated almost all the time. A steady trend towards integration was characteristic of the early medieval period, and my hauberk has an integrated coif and will have integrated mittens as soon as I alter the sleeve length and attach them. This provides greater protection and, in the case of coifs, slightly lowers the weight. For this reason, you could theoretically have just two pieces in a full suit of mail, the hauberk and the chausses. However, coifs were separate for most of the period so if the devs wanted to do them like that they could. Sixth, at risk of going into too much detail, you need some specialised tools for assembling rivetted mail. This is the main one I'm not quite sure how you'd make it. Perhaps one ingot for each half, made on the anvil, then assembled in the crafting grid? Alternatively, you could just stick to hammering. It's not how you actually did it, but it does mean one less new mechanic to create. If anyone has questions, do feel free to ask and I'll try to answer. I can also talk about other types of armour, though since I don't own them it's a bit harder. Some of my friends have scale, lamellar and plate, so I've had some exposure and know the basics of construction and what they work against. If I were doing an armour system, I'd probably make the current armours a top layer which provided the greatest protection but have a chance for it to be bypassed which decreased as you went up the tech tree. Chainmail and padding underneath would then stop some of the damage which bypassed the top layer (with padding providing a small amount of slash/stab protection and a fair bit of blunt protection, with mail doing the opposite). This would mean you'd tend to wear mail for wrought iron, steel and black steel armour, but maybe not bother for blue and red steel, as in real life the amount of mail involved did decrease throughout the medieval period as articulation got better, until renaissance plate used almost none.