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MiaMia

Simple "playability" changes.

16 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I would like to propose a topic that would outline possible changes to original TFC that might be introduced in TFC v1.12.2 (if the delevopers like them, that is :) ).

But not just any changes. Nothing that drastically changes the feeling of original TFC. No changes in the mechanics of the game. Just some adjustments that do not make the game significantly easier or less interesting that it was,  but make it a little more "fair" and a bit less dependent on RNG (aka "good starting seed").

It's possible that this topic will end up with only my suggestion in it, but I hope not.

So, for starters, my suggestion:

Clay is absolutely essential in the game from the early stages, but it only generates in areas above certain rainfall value. On most servers, "dry" areas are mostly unpopulated, because everybody prefers to build their starter base close to a clay source and most people never end up moving. But I think if players were guaranteed a "starter" amount of clay almost anywhere, it would change their settling behaviours and make more spots on map interesting for them. What I would like to propose would be, that, in addition to the "normal" generation of clay clusters in wet areas, some small amount of clay (like 1 to 5 blocks) had a chance to generate next to fresh water blocks. There are lakes in dry areas and that would ensure that sooner or later a player would find some clay next to them and be able to craft a few basics (a jug, a couple of vessels, molds for basic tools). That would help in settling down. Larger amount of clay could then be mined later farther away from home, not unlike other resources (ores), for which we eventually venture out anyway.

Edited by MiaMia
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6 hours ago, MiaMia said:

On most servers, "dry" areas are mostly unpopulated, because everybody prefers to build their starter base close to a clay source and most people never end up moving.

I don't see how this is a problem... You should expect lìfinding less people in dry climates and deserts.

 

Anyway, I don't think we need this. Sure sometimes clay is hard to find, but life is sometimes unfair, too.

Thought some things should be tweaked and changed in the world generation, i think i will make a suggestion sooner or later.

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Even beyond clay, there isn't any reason to settle a dry location.

Its ugly, there are hardly any trees, fresh water, tall grass to cut into straw, and (I think) there is a lowered chance for crops to spawn. That is on top of the lack of clay.

In a historical context, this is also true. Civilizations are built around access to fresh water.

If we wanted to give a reason for people to settle in dry lands, there would need to be a good reason to settle there instead of somewhere else (for example, different animals, special plants/herbs, etc.) that can only be found/grown in that locale.

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I've been living in a dry and cold mountainous area with no troubles for almost 5 ingame years (2 real years)
Still expanding, adding structures and assigning each a function

 

Spoiler

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The old clay situation makes for a poor gameplay experience for new players.  I watched a great many lps of people who started in dry biomes, and they're hunting around for clay, not understanding why they can't find it.  These kind of feast/famine mechanics are just bad game design - it's the kind of thing that turns new players off.  Mia's idea of having limited clay deposits even in dry biomes is a good one, and I would definitely vote for it.

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I think I’d want to partly address the clay in dry biomes issue, by decreasing the amount of the world that is dry. I’d like more variety of decor for wetter biomes and for dry to be less prevalent. Or at least reduce odds of vast dry areas.

The bigger issue we need to address is the question of were the challenge will be. You don’t want to have all things everywhere as TFC is an exploration mods as well. TFC very much has a feast and famine issue for a lot of resources, which isn’t inherently a bad thing, but where it is needs to be thought out.

I like the game design of struggle to achieve a goal, but achievement also gives you something to reduce that struggle. As we get the basics in place we’ll need to decide how we are making TFC a challenge. 

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Oh I agree about the exploration and the search, but I'd suggest that the resources that you need basically day 1 are not great candidates for complete exclusion from entire biomes.  I think upper tier ores and such are much better for that.   Reducing dry biomes is a possible way to address the clay factor for sure, though I'm also kind of hoping deserts are more common and extensive.  Is it possible to prevent the player from spawning in dry biomes?  If selected spawn rainfall is below X, select a new spawn?  Difficulty levels where the player can choose to start in a harder starting biome if they want?  Or at least a popup if the player starts in a dry spawn, that explains to them that they won't find clay in the biome?

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Though I agree with the sentiment about the struggle,  bear in mind that the struggle should be something achievable. The ideal scenario would be that any starting area should have all the basic necessities. This is to ensure that every starting area can sustain a player but, at the same time, without stopping the need of exploration. What I mean is that, for example, if we spawn in the desert, the desert should have "oasis" of water and clay. The clay, as far as I remember, is needed for long trips (for water and food preservation). Now, I don't mean that every biome should have every basic stuff. No. Only starting areas. What would be the point to start in a biome where you cannot survive? That only would encourage resetting the world until you find a biome where you can survive. Thus negating the idea of struggles. Now, the ideal would be that each biome have different challenges; the desert should have less resources and more lethal climate than a jungle, but the jungle should have more dangerous animals and less maneuverable spaces.

 

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Feast or famine scenarios are only bad if you are unable to overcome the obstacle such as at the beginning of the game. No matter how much work that is put into making sure there's a viable strategy no matter where you spawn is only going to be good for single player. In multiplayer servers since you spawn with nothing the immediate area usually gets stripped of the starting resources first. Also, new players will not know how to start and can become frustrated when they are both trying to learn and not finding the resources they need. I suggest a starting package that is enabled by default. This package would contain all the supplies to survive the first few nights as well as a starting guide to help new players out. I'd go so far as to tag the starting items so that players keep the items on death (not given new ones on each death). The benefits of this are that it requires no changes to world generation and is multiplayer friendly allowing players to travel far enough to find a suitable starting area. You can already see this approach being used in a lot of successful modpacks.

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This is something for server owners to do if they choose, not something that should be done by default. 

What I added in my 1.7.10 fork was the respawning of resources at a very low rate. This was a config for debris, berry bushes and seaweed. I plan to include this in the 1.12+ version. In addition I’d link respawn to spawn protection so they did not regenerate in player bases. 

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4 hours ago, Stroam said:

Feast or famine scenarios are only bad if you are unable to overcome the obstacle such as at the beginning of the game.

Well, a true feast or famine is like rock salt or flux stone.  You have 0, or you have an infinite amount.  So it goes from being that valuable commodity you want very badly, to being an infinite commodity that is essentially value-less.   This is bad for the game regardless (imagine if you could find entire biomes of copper or iron).  The clay situation in 1.7.10 isn't truly that, it's just a resource similar to others - present some places, not in others - but the immediate starting need means it shouldn't be entirely missing in large areas, except maybe deserts.  Even a newb could pretty easily logically come to the conclusion that deserts don't have clay, and decide to either accept the challenge, or roll a new world.

It is nice to know there'll be some 'out of the box' server options built in this time.  Please build in some kind of merchant support!

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Very interesting. I look forward to seeing what you can do with that.

My own suggestions:

1) travel options:

  • boats and ships would be fantastic since the oceans are so vast (look to Cuchaz's ships mod for a really good implementation http://www.cuchazinteractive.com/ships/ )
  • Various carts with various capacities from a hand cart to one which needs donkeys or even horses to pull. This also makes for a good reason to build roads.

2) a real technology progression in armor and weapons:

  • Copper can only make the basics - javelin, hammer, dagger/knife, axe. Linen gambesons and round shields are the extent of armor. (of course, we would need flax in the game to make linen. hint, hint.)
  • Bronze can be used to make a shortsword and some basic armor - breastplate, helm, shin guards. Tower shields are available.
  • Iron begins to accelerate tech, can now make better weapons like the broadsword, warhammer, battleaxe, and poleaxe. Mail and heater shields can now be crafted. Longbow comes in. Perhaps some basic quality of life devices now.
  • Steel gets to the endgame of technology - longswords, halberds, war axes. Full plate becomes available. Things like powered (by wind, water, or livestock) bellows and anvil hammer become available. Recurves and crossbows come in.

3) Coinage made from precious metals (platinum, gold, silver, copper) to support player economies. Gives a sink for some of it and a use for platinum.

4) Different kinds of meals, not just salad and sandwich. Soups/stews and platters would be a good addition.


Just some random ramblings at 4AM. See if any of it sticks.

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On 6/16/2018 at 5:40 AM, Darmo said:

The immediate starting need means it shouldn't be entirely missing in large areas, except maybe deserts.

I think that this is mainly the problem. Clay is just essential. There is no substitute to it early on. For example, if you wish to carry drinking water early, you need clay (as far as I remember). This would make escaping or surviving in the desert many times harder.  So, the best solution could be just to have alternatives to clay, at least in core survival aspects like carrying water and store food. 

 

By the way, clay in deserts... totally dependent on the type of desert, and even sandy deserts may have clay (rare, way more rare than water). 

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If i can suggest to replace clay, and not to make it universal on any biome who is not reallist.

Their is a way to make pots with lime or bone meal.

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On 6/20/2018 at 10:08 PM, MonyClair said:

If i can suggest to replace clay, and not to make it universal on any biome who is not reallist.

Their is a way to make pots with lime or bone meal.

This might be more time consuming for the developers, and I wonder about availability of the resources you named. Bones can be obtained from animals, but that is not good for servers, as it results in quick animal extinction.

Where would lime come from?

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On 6/16/2018 at 1:01 PM, Gwtheyrn said:

Very interesting. I look forward to seeing what you can do with that.

My own suggestions:

1) travel options:

  • boats and ships would be fantastic since the oceans are so vast (look to Cuchaz's ships mod for a really good implementation http://www.cuchazinteractive.com/ships/ )
  • Various carts with various capacities from a hand cart to one which needs donkeys or even horses to pull. This also makes for a good reason to build roads.

2) a real technology progression in armor and weapons:

  • Copper can only make the basics - javelin, hammer, dagger/knife, axe. Linen gambesons and round shields are the extent of armor. (of course, we would need flax in the game to make linen. hint, hint.)
  • Bronze can be used to make a shortsword and some basic armor - breastplate, helm, shin guards. Tower shields are available.
  • Iron begins to accelerate tech, can now make better weapons like the broadsword, warhammer, battleaxe, and poleaxe. Mail and heater shields can now be crafted. Longbow comes in. Perhaps some basic quality of life devices now.
  • Steel gets to the endgame of technology - longswords, halberds, war axes. Full plate becomes available. Things like powered (by wind, water, or livestock) bellows and anvil hammer become available. Recurves and crossbows come in.

3) Coinage made from precious metals (platinum, gold, silver, copper) to support player economies. Gives a sink for some of it and a use for platinum.

4) Different kinds of meals, not just salad and sandwich. Soups/stews and platters would be a good addition.

These are interesting suggestions, but, apart from better behaving boats, they are extensions, not "simple changes".

1) Roads and carts are a nice idea for a mod. Add a "road" block that characters and animals move quicker on, then add carts and you have a very nice transportation mod. Ships could also be a part of it.

2) We kind of already have progression in armor and weapons, as higher tier metals give more durable items, with higher damage or armor values. I agree that maybe copper isn't durable enough for items like swords, but then copper chisel is even less realistic and we need chisel early on, unless we give up on the requirement of smooth stones for grinding stuff... It could be reworked, the whole dependency tree of items in TFC, but then it's not such a "simple" change. Maybe the port developers could comment on that, how they see it.

3) Nice idea for a mod too.

4) Nice idea for a mod too.

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